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I have 3 keyholes, I'm sure I have 2m and a f/m.

Since I've had them the alpha male would chase them both
away. This week the smaller male must have gotten chased more then normal. A couple small wounds that looks he hit things in the tank trying to get away. That's the first time it's gotten to that extent.

The alpha male is showing more color on the lower half of it's body lately too.

I caught him and the female doing THIS tonight. The male was stationary, the female was very near him but facing the opposite direction. She then fluttered her tail. The male fluttered his tail. The female did it again, then backed up until their tails were pretty much touching for a couple seconds. I thought it was cute lol. That's the first time I seen them even remotely 'chummy'. Are they displaying to form a pair ?

The non-alpha male is getting chased more often now.

It's hard to type when I have to keep turning to look at the tank....

What can I do to increase their chances ?
What else should I look for ?
This is a 40g breeder tank. Should I re-home the other male ? There's a couple friends around that could give it a happy home no problem if needed.

I find myself getting anxious LOL..

The Amazon Nut...

At least put something in there for the lowly male to hide behind. Out of sight out of mind and he might not get bashed.
Keep us updated. Wouldn't a spawning be great?

Thanks Brengun

A spawning would be amazing ! SA cichlid parenting their fry is something I've wanted to see badly in my tank. It'd be very rewarding. There's 2 large caves in there and some plant cover but he doesn't stay in there much. Some reading suggested he should be ok but I'm still considering re-homing, or trading it for a 2nd female locally if possible. Need those wounds to heal first. I also read a flat rock or 2 would be good for egg-laying, I have some around so I'll dig em up. Maybe if they see that they'll take the hint

Water quality needs to improve and the filter media needs attention. I'll hit that soon as I get home tonight no matter if I still feel sick or not.

I wish I had some kinda webcam on the tank to monitor things.

I'm hoping LHG will also pop in here and share his experiences with this fish. Where are ya mate ?

The Amazon Nut...

My suggestion for breeding them, is to take the non-alpha male out, and do not add anything else. Maybe get the non-alpha male a female. But I would not place an additional male with them. As most SA fish breed in pairs. Very few do harum breeding. Thus, the extra female would end up being treated exactly like your extra male is. And after the spawning, it would be increased. Keep them as pairs, and not trios or harums.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Good to hear from you AcidRain

I will rehome the non-alpha male as you suggest. I don't have another place for it but easy to find a good home locally.

"do not add anything else."
Dang ! I'm supposed to be getting 6 L dorsigera juvies fairly soon, maybe I can do the divider thing like Robyn ?. I run 2 hobs so could have one on each side. The dorsig breeder (her first spawn) might be able to reserve
6 for me, wouldn't hurt to ask.

Keep the input coming

The Amazon Nut...

Well, my don't add anything else was meant more for the meaning of no additional females moreso than anythying else. My bad in the wording on that one. A 40 breeder should be ok with a pair of them breeding in one corner, and have other fish in the rest of the tank. I have had them breeding in a 55gal with other fish without a problem. If you are gonna have other breeding fish in there with them though, I would suggest a divider like you ask. That should be fine without problems that way.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Gotta admit I think acidrain pretty much said everything I would have. Keyholes can be quite persistant in relationship confirmations before actual breeding though. Its a good sign but not directly conclusive that theyre gonna be immediately getting jiggy. Often find young fish do it quite a lot before you get any eggs.

As acidrain said segregation of the pair into a breeding aquarium is the way forward. When you get the dorsigeras you will find they are quite efficient predators of other fishs eggs and fry so raising keyholes in with them will be impossible, though in every other respect they are perfectly compatible. A keyhole fry would have to be at least 2 months plus on a powerfeeding schedule before it was safe near a dorsigera.

If you go the divider route the mesh will have to be less than 2mm, or the dorsigera will nail any fry that wanders through it not long after the keyhole fry get off the floor and start wandering. Depends how long it takes for the fry to start mooching about, the performance of the adult keyholes in corralling the fry varies some. By day 7-8 the fry will be going all around beyond the adults ability to keep them together most likely.

Thanks both of you

One thing I'd like to know more about is the behaviour you've noticed when your fish were first bonding etc..

I'll pop back in tomorrow sometimes I'm sure between planting new plants, water changes, re-tying mosses, tai chi class, water tests.. eek !!

The Amazon Nut...

The other male is re-homed now. Just the pair left.

He isn't really being any nicer to the female, although they're hanging out more. I wonder if I shoulda kept the non-alpha male.

The Amazon Nut...

Sometimes it is better to keep the non-alpha male if the alpha male is too aggressive. However, in some cases, especially those of SA cichlids, the females will only spawn with a male that can/is stronger and more aggressive than she is. Many times you will see this, as the female temps the male and sometimes even attacks him, just to test him out. It is believed that all creatures that have these actions/characteristics are doing so, to procreate with the best available gene pool out there. As well, they want the best/strongest male out there to protect them in times of need. In the past, I have kept the non-alpha males, and watched the females beat up on them constantly, and never spawn. At least never spawn until I got a larger and more aggressive male for her.

So, with SA I suggest to keep the alpha male always, as this gives you a better chance of getting a pair to spawn.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Thanks, that makes total sense

The dorsigs will be arriving soon but I managed to buy a bit more time hoping the keyholes will pair up undisturbed.

I will most likely have to rehome the keyhole pair, it's that or use a divider. I think half a 40g would leave the keyhole pair cramped. I'm going to ask my friend Andrew about 10min away who has a fishroom if he'd adopt them.
They'd receive good care and I could check on them sometimes. I wish I had a fishroom



The Amazon Nut...