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Subscribe72 Gallon Bowfront Setup Log
tetratech
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LF
My current tank parameters this morning and this evening were
ph 6.6 / 6.5
kh 3 / 3
c02 24ppm / 28ppm
po4 1ppm / 0.25ppm
no3 10ppm / 10ppm

If this is accurate, my po4 was sucked up but not really nitrate. Could be misleading if tank is still cycling and producing nitrate.

It's interesting to note that we each have hit a snag in our setups. You with so many flavors algae and me with tinted green water. Let's see:

LF - More light, more ferts, more plants, no biofilter at startup
TT - Less light, less ferts, some biofilter (eco-complete that contains live Heterotrophic Bacteria)



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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I understand where tetra is going.

Yes I used to run Co2 24/7. I hasten to add this was purely for convenience rather then avouiding pH shifts or such. I don't have a solenoid so it was just simpler to leave the Co2 running all the time.

I've since moved away from that. I now kind of do half of what tetra is doing. I switch on the Co2 a few hours before lights on and switch off imeddiately after lights out (sometimes an hour before lights out , more on that later). This is, again, for no other particuilar reason other then convenience. I still don't have a solenoid. So I manually switch on/off the co2 my self. The reason it gets switched on a few hours before lights on is that's when I leave for work ! I know one day I'm going to run out the door to the office and forget to switch on the Co2 so a solenoid valve is definately on the shopping list (my birthday tomorrow guys, now's your chance to make an old man happy ) . I could get around this by leaving the Co2 on but put the reactor on a timer, only problem is I've noticed if I switch off the powerhead attached to the reactor, when I switch it back on the powerhead won't run unless I take it off the reactor and klet it get started. I don't trust this so leave the reactor running 24/7 and just switch on off the gas supply.

Getting back to the point in hand, the reason I changed to this way of running Co2 was that I noticed if I only had the Co2 running with the lights I could really pump in Co2 heavy during the day, then by switching off at night it was giving a lot more safety margin comfort to the fish. If I was to run at the high bubble rate I run now 24/7 I'm pretty certain I'd have a lot of dead fish.

During the day my pH is anywhere from 6.6 - 6.4 so I have 30-40ppm of Co2. Fish are fine during the day (plants are consuming Co2 and giving out O2) but if I run this rate during the night the fish how signs of discomfort within a couple of hours.

I'm getting much better results this way. With the high Co2, plants are definately more lush, BBA is knocked out I don't get a speck on the Anubias anymore.

One surprising thing I noticed: even though I switch off the Co2 immedtiately after lights out the pH hardly shifts at all ! My ph out of the tap is about 7.4 so I was expecting a big upward swing when the Co2 was off. That didn't happen ! It will still be close to 6.6 in the morning. I guess with running so high during the day there is still a good bit in solution in the water, this plus the co2 production at night is keeping the pH remarkably stable.

So based on my own experience and observations I'd say there nothing wrong with starting up a few hours before lights on, in fact it would be a good thing the plants are ready to go as soon as lights on. But if the reason for running the Co2 a few hours after lights out is the fish, I'd say it's actually safer to turn off Co2 immediately upon lights out ! Especially if you're running a high rate during the day (tetra is running about 5bps, similar to me), I think the risk of ODing the Co2 and harming the fish is much greater then the risk of a pH shift. As I said, from my own experience, if the Co2 is a good rate during the day, the pH won't shift much if at all during the night.

I definately won't be going back to 24/7 running.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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If this is accurate, my po4 was sucked up but not really nitrate


Sorry just saw the latest post.

The numbers make some sense. PO4 really really pushes Nitrate uptake. With your PO4 so low Nitrate uptake will drop.

Also bear in mind the lower your nitrate the more dodgy the test kits get. You may have a lot less NO3 then you think.

This is line with what predicted yesterday, with that kind of growth, you are in real danger of bottoming out. I'd go back up to the normal EI dosages. Assuming you are convinced that it's nothing to do with the GW ???

BTW, the plants look great. You have a real hold on trimming techniques, something I'm lousy at



Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

Interesting and nicely detailed entry about your CO2 routine. It almost convinced me to start up my CO2 a little earlier, but I will think about it some more first. Also, I would need to get another timer and plug first, this would be then the 4th timer on the tank.

“my birthday tomorrow guys”

Now this revelation made me really mad . I was planning since a week to create a surprise “Happy Birthday” entry for you, and now you took all the fun out of it. Well, I will have another chance next year .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Well let me simply say "HAPPY BIRTHDAY". I feel like I should get you something with all the help you've given me. Well maybe I'll think of something (Got some nice willow branches).

Anyway, my thought with the co2 on the backend was what Bensaf said. The co2 concentration will be ready for the plants. The continuing of the co2 after lights off, doesn't concern me because it's only a few hours (not sure, but does plant usage stop immmediately with no light or is there some lingering usage. Another thing with my setup is that I actually have alot of surface agitation,(probably too much) with my return running a little above the water line. My cheap ladder diffusor (original one from hagen kit) seems to be doing a pretty good job. Even with the surface agitation, I'm holding about 25 to 28 ppm.

I'll have to stay on top of my dosing. I'm really getting sick of testing though, especially when you can't believe the results. Still vexed by this GW thing, but reading threads on APC should me it's not all that uncommon and it seems most people cured it with lights out and slowly brining their lights back up. The willow branches are really rooting. I wonder if they are sucking up more po4 than no3. I have to see if they help clear the water, but that's another thread.

You too kind about the Pruning. Let's see how my tank looks in 2 months.




Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 05:49

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Here's a couple of pics of the new fish. Bensaf can you ID these for me. Are they definitely Beckford. Many times LFS has them mislabeled.



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tetratech
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And the Black Neons amongst the willow.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I like the one Neon who is looking into the camera.

I can see him think “What the heck is going on here?”

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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A list , a list

- Actually the plants will probably switch off well before lights off. When do your Rotalas fold up and close shop for the day ? Mine do a hour or so before lights out. This basically the plant done with photosynthesis for the day. I'd assume at that stage it's not consuming anymore Co2.

- Yep thems definately Beckfords. They'll color up real good in a couple days. You'll see alot more gold and the red and white on the fins will get much more intense. Then you'll see their true beauty. How many did you get? Let us know how you like them.

- Ingo, aw shucks, I didn't think anybody cared . Not even sure if the wife remembered. Anyway you've really pleasured me

- Testing is a pain in the rear. I'm sure you're getting a real feel now for how the plants react as you vary dosages, make changes etc. Trust your eye and watch the plants, keep an eye on pearling etc. Looking at the tank is alot more fun then staring at a test kit changing color

I'm feeling proud that my nephews are all grown up now


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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“Anyway you've really pleasured me”

Glad I could help

And sure do I care about your birthday as for the next 1.5 months you are going to be a year older than I am .

With regards to plants closing shop for the night – my Egeria Najas even let their heads hang down before the lights go off.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Looks like I'm the baby of the group and already a fish master.



Last edited by tetratech at 18-Oct-2005 16:48

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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It seems like a quiet day on FP. I guess Bensaf took many members to celebrate his birthday. I'm actually kinda miffed I thought Bensaf would be celebrating the big day right here with me. He's probably hitting every pub in town and you know those senior discounts are hard to pass up. And after the "you've really pleasured me" thing with Littlefish, who knows where he is.

Anyway because of all the help you gave me I'd like to dedicate the following pics to you for your birthday. Without you and your constant meddling in my tank affairs these pictures would never have been possible.

First pic is day 1


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Last edited by tetratech at 19-Oct-2005 21:38
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tetratech
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Day 12



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tetratech
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Day 24 - Bensaf's Birthday

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tetratech
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Wisteria Grove. My bolivian swishes around in here like a clownfish in an anenome.



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tetratech
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Here's a closer look of my main area. Everything looks nice and lush, healthy. The magic of EI.



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tetratech
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Here's an even closer look of my stargrass and rotala. I like the way the stargrass works it's way around the rocks and hardscape.



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Last edited by tetratech at 19-Oct-2005 21:53
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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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And finally. I hoped you "pearled all nite Bensaf" Happy Birthday.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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Gets better every time . Personally, I still think the lobelia should be moved closer towards the center, as it looks out of place in it's current placement.

In any case, what's the complete current stocking of the tank?
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bensaf
 
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Thanks for the dedication.

Glad my "meddling" was of some help.

It looks real good, and as noodles said just keeps getting better.You can trim mine anytime.Errr...tank that is

You've done a superb job on the shaping and grooming.

You should be proud of that tank.




Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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"It looks real good, and as noodles said just keeps getting better.You can trim mine anytime.Errr...tank that is "

good lord.
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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

I agree that it is becoming a very nicely arranged environment , albeit one that is not easy to maintain though.

If only the Hairgrass would start filling in some more. Mine doesn’t grow at all; it is barely hanging on to its original size.

And that is a very nice close-up of your Rotala.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Thanks for all your nice comments

Cup_of_Lifenoodles:
Unfortunately the lobelia is being used as a salad bar by my bristlenose. As far as stocking:
Fish wise:5 black neons, 3 pencilfish, 2 rummys, 1 bolivian ram, 1 cory, 7 otos, 2 bristlenose
Plant wise: Stargrass, rotala, wisteria, dwarf hairgrass and a little java moss. I like big groupings of fewer species. I think it will show off a big school of fish better. I would like to have 30 or more of one species eventually.

Bensaf:
Thanks for the trimming accolades. I also as mentioned have only a few species, probably makes it simplier to do.
I'm starting to get some comments when people walk in my house "wow what a tank", "are those plants real" and my favorite was made by my wife a few days ago. "I really like the way the green stripe on the black neons matches the plants"

LittleFish:
The hairgrass I believe is being slowed by the BN uprooting and particles do some to attach to the leaves especially if the are too tall. I've been trimming any tall leaves and vaccuming them out.

albeit one that is not easy to maintain though
In what way do you think LF?


Last edited by tetratech at 20-Oct-2005 12:36

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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my favorite was made by my wife a few days ago. "I really like the way the green stripe on the black neons matches the plants


Not quite "your eyes are like dark limpid pools I could lose myself in", but eh we'll take it. We are a sad bunch of men.

LF,

Indica and Stargrass are about the 2 easiest stem plants to maintain. They take a good hack with the trimming scissors very well. The more you trim the bushier they get. A lot of other stem plants wouldn't take as kindly to such treatment.




Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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We are a sad bunch of men
Actually I prefer "manchild" thank you!

Is it true that the rotala will only grow 12" to 15" max. A few more cuttings I'll probably have to replant tops.

I also didn't realize the pencilfish like the algae. See them picking at the stop algae on the glass (yes LF I do have some algae).



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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No it'll grow much taller then that and then just continue along the surface. If you let it hit the surface it should produce a lot of side shoots.

I thought I mentioned the Pencilfish would keep pecking at the algae (or maybe you guys gave up on listening to me), but yeah they'll poke at all day , they're too small to make much of a dent though.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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“albeit one that is not easy to maintain though
In what way do you think LF?”


Well, my thoughts plant by plant

Wisteria – Will eventually grow taller and create a stem like structure (although I am not too experienced with this plant). This would take away from the focus area.
Star Grass – By constantly trimming the tops, that upper area will get very dense. The bottom parts (stems and lower leaves) will not receive enough light anymore and turn black and die off.
Rotala – I though I even saw this one mentioned by Bensaf somewhere, but here is my observation. Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings. That process could be a little tricky as it is in such a tight spot between the rocks.

All plants – grow fast, aka high pruning frequency.

And no – we are not a sad bunch of men – we are as interesting as it gets

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Wisteria – Will eventually grow taller and create a stem like structure (although I am not too experienced with this plant). This would take away from the focus area. It's funny I mentioned in my 12g thread that the wisteria is not making a move to the surface. the stems are creeping along the substrate. I've been cutting this plant down so long, that I think "I trained this puppy"

Star Grass – By constantly trimming the tops, that upper area will get very dense. The bottom parts (stems and lower leaves) will not receive enough light anymore and turn black and die off.
Yes that is true, and what I've been doing and it might be too early to tell if it will work long-term, but in addition to shearing on the top I've been triming about two-thirds down some stems from the center to make sure light gets in. We'll see.

Rotala – I though I even saw this one mentioned by Bensaf somewhere, but here is my observation. Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings. That process could be a little tricky as it is in such a tight spot between the rocks.
Yes, this I believe will happen, but the area behind the rock is actually quite large and accessable. It's tough to tell from the photo.

Last edited by tetratech at 21-Oct-2005 07:19

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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Constant trimming will make the stems look ragged and at some point the stems will have to be taken out and replaced with new cuttings. That process could be a little tricky as it is in such a tight spot between the rocks.


It's relative. All stem plants will end up looking ragged at the bottom at some stage and need to be uprooted and the bottoms discarded. Some can go quite a long period before having to do this.

Some stem plants need to be uprooted everytime they are trimmed and the bottoms cut off. Plants like Cambomba, Myrio, Ammania,R.Macrandra. This is mainly an appearance thing. These plants are used and look best for their strong vertical shape. Cutting the top off just ruins that shape. Some, like the Ammania and Cambomba don't produce new shoots easily if at all, so topping is not a good thing.

Plants like the Indica and Stargrass take the haircuts relatively well,and get bushier, which is what we want from them, so you can go longer without having to uproot. If the bottoms are well hidden and still get a good amount of light you may never have to uproot them.

You need to bear these things in mind when choosing a location for the plant. Stems should be planted in areas that are easy to access. The plants around them should be carefully chosen, to avoid too much shading or maintaining a certain height to cover the stems behind.

Certain stem plants produce massive root systems, Reineckii and , surprisingly, Macrandra have root systems like a Sword plant, give them some space otherwise everytime you uproot them you also uproot whatever is too close to them.

One of the things I really like about working with a sand substrate now is that it's much easier to maintain. Uprooting a plant doesn't make a huge mess like before and rooting a plant is 100 times easier then using bigger gravel. Just push it in and it's stuck there


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf,

Thanks for your detailed explanation on the trimming routine that is required for the various stem plants, in particular your information on the R.Macrandra. Guess I will have quite some re-planting to do with that one . BTW, mine is just starting to branch about half way up. Wouldn’t that ruin the vertical growth appearance?

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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You need to bear these things in mind when choosing a location for the plant. Stems should be planted in areas that are easy to access. The plants around them should be carefully chosen, to avoid too much shading or maintaining a certain height to cover the stems behind.
That's why I'm still a beginner when it comes to aquascaping. There really is a lot that goes in to selection, location. Although I do believe the general statement (Bensaf I think you said this) that if the plants are healthly you could almost drop them in anywhere and it's going to look beautiful, compared to a tank where the plants are unhealthly and located very strategically.

One of the things I really like about working with a sand substrate now is that it's much easier to maintain
I must confess that I didn't realize you were using sand in your "Amano Paradise" setup. The grain size looks very large. How does it compare to the pool filter sand.

Last edited by tetratech at 22-Oct-2005 07:27

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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How does it compare to the pool filter sand.


Well it's silica sand hence the larger grain size. I'm not using fine beach sand. It's just ths same as the pool filter sand I think.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Day 28 (1 Month) Update:

Pros - plants, hairgrass growth, water clarity
Cons - Spot algae on glass, some black on stargrass, hairgrass damage by BNs.

I think I need to trim more frequently, I'm not used to all this growth.

Also the rock to the right in front of the stargrass, I'm starting to dislike. I think it's too evenly cut and I need a more natural looking piece.

Here's the fist pic a full shot:



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Last edited by tetratech at 23-Oct-2005 09:26
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Last edited by tetratech at 23-Oct-2005 12:14

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This shot shows the slope I created from center to side.



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tetratech
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This is a closer look at the Hairgrass, it's definitely coming in despite the damage from my BN. Look at BN squatting on my nice grass.



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tetratech
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A pic of the wisteria. Growth continues to be wide and low some of the leaves are hugh. Don't you love the Willow root section of my tank. I'm thinking new biotope.



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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

I like the growth in your tank. Spot algae are normal for a healthy tank and should be taken care off during your weekly water change.

I see that your hairgrass is growing, mine just ain’t .

About the rock and how even it looks: Instead of replacing it, have you thought about adding some moss to it? That would look nice (IMHO).

Say, did you get your ballast and if so then how long are the second lights on for? I upped mine from 3 hours to 5 just about 4 days ago (after I reduced them from 10 to 3 about 10 days ago).

Ingo


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tetratech
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LF,

SPOT ALGAE
Yes, been doing scraping it during WC and I have some very fat and jolly otos in my tank. I also picked up two Yamato shrimp, haven't seen them since I put them in.

