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True acidrain. I guess my point was mostly for mutations or breeding in general for characteristic that are visually appealing to some that cause harm to the fish. I know blood parrots (not parrot cichlids) are a cross between 2 different species/genus and not line bred for that look as are balloon rams. That was my fault for stating it poorly. I also know flowerhorns are a cross of a few different cichlids.

Balloon rams, balloon mollys, there was another balloon fish recently shown in chat, mutated goldfish (like the lionhead, which doesn't have a dorsal fin )... YUCK!! On my fishy list, those rank dang close to the bottom, just above anything dyed. Balloon fish just aren't natural (yes I know there are other "normal" fish that aren't as natural as they could be - that's another argument all together ) and because of their mutations they are much less hardy. No thank you.

><>Dani<><

I never knew they were mutations...I just though they were kinda another kind of the fish, like Double Tail Bettas, or Long-finned danios (opposed to the regular zebra danios). I have 4 balloon mollies (and 12 fry) and I like them much better then the normal mollies. But I can see what you guys mean about them not being 'normal'.

Many of the traits that breeders develop are genetically recessive; in nature, they would be a uncommon occurence. By breeding for a specific trait, whether albinism, a balloon belly, or extra long fins, other traits, such as disease resistance, may be negatively affected. I would assume that the Balloon Ram would be more sensitive than the regular German Ram, and plan accordingly (extra clean water, low stocking limit, etc.).

Ferret, if you want the fish go ahead and buy them
Just because they're a mutation it doesn't mean that they should'nt be cared for, they still need someone to care for them.
So go ahead, buy them and make them happy

*can't make up her mind*

*sigh*


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-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

I never knew they were mutations...I just though they were kinda another kind of the fish, like Double Tail Bettas, or Long-finned danios

Doubletail bettas and long-finned danios are mutations too . They don't show up in the wild like that. There was just a couple danios out of some spawn that had longer fins, and it was bred with others, etc., until we had the long-finned danios we see today.

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

As far as the ethics of creating balloon rams, it a fairly long and heated debate that can never really be answered because most people already have their opinions formed. Of course I'm the person who also doesn't approve of blood parrots and other man-made creation of fish. If the "mutation" causes problems for the animal I don't approve of it, but if it's strictly for appearance and their is no problem physically so be it. Flowerhorns are an example.

Actually these are two different subjects, both seperate in their own heated debates. First off, these fish are mutants of the original genra and species. They are just bred for their individual charetaristics. But, the flower horn, and the parrot, are cross breeds between two or more different fish. Not mutants of the same species, but a combination of more than one species. Just FYI here.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Now, just my 2 cents here. If you really look at many of the fish in the stores today, you will fine a good many of them are mutants. Some of the more well known are the Angels and the discus. For color and fin shapes. After that comes the gouramis (no such thing as a honey gourami in the wild), different color morphs of Apistos, and the list goes on. Yes many times it looks cruel, and very well maybe. I cannot answer that. But, in the end, it is left up to the buyer, as to wether they want it. So, as long as there is a need, there will be a supply.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Anybody?!

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Another thing to consider, is all the different types of mutations that fish are bred for. For example, There are only three types of discus. All other discus are mutations bred for their colors. There are only two types of angelfish, and all the others are mutations bred from one of these angelfish. In the end, many mutations look like they are painful and such, but are they? If their lifespan is shorter than a "normal" fish of the same type, then I might agree that there is a problem. But I really don't think they are "painful" to the idea. As the fish are born this way, and have adapted this way, so I think they may be OK. As if they were in pain, I don't think they would eat and thus would die as fry. I am not saying I agree with this, but it is something to think about. Just as the albino versions of all fish, are mutations as well. Now, with the albinos, it is known that they grow slower, and die sooner than their non-albino relatives. So, we now know that the genetic make up has a problem with albino forms of fish. But, does it really hurt the fish? Are they in pain? I think not. They just need better care when raising them, care when breeding them. By care when breeding them, I mean to strengthen the genes, but crossing them back to "normal" fish, and then back to albinos. This will strengthen the genes of these albino fish.

All fish are mutated from their distant relatives. Its just that those mutations that better the fish for survival, are transfered on to the next generation of fishes. In other words, a fish in the wild that is born with a curved back, is likely to die. Because it will not be able to find food easily. Or an albino is also likely to die, because it cannot camoflage itself, and thus will become prey to another fish. And thus, the mutation is not transfered on. And, a fish born with fins that are stronger than its "normal" siblings, will grow faster and quicker, because it can catch more food faster. Or maybe a fish is born with more spots than the others, and this helps to camoflage it better, so it will not become prey to others. Thus it will live, and transfer its new mutation on to its offspring.

So, in the end, I say, to each his own. If you like it, then buy it. If not, then at least have an understanding about it, and don't look down on those that do like them.

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There is always a bigger fish...

I agree with those statements, acidrain. To each their own.

*sigh*

I wonder if we still have some in...

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-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

"There are only two types of angelfish, and all the others are mutations bred from one of these angelfish."

Actually, there are three. However, the leopoldi hasn't really been bred into a captive strain quite yet.

Oh yes, the leopoldi. I ran across some of these a long time ago, and kicked myself for not getting them. As I am not an angelfish person, I really had no interest. But, ever since then I have been wishing I had at that time. But back then, they were called P. dumerilii. Oh well, that's the way the cookie crumbles!

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There is always a bigger fish...

;_; I would so have snatched them up if I ever had the chance. They're on aquabid from time to time, but I can't be asked to do online transactions without the knowldege of my parents.

*bumps thread*



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-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Interesting topic this has turned out to be...

I haven't picked one up yet, but I'm still thinking about it.

I'm not usually a fan of balloon anythings, but these guys stood out to me.

They need to live somewhere...I'd almost be more reassured knowing they were in my tank which is cycled and has good water levels...

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-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Thoughts, opinions, concerns, tips?

Cute lil buggers At least, while they're tiny. hardy too I think...and not icky lookin' like the ballon mollies

Might not be able to resist bringing one home...

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

I've seen them for sale on Aquabid, beyond that I have no experience with them. I suspect they are just a mutation of a Blue Ram, line bred to throw true.

Have fun, Mike