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I've seen this debate around a few times. I have a 20 gallon long. The filter is rated for a 50 gallon tank. I am looking to get a few plants down the road, but lightly planted if anything.

The only tankmates in now are 5 neons. Obviously, I want to add at least one more to get that magic number. I like hatchetfish, but I can drop them if need be.

Right now I have 2 rams 1 male and 1 female. I was planning of having a harem of apistos, but they proved too expensive and fragile to boot.

So could I have a harem of rams instead?

If breeding is your goal don't mix rams and apistos in small tanks. Maybe in large tanks with lots of territories.

I'd add a couple more female german blue rams. Or a pair of Bolivian or Gold Rams.

The Amazon Nut...

Personally, I also have heard differing opinions
on Bolivian Rams, many say they are a true pair breeder, that mates with one partner for life.
My experience is different though- My rams harem breed.
I have 2 males and 3 females.
3-4 weeks ago, my larger male, had pit spawned with 2 females (2 females laying eggs in same nest and all three defending).
Then just this past week, one of these 2 females has decided to switch to the other male, and now he has 2 females with him all the time.
So, I would say yes, keep a harem of Bolivian Rams, or keep a mixed group. Sometimes they will pair off (hasnt happened with mine yet), other times one male will keep several females(this is what always happens in my tank).
The neons are fine with the Rams.
If you plan however to add a pair more rams to your tank, I would drop the hatchets from your plan.
Good luck.



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"I was planning of having a harem of apistos, but they proved too expensive and fragile to boot"

If you are lucky you will have a store close by that offers domestic bred apistos (or rams for that matter)
Cheaper, less problems, accustomed to your local tapwater.

Wild caughts are not FRAGILE, they just require good water quality from a fishkeeper willing to research and meet the fishes requirements. But also need to pre-treat them for internal parasites while in your quarantine tank.

Also they come from 6.8 to 6.5 ph then adjusting usually to tapwater 7.0 to 8.0 and never acclimated properly. Float in bag for half hour, pour in tank doesn't apply for wild caught SA anything. You'd need to 'drip acclimate'.

Much easier for you overall to locate domestic bred fish. If the local store does not offer them, try searching for a local fish club, auction, website, or private breeder. They are around, just have to dig. Good luck


The Amazon Nut...

Thanks, but I'm done with apistos.
If I was just to have a ram/neon tank. What would be some good numbers?

IME a trio works well...no breeding ever happened in my tanks, but my 3 always socialized, ate together etc... A harem would probably be best for these fish

In a 20...

3 Rams
8 Neons (or cardinals)

Last edited by Tetra Fan at 19-Oct-2005 06:47

If you want to succsessfully breed Rams, you must leave them in a tank on their own.


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Why is that? Neons are not egg eaters and hatchets stick to the surface.

I think they would be fine with either neons or hatchetfish. I have had my bolivian rams successfully hatch eggs to wigglers in my 75g community. They will defend their eggs at all costs.


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I think a pair of Bolivian Rams with a dozen neons would be good for a 20g.

In my 23g, I have a pair of Bolivian Rams with 7 cardinals (which I plan to up to a dozen when I find a good batch) and they stay out of each other's way. The Rams have bred twice, and right now the 2nd set of frys are free swimming. I haven't seen the cardinals try to eat the frys (the parents are doing their darnest to guard them), but the corys got a lot of them at the wriggler stage.

-P