HAIRGRASS
Is growing, but like the moss everything get's stuck in it.
so it's alot of maintenance. BTW do you know if hairgrass sends out runners below and above the subtrate.
ROCK
I have thought about that but as I stated above the java moss has been a pain in my tank. But I might give it another try under present tank conditions. Also my theory with the most relates to obviously water movement. In our co2 tanks we aren't over filtered. Not much water movement good for co2 as far as service agitation. So because there's no strong water current and I believe the nutrients contribute to the amount of stuff getting stuck in the moss. BTW is your moss doing better based on the add'l powerheads or do you think it's because the algae has slowed.
BALLAST
I actually ended up buying a new light (Coralife dual 192watt 6700k) because the ballast was going to cost me $80 and my bulbs were old and they go for around $40 each so the whole reflector wasn't much more. BTW the quality of the coralife over the current usa is much better. As far as light cycle I have 96watts from 9 to 8 and 192 watts from 12 to 4 right now. Similiar to you.

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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

I have by now 8 Otos in my tank and I am lucky if I see 6 of them. It drives me crazy if I can’t account for all habitants as I always worry they might be dead somewhere in the plants.

My hairgrass seems to have some strings with nodes that grow straight into the water current, but don’t have any ground contact. Is that the runners and if so what do I do with it? I find these strings now also tangled in other plants.

I don’t know if and why my moss is doing better, although it looks better as most of the covering brown slime is gone (ran out of gas ). It could have something to do with the current but the event coincided with the decline in silica. BTW current, I don’t think that a current in the tank would cause too much CO2 exchange as long as you don’t create any ripples on the surface. I either place my power heads so far down that this is avoided or I point the nozzle slightly downwards.

Glad you got a new light, when I was shopping I also considered a Current fixture. Somehow I ended up with the CoraLife as it was a) cheaper and b) I already have a 65W unit on my 29G that I am very happy with. I will have to order another set of legs though as one broke off during my plant work this weekend – the unit slipped too far back and all the weight ended up on that leg, so it caved in. I am not too wild about an outside Reactor as it shows over the top of the tank frame (at least the one that the Doctors sell). Neither do I desire heaters that are built into the filter for cost reasons; the ones that are inline seem to be interesting though.

Ingo


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tetratech
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My hairgrass seems to have some strings with nodes that grow straight into the water current, but don’t have any ground contact. Is that the runners and if so what do I do with it? I find these strings now also tangled in other plants.

Where the nodes there when you planted the hairgrass? If yes, those you need to cut. I thinks that emersed growth. Either way the hairgrass needs to be cut to help horizontal runner growth.

Yes you are right about the co2, As long as the current is under water. I was just making the point that we tend to have last current in our big tanks because of the tank size in relation to our gph rates.

I actually only purchased a 36" fixture for my 48" tank. The light is setting on tow plastic bumpers atop the glass canopy. The 48" fixture would have given me about 3.7 wpg. I did not want that much. Speaking of canopies, are you eventually going to get the full canopy on top of the tank. It really finishes it off and isolates the tank itself, because the escaping light is not seen.

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tetratech,

No way am I getting a full canopy for my tank. I love the high tech look of the light unit hovering over the tank (I have the clear legs that are less visible). The only light that escapes my light unit is the one that is reflected of the glass top and I don’t mind that at all.

Full canopies, IMHO, also appear way too bulky and give the tank an over-head, if you know what I mean.

Ingo


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tetratech
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Whoa, someones does like full canopies
Actually what I meant with light escaping, is that the canopy blocks all light from your eye other, so the only thing that you look at is the inside of the tank. Best way to describe it is when your in a museum or public aquarium the lights are dimmer and the exhibits really stand out. Downside obviously is you have to remove to work on the tank. I had one on my 46g and it looked really good, then again my tank is in my kitchen, so I have to appease the wife.

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LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah – I love full canopies ]:|]:|]:|



If I had the spare change I would buy one of these fancy light units that are suspended from the ceiling.

Ingo



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tetratech
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Don't get me excited.

Now your making me think of an open topped aquarium with the driftwood and plants coming above the water line with the suspending Halide lighting. Stop please, stop

Last edited by tetratech at 24-Oct-2005 12:51

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Actually here's a pic of my old 46 showing some of the canopy. Man look at all the java moss.

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LITTLE_FISH
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You for sure had a nice moss carpet going

What is that plant in the back there, Narrow Leaved Ludwigia?

And look at that, hm, lovely huge block on top of the tank.

Ingo


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tetratech
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That was all polysperma in the back and a few stems of Cabomba in front of the diffusor.

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Hi,
This is what I did to my StarGrass by clipping it
very very short, and then snipping some at about half
way to the surface.

Frank


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Frank that looks really nice. How soon after you clipped was that picture taken. The leaves look much smaller than mine and also have a pinkish hue to them. Your Stargrass almost looks like me rotala.



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bensaf
 
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Your Stargrass almost looks like me rotala.


It is - it's Rotala Rotundifolia.

Water flow is important for spreading nutrients and Co2 enriched water around the tank. A small pump or 2 will do the job without increasing surface agitation.Doesn't need to be blasted out, very small pump will do it, just move the water around without blowing the plants out of the substrate. Having the spraybar on the side glass and blowing aross the lenght of the tank works well. Some plants, like Java Fern (and Moss) do better with a gentle current.



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tetratech
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Bensaf,
Thanks for the reality check. I thought I was losing it. That must be the stargrass on the bottom really cut short.

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hey tetratech,

I have to ask you again about the Purigen.

As I am going to place an order with Big Al's tomorrow anyways, I am considering getting some Purigen. Despite your tellings, here is part of the description from Big Al's:

"Purigen removes proteins, nitrites and nitrates, ammonia, and a broad spectrum of organics, yet its impact on trace elements is minimal."

So it takes out the nitrates? I thought you said it didn't.

Your confused (as usual ) log buddy,

Ingo

EDIT: and what is the size of the bag that you used for it?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 25-Oct-2005 12:56


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Untitled No. 4
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Sorry, I'm not tetratech, but I will try to answer.

Purigen doesn't remove nitrates as such, it just removes nitrogenous waste which would otherwise break into ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It shouldn't remove all of it anyway, and it doesn't remove nitrate when dosed as KNO3.

What you do have to pay attention to is that Purigen shouldn't be used with amine based water conditioners. Actually, you can use it, but only once as amines bind to the Purigen and then recharging will make it toxic for reuse. If you use Prime then you need not worry. I don't know about other conditioners.

Other than that I think it's an excellent product, but that's just me and what do I know?
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FRANK
 
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Yup,
It's rotilla, sold as Stargrass, and thus embedded within
the grey matter incorrectly.
In any event, I treated as a Bonsai plant. I kept trimming
and trimming it I would trim a stem, and it would grow
a couple of replacement stalks which in turn were trimmed
etc. Eventually I wound up with that "ball" or mass of
plant.

Frank


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LF,

Pretty much what UNTITLED said. It removes waste before it breaks down into nh3,n02,n03. Do I know if it's doing anything? Absolutely NOT. Is my water clear? Absolutely YES, but I also have 5 willow branches and I'm dancing around the tank once a day. I bought a 100ml pouch, that's suppose treat 100 gallons. It is also reuseable. They also sell it loose that you have to put it in your own fine size filter bag.

Frank,

They sold rotala as stargrass. Now I've heard everything.

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bensaf
 
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I'm dancing around the tank once a day.


Careful, people, the boy's losing it :%):%)

Got this strange picture of tetra in a grass skirt, bone through the nose,the words fish master daubed on his body with Purigen residue, spinning and chanting around the tank while offering sacrifices of KNO3 and Flourish to the Planted Tank Gods and trying to invoke Tombarrus the algae avenging demon from the netherworld.

It ain't pretty.



Ok, suddenly I'm not sure who's losing it


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

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Bensaf,

Don&#8217;t worry &#8211; you are not losing it. I am sure you lost it already a long time ago.

Untitled and tetratech &#8211; Thanks, so I will go ahead and order it, maybe it does something.

Ingo



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Got this strange picture of tetra in a grass skirt, bone through the nose,the words fish master daubed on his body with Purigen residue


Thanks Bensaf. That's a great idea for my halloween costume this year. Think people will get it? Well I'm doing it I don't care what the wife says.

Untitled and tetratech &#8211; Thanks, so I will go ahead and order it, maybe it does something
I would try the dance first in full costume.

Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 13:20

Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 19:23

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tetratech
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Update 31
Everything is going good fish and plant wise. So since I'm still waiting for Bensaf to post some new pics of his "Bensaf does Amano" tank here's the same boring pic of mine. I personally think Bensaf has an algae problem and is waiting for it to clear up. :88)

LF I think your right about the Stargrass, my grouping to the right grows better than the one to the left and it's the one that gets some current from the return which is located above the rotala and angled to the right.

