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Hello,
I am trying to buy Rams. The guy at the fishstore said there were Three kinds... German Blue Rams, Regular Blue Rams, and German Balloon Rams. Is there a difffrence betwee German Blue and Regular Blue. He suggests Regular blue because their cheaper but I didn't think they were two diffrent types. Can someone clear this up? Thanks.

Chris

Mikrogeophagus altispinosus
Bolivian Ram
The Bolivian Ram takes one to two years to fully mature. They are often confused with the German Blue Ram (M. ramirezi). Tend to be less colorful with stronger markings, but an easier alternative to the blue ram.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/531.htm

Mikrogeophagus ramirezi
German (Blue) Ram
Very pretty, but will usually only live for around 3 years.
Mikrogeophagus ramirezi also has a yellow/gold color morph, the Gold German Ram, which only difference is color. All other traits of these fish are the same.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/533.htm

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

German Blue rams, Blue rams, and German rams...all the same fish. People use the different names though. I bought my GBR under the name of South American Ram.

German Balloon rams are a type of German Blue rams. I don't know much about them, but if you go to the Cichlid forum here on FP, there are atleast a couple posts on them.

*Kristin*

The German Balloon Rams are much more rounded ... like a balloon. They are the same as the Blue Ram but just a different shape. I guess like a Balloon Molly.

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Those who say they cant, Never will !!!

As I understand it, the german rams have been bred out of Germany at some point. Generally, these german bred fish are of better quality (better finnage, colours and less in-breeding) than locally bred fish.
Having seen the difference between the german and local rams, I would say go with the german ones. They cost more, but the fish are much better quality IMO.

Is that opinionated or factual Dangerous Dave? Do they live longer? Also their is a About Balloon Rams I posted in a little while ago, I do not want them.

Chris

Just because it's called a german blue ram in the stores does not mean it came from germany and just because it's called a blue ram does not mean it didn't. You can ask but most stores don't really know the exact origin unless it came from a local breeder. Otherwise they get them from a distributor in the area that gets from many different places including other countries. The blue ram is bred to have some differences in finnage and color including the gold and balloon varities. If you plan to breed you should look for very high quality rams with the color and look you want. Also alot of rams mostly from other countries are treated with hormones and chemicals to make them have more color while younger. These fish often can't create offspring, may fade in color with age, and generally aren't as healthy. Even well bred young rams are often much less colorful than they will be as adults so it's hard to judge the quality of very young rams. Personally I prefer to buy from local breeders that I know won't be treating their fish with anything undesireable and I've often gotten the best quality and color that way.

The 2nd species of ram is the bolivian which are larger and usually hardier but otherwise pretty much comparable to the blue ram.

A couple of points:

1. A german ram does not necessarily mean that the fish has been imported from Germany.
2. LFS can mislabel fish. So something labelled a german ram may actually be a locally bred ram.

All I am saying is that german bred rams are regarded as being better quality than locally bred rams. Hence the price difference.

Garofoli, I actaully purchased some german bolivian rams a couple of years ago. These rams looked ok when I bought them, but when they matured they ended up being the best bolivians I have seen. The fins were longer and the colours much more vivid. I have not seen any here since, but if I did have the opportunity I definately would get them. IMO much, much better than the local product.

Good luck.

If you're new to cichlids, have less than ideal water conditions for the Mikrogeophagus genus, or have other fish that may bother a ram, go with the cheaper standard issue ram. If this ain't your first rodeo and you'd rather have a bred morph than natural colors, go with the more colorful ram. Besides others anecdotal experience, I have some lessons-learned of my own regarding this genus. The color bred rams tend to be rather weak. They're more sensitive to everything, and don't seem to mind dying off if they're not perfectly content with their water and tankmates. The natural color phase of M. ramirezi is much hardier than the specially bred (and very inbred) 'German' color morphs. M. altispinosus is even more hardy. I personally don't buy special morphs of fish, even livebearers. I think fish have evolved enough color on thier own for my purposes, and if I ever feel like a South American cichlid isn't colorful enough, I'll just switch to mbuna. But that's just me, you'll have to decide for yourself. Just be aware that 'German' rams tend to be weak.

Sounds like there a few members here that know much more than me about blue rams. Here's a pic of one I've recently acquired. I was not able to find out their origin. based on your experience is it possible to tell from this pic.



Attached Image:


My Scapes

TetraTech, that is not a blue ram at all. That is a normal ram. I beleive that gold rams are a lecustic form of rams.

Wfish,

Could you examine further what you mean. BTW this is a young fish only about 1.25 inches long

My Scapes

AFAIK, there is no definition of a "normal" vs "blue" ram. There are only two species of "rams":

*Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (these are known as German Blue rams; blue rams; if the rounder variety, ballon rams; and if the gold variety, golden rams)

the other is

*Mikrogeophagus altispinosus (Bolivian rams).

There are no other typre of rams. Somehow, these fish stores and other dealers have caused mass confusion by naming their rams really weird things to boost their product.

Tetra, you have a "normal blue ram" does that help?

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Thanks Crazy Red. So are you saying I have a "Normal Blue Ram" that's not a German Blue Ram or you don't know the origin.

My Scapes

German doesn't mean it's from Germany. They're all from South America. It's just a color breed. Yours is natural color. No crazy breeding to make it 'prettier.' In my opinion, it's better that way.

Lecustic, amelanistic, albino, etc. all refer to pigmentation. Albino, for example, means no pigment in the skin at all. Amelanistic, however, just means no black pigment. These are sometimes natural morphs, but if you're seeing one in a pet store, it was certainly bred in.

AggieMarine,

Thanks for clearing that up. I mispoke. I didn't mean that some originated from Germany I know they are from SA, but where they exported to Germany and Asia and bred under different conditions and then imported to the USA.

My Scapes

German Blue Rams and Blue Rams are one in the same. There is no way, AFAIK, to differentiate the two at all. I'm not really sure why they started referring to them as "german" since the fish is a South American cichlid, unless (as mentioned earlier) it was bred in Germany for a while.

The majority of fish commercially available these days are bred on Asian fish farms and they are notoriously weak due to poor breeding practices and the use of hormones to enhance the color. There is no way (that I know of anyway) to tell where a blue ram was bred unless you happen to know the breeder or happen to know that it was wild caught.

This whole German blue ram, blue ram thing is just names and really doesn't refer to provenance of the fish.

This is what I understand about this fish after much reading in different places.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."