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Ok can you guys tell me if this is compatible: 2 red devils, a green terror, a jack dempsey, a black belt and a red terror in a 135 gallon tank or do I need to get rid of some guys due to fighting and not enough territory.

Hi mate.
Glad you asked first.
No.
1 Red Devil (people might say the tank is too small for an adult male..)
or
2 Green Terrors possibly. Depends on actual fish. im sure LHG may disagree..

Count the Red Terror out of the equation all together.

Ive never had any experience with the black belt cichlid to be honest.
JD's are hit and miss, but i certainly wouldnt put one with a RD or a GT.

that is world war 3 waiting to happen,pretty much all of those fish become very nasty with age and size,even more so if you get a pair,just the red terror,can dispatch those tank mates no probs,and red devils they are just metal,and IF you were to have a pair of them,everything else is guna cop it,it MITE work in that size tank,while they were all still very small but as they grow,so does there aggresion and so does there eyes for territoryif i were you,i be picking something that i liked the best from the list above,and go with that

World War III in your aquarium is if anything an understatement with that collection.

The Dempseys are actually your least aggressive fishes in there ... I never thought I'd find myself typing those words in a post here!

Give you an idea how bad Red Terrors are, I've seen juveniles at just one and a half inches in length in a dealer aquarium trying to kick seven bells out of each other, so adults are likely to be pyroclastically bad tempered. I would think VERY LONG AND HARD before putting Red Terrors in with other Cichlids except in an extremely large aquarium, because if they decide that they haven't enough space, they push the nuclear button and set about systematically exterminating the opposition. I'd actually characterise them as worse than the Red Devils, and the Red Devils are sufficiently serious hardcore terrorists on their own to be a major handful if you don't know what you're taking on.

And then you have a Black Belt in there as well ... Hoo boy! Talk about trouble with a capital "T" ...

A Black Belt in the wrong setting is a supernova with fins. I would consider that a species aquarium only Cichlid unless I had something enormous to house it in. Multiply the size of your current tank by about 5, and you're nearer the mark. Even then, I'd be prepared to intervene FAST the moment internecine warfare looked as if it was about to break out.

I'd start rehousing most of those fishes FAST, before you start staring aquarium Armageddon in the face.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

listen to us mate,were thinking ahead,my blackbelk was intolerant of ANYTHING in my 206gal,same as my rd,and my jds,mate ive kept everything on that list,IT CANT WORK,now that ive thought about it more,i woulndt even try em while they were small...

ps,sidenote,hey cal i tryed to pm you back,but its not letting me,please dont think im not answering you

Can i suggest a single male Texas to you?
Very nice fish..

Quick tangential diversion ...

Hokese, my mailbox was full. Your message was bounced back because of that. I've cleared out some clutter, so until the next time it's full, you should be able to mail me again.

Now returning everyone to their scheduled thread ...

Cichlids in a 135? Let's see. What would I go for?

If I wanted a Cichlid community I'd be thinking smaller species such as Firemouths and Herotilapia multispinosa. If I was thinking of bigger Cichlids, I'd be thinking about making that tank home to a single pair of Dempseys or something like Austroheros facetus, something that has long been domesticated and would appreciate decent space for its size.

One fish I would think long and hard about keeping out of the above selection and pairing off with another is the Black Belt. Black Belts have a reputation for breaking up the pair bond via a murderous divorce if something goes wrong during mating and rearing a family. You have to be very careful how you handle them, not least because the male is so devoted to the task of finding threats to his offspring to destroy that the red mist descends and he sometimes attacks his mate during this. Trick with these fishes is to provide them with targets for their aggression during the rearing of a family, so, for example, big water beetles and dragonfly larvae make perfect live food for the adults during this period. This trick was cited in the venerable Innes book as working with a range of Cichlids, and basically with Black Belts you need something like this to keep them from going hammer and tongs at each other even after the male and female have paired off. Give the male in particular something to attack and vent his fury upon that will also form a nice meal, and as the old Innes book says, you end up providing the fish with the double satisfaction of destroying enemies of its young, and enjoying a nice crunchy snack into the bargain.

Basically, I'd advise anyone taking on big Cichlids to start cultivating creatures such as large water beetles and dragonfly larvae for this purpose. Whilst these creatures are dangerous to fry and juvneniles under one and a half inches in length, they're lunch to a big adult. A 10 inch adult male Black Belt will be able to destroy 20 or more large water beetles at a single sitting, and his mate will probably help herself to some as well, so during breeding, chances are you'll get through a fair number of big water beetles with these fishes!

Failing the big water beetles and other similar critters, another option could be to cultivate shrimps such as Macrobrachium rosenbergii, which would probably be easier to cultivate, and which the Cichlids would probably attack as potential try enemies even if they weren't - they'd be attacked simply for looking like fry enemies. Again, though, fishes with bad tempers such as Black Belts and Caquetaia umbriferum would probably chomp their way through a LOT of shrimps during a typical family raising exercise. But, if it stops them beating each other up, it's worth the effort.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

well said cal,as i said my blackbelt,had the fury of bruce lee on crack...the only onther fish ive kept that was more aggresive was my flowerhorns,red terrors are nasty buggers too,allthought the 1s i had were quite well behaved,but at any time,these guys can say ive had enuff of these tankmates and then boom,things are dying left,right and centre,man did you pick the worst of the worst,for out right ruthlessness,and killer instinct,talk about starting at the top,very nice fish,but very nasty too, all of em.any of those fish by themselves in that tank would do ok,provided YOU keep them stimulated,if these guys are to much for you,or youd prefer a mixed cichlid tank,then avoid all on that list,as cal said some firemouths,they look stunning when in breeding dress,or some severums,they are pretty well behaved,the list is huge for that sized tank,it will do you well to do some reserch,then you will no what can go in togther and what cant...