I've also decided to start growing the wisteria to the left side too. I think some green was needed near the rocks and wood over there. The rotala is growing so fast it literally needs to be trimmed everyday.

tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 19:48
[/font]

Last edited by tetratech at 26-Oct-2005 19:51

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tetratech
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Pic 98.8k doesn't go through.




tetratech attached this image:


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Cup_of_Lifenoodles
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Any chance on more color variation, not that it doesn't look great already?
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tetratech
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Hey Cup,

I might put something inbetween all those rocks in front of the main grouping. There's actually dwarf hairgrass there that is coming in, but it's tough to see.

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bensaf
 
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I personally think Bensaf has an algae problem and is waiting for it to clear up.





Sorry to disappoint you. Nope, no algae. Just been real busy. Have a long vactaion here next week, it's the end of Ramadhan, which is like Christmas here in Indonesia, so it's been hectic getting everything in work cleared up before the shutdown.

Plus I made a few small changes. Move the Reineckii further back, it was too distracting were it was and put some Rotala Rotundifolia in it's place, it's about 2 or 3 trimmings before it can even bedin to compete with yours and Franks !

Also added some Rotala Macrandra to the right side to break up the divison between stems and rossettes. That stuff grows like a weed, goes from a few inches to the surface in a week ! Lots of hyperactive pearling.

So I get one area trimmed, later trim another area, by the time that's finished , the first area needs trimming. I'm like a dog chasing it's own tail.

Well I'll have plenty of time next week to whip it into shape, so pics will be coming.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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LF I think your right about the Stargrass


Glad I am right about at least one thing

Bensaf - your tank must be like the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge. They start painting on one end and once they reach the other they have to start all over again . Good that you have vacation next week so you can spend a lot of time on here to get our tanks up to snag .

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 27-Oct-2005 03:41


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bensaf
 
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Errr....maybe I should elaborate.

The end of Ramadhan means the bars are open fully again.
Guess where I'll be ?:88)


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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tetratech
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Oh come Bensaf, I'm sure your scaping skills are still above average even after a night at the pub. :%)

Small gliTCH I gots ICH.
Noticed at on my Black Neons this morning. I thing it's from a small drop maybe 1 to 2 degrees overnite. Heaters at 78f but room temp dropped to 70f. I also thing I'm cutting it thin with my one 250 watt visi-therm. Should probably put another heater on the other side. I've already dosed coppesafe at half strength and I'm raising temp a few degrees. Speaking of raising temp, do you guys raise the heater setting in colder weather?

Last edited by tetratech at 27-Oct-2005 12:51

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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

I seriously doubt that the Ich is from a slow drop in temps over night by 2 degrees. I am rather sure that you create a much faster temp change when you do a water change.

About heaters in winter: for some reason my tanks are getting warmer (78 up to 80 now).

I will elaborate more later, have to go to a meeting now&#8230;

Ingo

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NowherMan6
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Hey fantastic tank tetra, well done. My only comment is that, from that last pic you posted, it looks like that rock on the left side has a big afro

I'm sure once the hairgrass grows in it'll look much more proportional, but right now I can't look at it without picturing a green-haired Jimi Hendrix.

Sorry bout the ich, by the way. I luckily haven't gotten the stuff for over a year now. I'm pretty sure the temp treatment still applies even when outside temperature drops... but if anything it's all the more important to keep it constant. A second smaller heater on the other side may be a good investment, as you've said.


Back in the saddle!
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green-haired Jimi Hendrix

NowherMan, whatever your on, me, LF and Bensaf want some.

I think your talking about the big rock in the middle. There's actually three main rock pieces (might be tough to see dark pic). The rotala is growing so fast I can't even keep up with the trimming, it's definitely overdue.

Last edited by tetratech at 27-Oct-2005 13:11

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NowherMan6
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NowherMan, whatever your on, me, LF and Bensaf want some


I think I overdosed NO3 in my green tea this morning. Diagnosis - do a large water change, cut back on macros, shorten photoperiod.

And yes, I'm talking about the big rock towards the middle, the one with the rotala growing like mad... Hendrix Rock, if you will...

::ahem::

I'm actually kind of bummed I haven't been following along this Log more closely, there's some really good info in here. I'm talking about that info regarding green/ cloudy water being caused by ammonia and too much light. All along I - and I know many others - have been thinking it happens when there's too much NO3, or just too many nutrients hanging in the water column. I had one such problem several months back, and even running a diatom didn't help... it would come back in a matter of days. Then on a whim I added some hornwort and it was gone in a day. I thought it was because the hornwort was consuming excess nitrates, not excess ammonia... and here I must've been mini-cycling the whole time

Anyway, really great stuff you all have going on here. Very helpful.




Back in the saddle!
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bensaf
 
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I hope none of the "fishie" folks read this

I never treat Ich. Never had to. Not that I haven't had Ich in the tank, it just simply doesn't survive long.

Reason? The temperature. Living in the tropics I don't use a heater, quite the opposite I have to find ways to keep the water cool. I have a small fan attached to the top of the tank that runs for a few hours mid day to keep things cooled down.

If Ich ever shows up the fan goes off and the tank temp naturally rises to about 30o. This doesn't bother the fish at all, hey I'm in the tropics , if they couldn't take this natural rise from the outside temp they'd all be extinct by now.

Ich dissapears within 2 days, never ever gets out of hand, never more then a few spots. 2+ years never lost a fish to Ich. Usually only see it when new fish are introduced, even then it takes a week or so for the first spots to show up (so it may not be the temp drop in your case).

Most Ich meds and salt are very very hard on plants. The ones using dyes like Methylene Blue etc are lethal.

So I don't use meds just let the tank take care of it.

You find in a tank with a lot of healthy plants that fish rarely ever get sick. Their recovery time seems a lot quicker too. The high oxygenation, clean water, natural interactive environment and feeling of security that plants provide is an absolutely enormous factor in reducing stress and producing strong healthy happy fish.
Go to any planted tank specilist site and you will find very very few posts relating to sick fish.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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tetratech,

I would not recommend that you raise your tank temperature to 300 degrees, as Bensaf suggests

No seriously, I am sure you know all the things that are to be done to reduce the chance of a serious outbreak, like medicine, gravel vacuum (remove the &#8220;fallen off&#8221; stage), raised temperature. I wonder if you have the luxury to move the fish out of the tank (all of them) and treat in their temporary home. This way your plants will have no problems.

I had 2 Ich bouts in my 29G and treated with Quick Cure, both times without any losses (that I can directly attribute to the med). I used a &#188; dosage every other day for 2 weeks straight, with water changes on the days between dosing (including gravel vac). All plants in the tank did just fine, including my Rotala and Star Grass.

Once again though, I seriously doubt that a lowering of the temp over night by 2 degrees is a reason for an Ich outbreak &#8211; except if your fish are stressed for other reasons already and their immune system is way down. Temperature changes are a natural occurrence in every body of water, for example because of high sun vs. nighttime, or heavy rains, or snow melts in the mountains that carry cold water downstream. Did you ever have a power outage for a day/night? My tank dropped over 10 degrees last April with no consequence.

If the temp should be the trigger then I would say your fish are stressed for other reasons as well. One thing that I could think of is that you have very few hiding places for the Neons. Is any other fish chasing them? Also, the group of 5 is insufficient to give them a sense of security (just guessing).

Anyway, no matter what caused it, I hope you can beat it successfully.

Ingo


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I don't get ich, (sure fire way to get it!)

I run my tanks at around 79/80. which is probably too high, but everyone is growing and seem good.

I do have other disease problems though, random deaths and long sickness - although I more or less traced that back to water treatments and cleaning by the water company! I think high temps and stable fish populations(ie don't buy loads of news fish all at once)have a lot to do with not getting ich?

Actually the main reason why I am posting is cos I am going to the LFS today, new 6700k lights and loads of simple plants.

be prepared for questions boys!!!

GFG

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As was very surprised I got ICH. Could be the fish were sick when I got them. The tank is very lush, plants are pearling, no aggressive fish in the tank. LF I doubt if it's because I only have 5 neons (I think that's a stretch)
Temp had been a steady 78F and I noticed the other morning dropped to 76F. I didn't think in nature temp drops by 2F in a few hours.

Living in the tropics I don't use a heater, quite the opposite I have to find ways to keep the water cool
What temp fluctations do you have overnite, if any?


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What temp fluctations do you have overnite, if any?


It's goes from damn hot and humid to just hot and humid.

Only about 2 to 5 degrees tops. Very little seasonal change. We have hot and dry and hot and wet.

I suffer more then the fish.

The rainy season has just started. Tropical storm at 5 every evening like clock work. Quickly followed by a infestation of the insect du jour. I have a team of lizards running wild in the apartment to keep the insect population under control. I have had bats get into the bathroom. I found a snake outside the main door. Woke up morning after a night of heavy rain to find hundreds of fish flopping around the car park.I live outside town, it really is a jungle out there


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I have a team of lizards running wild in the apartment to keep the insect population under control. I have had bats get into the bathroom. I found a snake outside the main door. Woke up morning after a night of heavy rain to find hundreds of fish flopping around the car park.I live outside town, it really is a jungle out there
I'm very envious. I'm actually a big herp guy. I want to eventually do a paludarium, with chamelons in the branches above and fish swimming through the branches below. But for now it's just a dream.

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You can have my kitchen then. The biggest lizard lives under the stove, about 6 inches. One of them must have been breeding 'cos we're finding lot's of little one inchers around the apartment.

I don't mind them at all. They keep the bugs away. Haven't seen a cockroach in yonks. I'l take the lizards over the roaches anyday.


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Are you talking about "cicak", bensaf?
If so, I love them - they eat the mozzies and roaches. Well, except that one time when one dropped on my neck accidentally. Felt something cold and wiggly on the back of my neck - freaked me out a little.

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Day 34 Pic

I started adding wisteria and now stargrass to the left front rock area to spread the green alittle, but still keep the high in the focal point. This pick also shows the hairgrass coming in better, BN still trampling it. BTW - does dwarf hairgrass spread runners above substrate as well as below or is that my BN ruining.

Tank is looking good, except for some ICH. So far it's only affecting the Black Neons, dosing coppersafe and temp raised to 82f. Got a really high po4 reading last nite, like 5ppm. I give up. I've only been dosing the following.

1/4 tsp no3 twice/weekly
1/16 tsp po4 twice/weekly
Flourish 5ml once/weekly
Flourish postassium 2ml once/weekly

I know it's not the eco, I'm not a heavy feeder.



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Megil TelZeke
 
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IMe dwarf hairgrass spreads through runners that are extremely close to the suface, though i will occasionally send runner deep beneath the substrate. if they are above the surface it is more tha likely you BN fault.

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I think your right, the BN kinda sits on the grass and sucks on the leaves pulling them out. I might move him, but go try and catch him.

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Man tetratech,

It looks very nice, in particular because I can see your hairgrass carpet for the first time. Good idea to add some green to the left side.

About the phosphate, are you sure you have none in the tab water? If it isn&#8217;t the tab, the feeding, and the Eco Complete, then what is left there? Maybe the rocks? I have no idea either.

Good luck with the Ich,

Ingo


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Thanks Lf,

I've tested my tap p04 levels "0". I don't feed alot so I don't think it's the fish food, although I haven't been doing alot of heavy duty vaccumming with the water changes because oof the cycling and also because the eco is like sand in many parts of the tank. That and I've been doing 30% wc not 50%, so that might add up, but the way the plants are growing I'm still surprised.

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tetratech,

I did some calculations regarding your Phosphates and the info you provided. A few assumptions had to be made:

* based on Chuck&#8217;s Calculator, 1/16tsp of Phosphate (KH2PO4) dissolved in 72G concludes in 0.75ppm.
* Added twice per week concludes in 1.5ppm per week added.
* 1 - 30% Water Change per week (if done more often, values will be lower).
* Assumed is that the Phosphate dissolves equally with in the water column.
* Zero uptake is assumed (if uptake happens, values will be lower).

That said, I come to the conclusion that the maximum Phosphate concentration ever to be reached is 5ppm just before the water change. After that you reached equilibrium where addition and change is balanced. This point should be reached at 19 weeks.

If you tested your Phosphates before the water change (week 5) then a reading of 4.41ppm would be in line with this math example. If you tested after the water change then you should never have 5ppm.

Ingo

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Here is the same example, but with the water changes twice a week between the addition of Phosphates:

The maximum reading before water change should be a 2.5ppm.

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Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 30-Oct-2005 03:28
[/font]


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You people have too much time on your hands, honestly.

Either that or you really enjoy testing for phosphates (I won't knock it as I've never tried it) and discussing it in detail. Personally, I don't see any algae in your tank and I really don't understand why you keep testing it.
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I love discussing Phosphates

tetratech has a phosphate phobia (and I guess I do as well) based on his really bad experience with his initial Eco Complete substrate. I am sure he can, and will, tell you more about it.

I can tell you that my Phosphate issue is based on my readings of &#8220;The Krib&#8221; website, in particular the Collin Sears paper and the follow-up discussions. I know Bensaf says that the findings of these days are by now outdated, but it has a major impact on me.

Ingo


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LF,
Thanks for the analysis. So that does make sense mathematical, but I guess I assumed uptake would keep the po4 number always low. I have good plant health, etc, so is this further confirmation that the plants really only use a tiny amount or it's a bad test kit, although I've never had a problem with my po4 kit.

Another thing too, I have 5 willow branches, supposely sucking out nutrients and I'm still getting large po4 readings. I'm going to remove the branches and see if I get green water again.

Untitled:
We don't have too much time on our hands, what LF, Bensaf and myself do, we do for the good of all aquarists. We are martyrs for the rest of you, we sacrifice time with family, friends, etc. for the pursuit of perfection.




Last edited by tetratech at 30-Oct-2005 06:55

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I also love to spend time on my tank in the pursuit of perfection, or at least a pleasing result. But I was just wondering why you two are still so bothered about PO4 if you now have 5ppm PO4 and no algae?

I can offer some new topics for conversations if you're interested...
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Untitled,

Hm, when was the last time you looked at my log? No algae, I don't think so. Wanna have some of mine ?

I got the purigen, but I am too chicken to use it. I am afraid it would filter out the microscopic food for my Espei fry (as I don't feed them explicitly in any form).

Ingo

PS: Let's hear the other topics that you have in mind, I am always open to add to my confusion :%).


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I have had the worst day, got some great plants but have ended up getting stuck on stupid DIY rubbish and suffering seriously from owning too much worthless rubbish, I have whinged to my BF who was is and always will be lovely but this thread has just made me laugh and laugh and laugh.

THank you. seriously there are tears in my eyes.

my new plants - all low light and simple are currently in the bath.......... the tank they are to go in is in the loft. ho hum time is 11.30. pm

and me? I am taking apart a cupboard thing which has far too many screws.

but my BF, chocolate and this thread = light relief and happiness.

and some actually useful infomation.

GFG

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Little Fish,

I also look at your log and I do see the algae. That's why I didn't post my "don't worry about phosphates" in this one and not yours... However, if I'm not mistaken, you're getting much less algae now, don't you? I have the feeling that you're dealing with persistent algae rather than flourishing algea. In other words, your existing algae is surviving while no new algae is growing. If that is the case then all you need to do is get rid of what you have and no new algae will grow. Possible solutions (in a list form for your pleasure):
1. Removing it manually, a little everytime until your tank is clean.
2. Dipping plants in bleach solution to kill the remaining algae (wouldn't do that to your moss, though).
3. Overdosing flourish excel for about a week to kill the algae.

I must say that I've never tried overdosing excel myself. A warning: there are discussions going around whether this method is safe for your fish or not, and for a tank your size it's not going to be a cheap solution.

As for the Purigen, I think you give it much more credit than it deserves. It clears the water to an astonishing degree, but it doesn't sterilise, it's not a UV lamp.
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I'd like to dedicate a few pics to my Bolivian Ram. Many times this fish takes a back set to the German Blue Ram because of the it's lack of color. But lately my Bolivian has really been showing some nice color. This fish I believe is one of the best fish to have in a S.A. setup. It's colorful, hardy and has a great personally with alot of expression.

This pic shows off some of it's color:



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And this one shows some personally. A really great fish.



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bcwcat22
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Wow an amazing ram I wish mine was that colorful. What do you feed?

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bcwcat22
I basically feed tetra tropical crisps, hikari algae wafers and frozen blood warms once a week.
His colors might also been an indicator of water quality. A have a pretty big load of healthly plants right now which is probably making the water very o2 rich and good for the fish.

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bcwcat22
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algae wafers?? never thought of that. Mine has ok color but it is in kinda a small tank though I keep the water quality pretty well have had some serious buffer problems though. Thanks for the info I always want to improve my feeding variety whenever I can.

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I feed the wafers to the tank, cause I have bristlenose plecos, but I notice the ram eats alot of it too. In fact I see him trying to wrestle the sinking algae wafer away from the plecos.

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I'd like to point out that those phosphate charts assume that there is absolutely NO PO4 whatsoever in your tap water. That is quite an assumption to make, and one I wouldn't bet the farm on. I have enough phosphates in my tap water that I've never dosed ANY K2PO4 supplements. Some areas might have enough PO4 to cause problems in tanks.