As a tangential diversion, since I'd been looking at bad tempered Cichlids and trying to perform a rough comparison, one of the species that had entered my comparison list was Caquetaia umbriferum, known colloquially as the Umbee. This is very definitely a specialist only fish.

This is because it's one of the biggest of aquarium Cichlids. This monster reaches two feet in length, and is a deep bodied, chunkily muscular fish with its two feet in length when fully grown, so basically, this is a fish for a 250 gallon tank. All to itself.

It's also another of those species where there's a considerable size difference between male and female, which means that if you want to breed them, the "incomplete divider" technique is a must, because the territorial requirements for these fishes are huge, and unless you can afford to give them a truly colossal aquarium, chances are you won't have enough space for a mated pair even in a 250 without resorting to an incomplete divider.

Plus, the fish is bad tempered, takes no prisoners, and because of its sheer size, is likely to unleash total havoc in the wrong setup. It's a lovely fish in adult colour, and breeding plumage is stunning, but it's one of those fishes that has "don't mess with me" written all over it. It even looks as if it wants to pick a fight.

The reason I've taken this tangential diversion in this post is simple. With big Cichlids, it pays to do a LOT of prior research before taking delivery. Because these fishes can cause all manner of problems if you are not prepared for them well in advance. On the plus side, they're never boring, you'll never be lacking for interest with them, but sometimes the interest they provide can be the sort of 'interest' you don't want!

The best advice I can offer consists of the following:

[1] Think of a tank size. Then multiply that by 4. Chances are this is what you actually need for some of these fishes.

[2] If you're going to try integrating some of these into some sort of 'community' setup, pick your species with EXTREME care. Do a LOT of prior research on aggression levels, likely territorial demands, mating and fry rearing idiosyncrasies that could cause them to wreak havoc if they start breeding, and plan for these before you even buy the tank, let alone the fish.

[3] Arrange the decor to suit the fish, not you. Breaking up lines of sight so that territorial rivals aren't constantly glowering at each other and sizing each other up for a beating will help to calm things down. Don't try to impose any aesthetics on these fishes, quite a few of them will rearrange your setup anyway unless you cement everything in place.

[4] Assume from the start that these fishes know what they want, will exercise a lot of effort to get it, and in doing so will probably be smarter than you, and you are likely to enjoy more success taking this idea on board, than if you think you can outsmart the fishes. Most other fishes have keepers - Cichlids have staff.

[5] The books are useful, but don't tell the whole story. Not least, they don't mention that quite a few of these Cichlids have read the books, and set out from day one to make a mockery of them. These fishes are individuals with a vengeance. This is part of what makes many aquarists love them, but if you're not prepared for some of the more florid manifestations of this, you're in for some headaches. Be prepared for the Cichlid that seems to take a perverse delight in flushing all of your best laid plans down the toilet. Under NO circumstances underestimate the capacity of a well-motivated Cichlid to start training YOU to do ITS bidding.

[6] If you can live with all of the above, enjoy the experience. It can be a roller coaster ride when you embark upon this for the first time, but it can also grow on you.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

thats great advice,so take it from all of us,be prepaired,and do some research.then once you have the info,you can put it to good use,then only will you get the best looking fish

ps,hey cal,arnt umbee males full grown mean lookin buggers,and the size of there mouths is massiv,they have a big fella at 1 of my lfs,and hes in a 350gal,with a huge samon cat!one cool fish..

hey cal i think you and i mite have scared cichlid civillian off altogether

Oh yes, Umbees definitely have that "take no prisoners" look on their faces, especially big males. Even among Cichlid fans, it takes a certain special dedication to take that fish on, because the expense over time is horrific.

Horrific expense at having a giant aquarium constructed specially for it, because you can't get a ready-made aquarium that size ...

Horrific expense at having to provide not one, but TWO big Eheim outside canister filters to keep the water clean, because the fish has an appetite that would put some Labrador retrievers to shame, coupled with an equally heroic capacity to chuck stuff out the other end ...

Horrific expense at having to have the floor joists reinforced to take the weight of its home ...

Horrific expense at having to keep that thing adequately fed for something like a 15 to 20 year life span, and with the appetite it has, that's not cheap ...

Then of course there's the logistics of doing water changes on an aquarium that huge. Even a 10% water change would take me about 4 hours with my bucket and hose routine.

And, the only catfish you could keep with it long term is one of those razor wire armoured Doradids. Probably something else outlandishly huge like one of those Megalodoras irwini catfishes from my old Japanese catfish book. If you're going to have 2 foot long fishes, you might as well do the job properly.

Yes, Umbees are hardcore Cichlids for the seriously dedicated AND wealthy. The fun part is, they're not especially troublesome in the hardiness department, nowhere near as fussy as Discus, say, as far as water chemistry is concerned, but the sheer size of the adults and the belligerence of mature breeding fishes puts them squarely in the list of those fishes that should only be taken on by someone who knows well in advance what to expect and is doing it out of love. You've got to be the kind of person who will live on bread and water for a month in order to save the pennies for the equipment the fish needs before taking one of these on. Either that or you'd better have enough disposable income to treat yourself to a new BMW 5 series every year, and do without the BMW one year while you set up the huge aquarium.

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

bmw 5 seriesi like that 1.but a good post about umbee.