Nice Ram by the way tetra...looks like quite a character!



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tetratech
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Matty,

Good point on the p04 charts. I actually have a zero po4 reading out of the tap, but I know many others do not.

Big question really is, how high is too high with po4. This seems to be of great debate, obviously the relationship to the no3 number is important, but to keep po4 of 5ppm you would technically need no3 of 50ppm and that would make me uncomfortable.

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Hi,
I have the Seachem Phosphate kit.
In it under "interpretation" it says:

"Phosphates are non-toxic to fish and most inverteberates,
but are ideally kept below 1 mg/L to minimize hair algae
growth. In freshwater, phosphates are not critical and
the allowable concentration is dependent on variables
such as nitrate, manganese, iron and vitamin
concentrations as well as the extent of use of live plants.
...... if excessive algae growth is not a problem then
the phosphate concentration may be considered as
acceptable."

That, sounds typically vague to me!

Frank


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LITTLE_FISH
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Typically vague, well said Frank

tetratech, as you know I have a tab phosphate of 2ppm, which is in line with Matty&#8217;s statement.

And based on Franks statement I am in a pickle as I have hair algae. I would assume that if I use a phosphate remover then I would not be able to add phosphates again. You know what I mean?

The Ram is gorgeous. How come that he looks so blue in the first picture? Does he switch colors? And your ability to take nice photos helps the selling of this fish as well .

Ingo


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tetratech
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Hi Frank,

It is kinda vague, but like everything else in life nothings black and white, it's shades of Grey.

Basically the po4 levels are o.k. as long as your other ferts are in the correct ratios to achieve a balance. (I'm starting to sound like Bensaf - :%)) As he would say look at the plants, what are they telling you.

Last edited by tetratech at 01-Nov-2005 10:06

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tetratech
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LF,

We posted at the same time.

PO4:
Yes I do remember you have 2pp out of tap, with 50% wc you probably don't have to dose alot. what is your number?

As far as the ram, at times it does look more colorful than other times and it's rich color in recent days is what inspired the pics. The blueish hue in the 1st photo is probably partly due to the camera, but the second photo does not due it justice colorwise. It has these flurescent red hues on it's fin edges that really seem to radiate at times. It actually has light blue dots on it's anal fin (visible in 1st pick).

But the personally of the fish, prancing up and down the front of the tank is very similiar to some of the big saltwater fish.





Last edited by tetratech at 01-Nov-2005 10:24

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LITTLE_FISH
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tetratech,

I don&#8217;t know my current number

Seriously, I haven&#8217;t tested in about 2 weeks, ever since I got the value down from 10ppm to 1ppm. But based on Bensaf&#8217;s advice I started to add phosphates again about 1.5 weeks ago, with a smaller dose than before.

I figured it cannot harm as I had just as much algae before reduction than after .

Yes, I saw the nice red fin edges on your Ram, they struck me as well .

Ingo


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tetratech
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I think there is so much to be said for consistency. There is a wide range of parameters that are acceptable, but when something changes too much from week to week, we open the door to problems, even if we are trying to correct a problem.

In other news:

Oh happy day. I caught the bristlenose pleco that has been destroying my hairgrass and pretty much ate my cardinalis plant. I moved him to another tank. I still have an albino bristlenose, but I haven't seen that fish causing any damage.

BTW - LF I caught the pleco by placing an algae wafer in front of a net and then scooping him out when he was munching on the wafer, it's also a great way to count your otos. I have seven and six of them came down to check out the algae wafer. But on the other hand if you have alot of yummy algae , they just might laugh if they see that puny little wafer. Just kidding, I couldn't resist.

Last edited by tetratech at 01-Nov-2005 16:11

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tetratech,

My Otos have never gone for the wafers that I offered them in the smaller tanks. The Platies were always faster .

And I don&#8217;t know if they went for them at night (the times I fed the wafers after lights out) as it was dark.

Ingo


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Wow, I drop wafers in during the day and the otos are basically all over it. The suspense in your other log is killing me.

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Day 38 Pic

I've extended the wisteria pretty much to the glass edge of the tank on both sides sort of tapering into the corners. I've also cut and planted some stargrass tops to give it a kind of cascading effect, since stargrass is so versatile. Still having trouble with some black leaves, but I undestand that is quite common with stargrass.





Last edited by tetratech at 02-Nov-2005 10:45

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Here's the pic:




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LITTLE_FISH
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Black leaves = not enough light

But I am sure you knew that . Keep an eye on it as it can be the beginning of whole stems and their leaves rotting away. I had this a few times when I place the Star Grass in &#8220;not so favorable&#8221; light conditions.

Otherwise it looks very nice, I think the Star Grass group on the left, just below the upper group, should grow up to form a combined group.

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Yeah, it's a great plant, but it's so delicate. I might try to angle the rotala on the left alittle more to let more light pass through to the stargrass. The lower stargrass on the left will eventually join with the main grouping (good catch) The front was only planted a few days ago and hasn't reach the height yet the front grouping on the right was planted about a week ago and has that nice cascading effect.



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Here's a pic of the java moss actually growing. I think it picks up some current in this spot.



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Here's a pic of one of my pencil fish. Bensaf was right these fish colored up, although they are a bit aggressive definitely pushing the bigger black neons around. Speaking of Bensaf?

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Oops, there's that Ram again. He's always getting in the way.



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Hey Tetra, does your Ram always stay that colour (with dark patches in his body), or do you find that the dark areas lighten up sometimes? Is he the only Ram in the tank? The reason I ask is because my Bolivian Ram pair darken up considerably (just like yours) whenever they're in spawning mood and remains so for about a week or two after they've spawned. At other times they look more like this]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/parents_babies.jpg[/link] and [link=this. Maybe you should get yours a mate if he doesn't already have one (and if you're interested in that sort of thing). Fascinating fish aren't they!

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He is doing the solo act right now, but I do plan on adding another one or two. I better get going on it, because he's about 18 months old. As far as the dark patches, I don't think those come and go. Your rams look young. How long have you had them. Mabye they get darker with age.

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Nice pictures tetratech,

I commented already on the Bolivian, but I wonder why your Pencils are aggressive. Maybe it has to do with the fact that you only have a few of them?

Are you still dealing with Ich? If not, how about adding a few more?

Ingo


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The pencils are interesting, they move around the tank and pick at everything. They like to swim through the rotala and pick at the leaves (probably some algae in there )

Two of them do a dance in the middle of the tank, they actually rub up against each other. I'm not sure if this is agression or mating ritual. I would like to get more, but I don't want a bunch of agressive fish scattered around the tank.

I beat the ich, but I did lose one black neon in the process. Treated with coppersafe and raised temp alittle and increased surface agitation. So far I've lost 2 rummynoses early on and the one black neon. When you dealing with tetras, your going to have some loses, their just to sensitive to many things.





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Day 41 Pic

Everything looking good, hairgrass continues to fill out. The Wistera really is growing horizontial I have not really had to cut any height down, just a few strays here and there. Added 2 more pencilfish for a total of 5.



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tetratech,

I am glad that you are still around, I thought already you and Bensaf jumped ship .

Your tank looks lovely, now I can really see a nice hairgrass carpet. I guess removing the BN helped.

Also, your group of Star Grass on the left is coming together nicely.

Keep them coming,

Ingo


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Nope, I plan on sticking around for a while. I was at Aquarium Adventure today and I was very tempted to buy alot of fish, but I left with just the two pencils.

They had some really nice bolivians and I was even thinking of getting a keyhole cichlid, but I wanted to read up more on sexing the bolivian and the compatability of the keyhole they also had some orange apistogrammas. These had flamming orange fins, but again, I didn't know enough. I almost bought 20 cardinals, but backed off because the tank is only 41 days old. Looking forward to seeing some nice new pics of your tank and the rescaping.



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tetratech,

Wise decision to wait on the purchases and to find out more about the individual fish first. Apistogrammas are a fish that I am interested in as well, but like you I know too little about them (and I am not buying any new fish now anyway).

So you have what now, 5 pencils? Why did you not beef up the group of Neons?

Ingo


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Yep, got 5 pencils now. They are definitely not real schoolers, but have a pecking order and the one with the most color seems to be the boss. Not sure what would happen if I had 20 of them. I do want one big school and I'm still not sure what that's going to be. The black neons are good because they seem hardy (lost one to ich) and are readily available at most lfs at very reasonable prices. The pencils I only see at aguarium adventure. I still like the cardinals but I'm not in the mood to buy 20 and end up with 15 after the acclimation etc. When I mean acclimation I mean from the time the lfs nets them and getting them realized into my tank.

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Yep, got 5 pencils now. They are definitely not real schoolers, but have a pecking order and the one with the most color seems to be the boss. Not sure what would happen if I had 20 of them. I do want one big school and I'm still not sure what that's going to be. The black neons are good because they seem hardy (lost one to ich) and are readily available at most lfs at very reasonable prices. The pencils I only see at aguarium adventure. I still like the cardinals but I'm not in the mood to buy 20 and end up with 15 after the acclimation etc.

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I got it,

did you post this one here twice so you have the honor of No. 300?

See, I got lucky with the decision of which fish should be the big school. My Espei took that job on themselves .

Oh wait a minute, I didn't want a big school

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did you post this one here twice so you have the honor of No. 300?
Tried to delete but I always get an error. Wow 300, maybe I'll post 120 pics to overtake your log

It's amazing how fast you use up real estate in your tank:

5 Pencils
4 Black Neons
7 Otos
3 Corys
2 Rummynoses
1 Albino BN
1 Bolivan Ram

25 Fish and I want a big school of at least 30 or more.




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Well,

Assuming you want to keep all the fish that you have right now, there are a few additions that you &#8220;should&#8221; make:

At least 3 more Cories
at least 2 more Black Neons
at least 4 more Rummies

equals another 9 fish, totals to 32 fish. Now you add 30 of a big school and you are for sure &#8220;nicely&#8221; stocked .

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Day 44 Pic:

My rotala starting to lose it's reddish pink hue, so I dosed more traces and it pinked up over the last couple of days as you could see in the pic.





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Here's a full tank shot as it sets in my kitchen. Taking from my kitchen table where I sit and ponder life, kids and aquaria



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hey tetra,

have you given any thought as to what you want that big school of 30 to be of?


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LF,
Actually I do agree with your fish additions. Now that I've removed the BN, I'm trying to determine how much damage if any the 3 corys are doing to the DH (dwarf hairgrass) This is the catch 22, what's more important the fish or the plants.

Nowhere,
I'm leaning toward cardinals, since nothing else I've seen will give me the same striking effect, but my tank isn't even 2 months old and cardinals are very sensitive to instability.

BTW - I have some wiggle room to move fish, because I have my 12gallon setup, which currently is housing 4 gold tetras, 1 bn and about 8 guppy fry.



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H. Difformis

I definitely see why this planted is called Difformis, I counted about 10 different leaf shapes. It is actually creeping to the front of my tank and when I cut it back I discovered hairgrass growing underneath it.



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Yeah tetratech,

Even in your picture I can see various leaf shapes.

Now, I have one comment to make about your tank. Whenever I looked at it in the past (and today), I somehow thought that something is missing and I never could put my finger on it. I think I found it &#8211; There is a rather limited sense of depth. Your growth is all along a parallel axis to the tanks back, at least the bright plants. I wonder what could be done to show the depth of the beautiful bowfront.

Ingo


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Interesting observation!
Actually might be hard to tell with the pics but my tank actually has alot of depth. I main area is almost a half circle cresting to within 5 inches of the bowfront of the tank with that smaller rock in between and in front of the center and right rocks. Also the driftwood is placed at 3 different depths from front to back to also give depth. I believe I need to get more green behind the driftwood since it's very dark and so is my background.

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but my tank isn't even 2 months old and cardinals are very sensitive to instability


Is your tank cycled, tetra?

See, I have a theory about this: I think some fish are hardier than we give them credit for. While it may be true that cardinals wouldn't survive the cycling conditions that WC's could stand, I have no doubt that they'd be able to handle the kind of "instability" that some say they couldn't.

I think if you hang around a site like this long enough, and take in enough info you eventually get to the point where you recognize what having an aquarium is all about: we care for and take care of water - the fish are incidental.

My point is - logs like this one show how careful you are about water (you read through a phosphate level spreadsheet for crying out loud ), so IMO you shouldn't be overly concerned with fish sensitivity. You - and many others here - pay more attention to water quality than 99% of people with aquariums, so whereas you might have some qualms about adding a certain type of fish because of stability issues, the average person - and the fish for that matter - would probably consider your conditions pristine. That's not to say that fish deaths won't happen, but most of those times it's out of our control (Calli's panda cory tank for example), so there's no point in worrying about those situations anyway. My REAL point is, I guess, if your tank is cycled, I don't think you should worry about adding those cardinals now if you want to.

Just my 2 cents anyway...


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What's wrong with my phosphate level spreadsheet ]:|



Ingo


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Nowher,

Thanks for you insight. I actually have had a long history with cardinals and did maintain a school of 12 in my 46g for about 18 months. Many times I tried to increase that number and for some reason I would always net (no pun) 12. I tired this several times adding 4 or so to the established school and I would always end up with 12. It wasn't always the new ones that would die, sometimes the established ones would succumb and one of the new ones would take it's place. I know this sounds weird, but that really is what happened. I did this at least 5 times and I always ended up with 12. I don't know if it's the water in my area or the supply, but I am very anal with cardinals. I put them right behind Discus and blue rams.

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What's wrong with my phosphate level spreadsheet
You know what's wrong with your ]:|]:| po4 sheet. I'll tell you! It doesn't take into account when you dose coppersafe it kills alot of stuff besides the ich and that increases your po4 levels. So there!

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Oh wow, that is strange, tetra. Now I remember you talking about that in an earlier post some time ago. In any case, I'm sure a fresh start in this new tank will yield better results

And LF, nothing AT ALL is wrong with your spreadsheet. I just think it shows an attention to detail that's unheard of outside these parts, which was part of my point: what many wouldn't care about, lots of people here pay special attention to. I would look at it as a source of pride


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You know,

I had the coppersafe initially in my spreadsheet, in various concentrations. But the sheet got so big that a) it wouldn&#8217;t fit on the screen anymore and b) it was way beyond the 100k upload maximum.

just kidding

Ingo


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I'm sure you did LF

Back to the depth of my tank. Here's a pic with red line drawn in to show the the cure of the aquascaping. Might be easier to see from a side shot, but as I said the grouping comes out to the front in a half cirlce and even the wisteria on the sides is tapered into the corners on an arc.



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tetratech, I love the look of your tank. I think it has a zen effect or along that line. Do you know what I'm trying to say here? LOL Not overdone to the point you can't see the different textures and leaf shapes with out really concentrating hard.
I have really been enjoying and been helped by your log and Little Fishes. Good work
jan
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Puddle cat,
Thanks for the tank comments. Yes I do understand what you are saying. I have tried to keep things simple, but dramatic by using only a few species of plants, but arranging them strategically. Glad my log was of some help to you.

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The tank is coming along, How are you keeping the difformis
so low? are you trimming it or is it growing that low?

BTW thanks for your response on APC,

Megil.


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Hey Megil

I've been cutting down the difformis in one tank or another for probably well over a year and it honestly doesn't grow vertically any more except for a few stems. Actually if I do nothing it will crawl right to the front glass. I cut some away and I had alot of dwarf hairgrass growing underneath it.

I guess my avatar on APC gave me away

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tetratech (or should I call you HOC? ),

Yeah, I can imagine the depth of your tank, I guess it is very hard to show on a photo.

Maybe having some plants peak out from behind the smaller rocks on the left and right of the main group would help to intensify the depth vision. What do you think?

Ingo

PS: puddle cat, thanks for mentioning my log as well


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Yeah that's me. Kinda obvious with the same avatar. Everybody knows everybody's business these days. ]:|. The APC site is obviously more advanced and I like the sponsor forums as well.

Back to my depth issues? Actually if you look at the pic you know I started to put more stargrass inbetween the rocks and coming forward of them to give a cascading effect. I can't go any further to the front because it will interfere with the hairgrass. I'm finding the hairgrass to be a "pain in the hairgrass", I'm actually seeing alittle BBA in it (O.K you could stop laughing now ]) because of the detritus that collects in it. I think a powerhead will solve the problem, but I don't like putting extra equipment in the tank.

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tetratech,

OK, I stopped laughing (no, I didn&#8217;t).

May I recommend some Flourish Excel for the BBA .

I simply gave up on my hairgrass, at least for the moment. I let it fight it out with the Glosso of which one is the main plant by the Rock Valley. I actually have no doubt which one will win (the glosso).

About your Star Grass addition &#8220;between&#8221; the rocks &#8211; I actually mean &#8220;behind&#8221; the smaller rocks, just lurking out. This would show that the rocks are not all the way in the back and would add a third depth level (plants lurking, rocks, plants, from back to front).

Ingo


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May I recommend some Flourish Excel for the BBA
I guess I might have to take my own medicine.

I know Tom Barr usually says BBA is low co2, but my co2 has been in the 30's for a long time now.

The BBA is nowhere else, and I know alot of people complain you included about the stuff that get's stuck in it. I guess I'll add some excel and see if there's any improvement then I'll either go to the powerhead or think of another groundcover. I might even go to the riccia but that's going to add alot of maintenance.

I Know what you saying with the stargrass, but I think I've done that, I'll have to take a pic from a different angle.



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Day 46

Against my better judgement I added 10 cardinals to my tank today. I'm going to really track this group and see how they do. I dripped acclimated them for 3 1/2 hours before putting them in. Once in my tank I noticed one or two have flat or their bellies are inverted, so I'm expecting a couple of losses. To be honest I'll be happy with a 70% long-term survival rate. Here's a pic you could see the streaks of blue and red.





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Wow Tetratech, you tank jsut looks more and more magnificent every time you post a picture. I jsut love your tank. I hope that mine will look that cool when I finally get to do one like that. I have one question for you though. I have heard a lot of people talking about how they "drip acclimate" some of their fish. What is "drip acclimating" and how exactly do you do that? Sorry to take away from your post but I know you will be able to explain it to me because I did not think it was worth startign a whole new post for this silly question. THANKS though!!! And again, I just LOVE you tank! It is SO GREAT looking!!!



Christina
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Chrissy,

Thanks for the comments. As you could tell I'm really enjoying this tank.

Drip acclimation is simply taking a piece of airline tubing and tying a knot in it. The knot when adjusted will slow water flow to a drip. So if your acclimating new fish you could drip water from you tank into the bag the fish came in. It's good for any fish, but for fish like cardinals I think it's really important.

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tetratech,

&#8220;Against my better judgement&#8221; &#8211; Yeah, it is an addiction

In your latest picture I think I am able to see the &#8220;peeking&#8221; plants behind the rock. If I wouldn&#8217;t be so lazy I would copy the picture and process it to make it lighter so I can see what else is in there .

A question or two regarding the dripping:

- I assume you create a vacuum to get the flow through the hose going, how do you &#8220;fix&#8221; the hose on (in) the tank?
- How do you support the shipping bag that contains the fish? Do you stand there for 3.5 hours and hold it ?

Ingo


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Good Morning.

Yeah it is an addiction, but the minute I put the cardinals into the tank I know I want a big school. As far as the drip method, here's a list LF style:

1. Float bag in tank for about 15 minutes
2. Put some tank water in a big cup or glass and place it on top of glass canopy
3. Tie a loose knot in airline tubing and get flow going into tank from cup or glass.
4. Adjust knot for drip rate desired and place in bag from LFS
5. Continue this so the bag is full emptied than full again. Usually around 3 hours, less for less sensitive fish.
6. Net fish and put in tank.

I usually go for a pretty slow rate, like two bubbles per second.

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Nov-2005 08:01

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Nov-2005 08:01

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Having technical problems. I give up!]:|]:|]:|

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Nov-2005 19:07

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Yeah yeah,

&#8220;Technical difficulties&#8221;, right. You are just trying to drive up your post count .

Ingo


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Was...

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it...

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that.....

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obvious...

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Fish.

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That's a pretty bad survival rate for cardinals, but I bet your lfs doesn't quarantine them for a week when they get them in. Mine generally all survive, but like I said my lfs quarantines them(and the neons).



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The 10 cardinals made it thru the first 24 hours, but today when I checked my tank one had died, and another has lost it's color on the back half of it's body and is not swimming with the school, so that's probably going to be two down. I'm shooting for a 70% survvival rate. Here's a pic:



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Well not sure. I've purchased cardinals from probably 5 different stores in the past year and they are very tough to acclimate. Some of my lfs have stopped selling them completely. Other's have told me they simply lose to many. Once you get them past the first few weeks their actually pretty solid. I have otos and rummynoses in my tank as well and I never have a problem with them as long as the tank is cycled. Some LFS have told me the supplier keeps them in RO water, which is another problem, because once they hit regular water they are dealing with things they were never exposed to.

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tetratech,

Do you notice a small white pimple like growth on your cardinal&#8217;s mouth?

I had that on my Neons and all, except 2, are dead by now. I first suspected NTD as well, but Heidi (Houston) asked her fish store guy and he mentioned to her about a strange, still unnamed, disease that cannot be cured and sooner or later (depending on the individual) kills the fish. He said that would be explicit to Neons, if I remember right, but I guess cardinals are so closely related that they could get it too. The white blister did not always stay on their mouths, sometimes it disappeared and the fish died later anyways. I treated with Melafix and Primafix to no avail.

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LF,

Check out my other thread on the cardinals. I think I figured out what is causing the demise of this group.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Tetra%20Talk/66224.html?200511140924

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Eep...

I remember having a cardinal school go down like that- same strange discoloration starting at the base of the tail and creeping it's way up to the head, resulting in death.

However, I think my problem was infected tubefix worms. I fed them all tubefix worms one day, and then next they're ALL dropping like flies. This was after they had survived 3 days in the thank, so I would hope it was not an acclimation issue.
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Well I couldn't let day 50 go by without some picks. Here's some of the occupants fighting it out for an algae wafer.



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Here's a shot from the right front side.



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Front Shot



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Are those the pencil fish in that first shot? They're very nice And I love that ram! Any more cardinal deaths to report (I hope not)?


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Yes, those are pencils I have 5 right now and they seem to be really hardy. Very active, but not really schoolers they move around thru the plants and chase each other around. They even chase the bigger black neons.

I lost a total fo 5 cardinals thru the first 4 days. I seemed to have stablized at the remaining 5. I was really hoping for 70% survival.

Here'a a pic of one of the pencils.





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Well,

I mentioned already how beautiful your tank, plants, and fish are, so I am not going to do it again .

But for the first time I seem to understand why you recommend to everyone that they should have some driftwood branches sticking out of their thickets (as I see them for the first time in your tank now).

And, for some reason I didn&#8217;t see that earlier either, the closeup of the Pencil also shows the &#8220;main&#8221; rock of your group in detail. Well, that is not a rock &#8211; is that some form of concrete with gravel mixed in? I though all your rocks are fossilized wood?

Sorry about all these Cardinal losses, I know I am not going to get some anytime soon. What are your plans there? Will you still try to increase the size of that group?

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Driftwood,
Actually as you experienced it's tough to find good pieces I have three pieces left center and right and the only one really good is the one on the left. I need to take a pic with more light on top cause it's hard to see the DW with the black background.

Rock
The rock was sold as petrified wood from a very specialized aquatics store on Long Island. I believe it is petrified wood and the pieces of stone in it is just part of it's natural formation. I actually like it because of it. If it's not petrified wood, I'm going to be really pissed. If you look at my full tank shot you could see from a distance it looks like petrified wood.

Cardinals,
If the group of 5 hold on I will increase the school. These 5 look really good as of now, but with these fish you never know. BTW - Took you advice and added two more rummys. The acclimated same time as the cardinals and they are fine, so now I have 4. I'll probably add a few more. I might move the black neons into my 12 gallon with the 8 gold tetras. The black neons, pencils and belive it or not the otos all of the same basic colors.

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Well all 9 cardinals so far are looking good, the 4 new ones I bought look fine thus far. For me, it's cards or bust. Nothing else looks as good in my tank. I think I'm going to move the 4 black neons into my 12 they should be o.k with 8 gold tetras. That will pretty much max that tank.

So my current stock is:

9 Cardinals (plan to increase to 35 to 40)
7 Otos (plan to increase to 10)
5 Beckford pencilfish
4 Black Neons (plan to move to 12 Gallon)
4 Rummynoses (Increase to 7)
3 Corys
2 Bolivian Rams

34 Total Fish (Plan to increase to 67-70 fish)

I still plan to add a few other interesting fish that I might find. The cardinals and rummys are great schoolers and occupy lower 1/3 of tank. The Pencils and black neons occupy top 1/3. Bolivian rams stay on the bottom.




Last edited by tetratech at 16-Nov-2005 11:08

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tetratech,

But if you remove the Neons, then the 5 Pencils are the only fish that occupy the top 2/3rd of the tank. That&#8217;s a little empty.

You know, Gouramies will sound very interesting to you in no time .

Also, how about a nice school a Hatchet fish for the top?

Ingo

EDIT: so you plan on 1 fish per gallon, does that mean I should plan on 125 fish?

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 16-Nov-2005 11:39


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