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Here is what is happening....
Bought 2 juvenile angels about 4 weeks ago. They came from the same tank at Petsmart (I know, I know, but the closest lfs is like 40 minutes away)I added them to my empty 30 gallon at the same time. One died within 24 hours. I kinda figured this was par for the course having shopped where I did. I waited about a week and then added another angel, still juvenile, maybe a hair bigger than the one I still had. At first I saw the original angel(we call him Ghost Eye) giving the new guy heck, but that appeared to stop completely after a day or so. They would even hang out together in the cave sometimes. He lasted about a week, then died. He was never really as strong looking as I would have hoped. Went back to Petsmart, gal there said Ghost Eye was killing the other angels when the lights were off. She said I had to have two who came from the same tank and introduce them at the same time. Well at this point that is impossible, cause I already have one, plus thats what I did the first time. So I decided to try one more time, maybe the others were just sick, neither of them looked great from the start. Got another, he looked strong, at first he got chased a little, and then I saw he would chase back. I thought that was good that he would stand up for himself. When I put him in I rearranged the decor so both fish would be confused a little. They stopped chasing after a day or so, been getting along fine for about 5 days. The new guy was really brave hanging out right in front waiting for food all the time with Ghost Eye. Then this morning his fins look ragged like he was hanging around the intake, and he is having a hard time swimming upright at all. He is drifting and bumping into things. What the heck? Did Ghost Eye strike again? Is it just impossible for me to hope to have two Angels at this point?
Thanks,
Lauren

I was watching this post to see what somebody would reply. Now it's off the recent list, so while we're waiting for somebody experienced to reply, I'll tell you of my experience.
I kept angels years ago & two fish that I always had trouble with when adding to my tank were angels & neon tetras. I had more deaths among those when adding to the tank than anything.

I found out with neons that the reason was because the store they were coming from had them in hard water & I added a ph down to my hard water to make it softer for them cause I read they like softer water. They did not like the abrupt change. last time I left my water hard & bought more neons. I didn't loose one.

Back to angel fish. I was always able to introduce new angel fish, of course with the usual squabbling like you described. It never appeared violent though. But still sometimes I would loose an angel.

lately I've went through another thing. I believe one of mine died from fin rot though & the other died from what I believe to be stress. A male gold gourami & one particular tiger barb kept a gold angel in the corner. I got rid of the two offenders, but too late I guess. The angel ended up dying.

I know you said you had no other fish in the tank. I still believe there is an unknown (to us anyway) reason that angel fish often die after being introduced into a tank. Mine may have been water quality, as I've had a problem with that. You might as well post what your water tests come up with as I KNOW the people on here Will ask you that.
They may wonder if your tank had fully cycled also, as in a new tank, seeing you said it was empty to begin with.

Also do you have any botttom feeders? We have had a discussion lately on another post...... about albino cories I believe......... on why it's important to have bottom feeders. It apparently keeps disease down.

So I end up with one angel fish & get two more. The one in the tank shows the newcomers who the boss is for about the first week, but nothing violent, just the usual pecking order. Now they are all fine. But you did good to rearrange the tank.

My inexperienced guess would be that it is not your older angel fish since you stated that after the initial introductions, they seemed to get along fine. My guess would be it was that unknown factor or water quality. I would suggest you make sure your water is fine.......... get some bottom feeders, cories are a good choice & after awhile, try again. I'm sure this can be done since your angel does not appear to be overly violent that you have seen. Hopefully you will receive other, more experienced advice soon.

Thanks, Fish Patty. I am so glad to hear your opinion. As for my water, my tank is in the process of cycling. I have been keeping my ammonia low through water changes, my nitrites are staying pretty low too, and I have been adding cycle with each water change. Also I added a big handful of gravel from the cycled tank that the angels were in when I bought them. I am opting to cycle my tank slower with water changes in order to keep the water quality from getting too too bad. I guess this could be the problem, but Ghost Eye is SO strong and his fins are growing nicer and taller everyday (than they were at purchase) and the color rich flakes are making him turn a really nice gold on his upper half. I guess that is why I wasn't really thinking it was the water. But the first angel died when the water was first new and pristine, so he must have had his own set of problems!
~Lauren

Your tank is in the process of cycling? That may be the problem.

"first angel died when the water was first new and pristine", Again that may be the problem......... new water....... just because water looks pristine or clear does not mean that it is fit to put fish into. But your readings seem low, so I don't know what's going on. If that was my tank.......... I would quit all the extra water changes except for once a week or every two weeks & let the tank finish cycling on it's own with the help of the one angel that is in there. For some reason your one angel survived the cycling process it sounds like. After you are sure the tank is cycled, then I would put a new fish in there. But like you I wouldn't be sure what was going on either, so I would ask the people on here too.

Well............ this is my guess as a beginner myself. I wish someone would come on that knows about cycling, so they could advise you as what to do, as my opinion is probably wrong. So just hang in there & we'll see who responds to your post & what they say, & then we will see just how far off base I really am. Then we can both learn together.

Nice meeting you tankgirrrl & I wish you good luck with your next angel fish!

Angels are not very cycle-hardy, which could be part of the problem, as Fish Patty said. What I think happened is that Ghost Eye noticed that the other angels were weak from the cycle, and so he took advantage of the opportunity and attacked them, as it is a fish's instinct to attack another dying fish. Also, most attacks occur at night, which again supports the possibility that Ghost Eye attacked the other angels.

tankgirrrl- Look what I just found!

"My name is Tony and I live in WI, I've been trying to keep Angels in my 72 gallons tank without success. Every time I tried after a week or two they die, I got Angels in the past from Petsmart, Wal-Mart and 2 different local fish stores but no luck.

What should the water parameters be, like PH etc ? How many times a day and what kind of food should I feed them with ? In my tanks right now I have neon’s tetras, lemon tetras, black tetras, 1 red dwarf gourami, 1cooperfire gourami and 4 clown loaches, are they good tank mates or not ?

Thanks for your help."



 Hi Tony

O.K. so you like many others these days are having trouble keeping angelfish. Relax, it probably isn't you. It more likely is the quality of fish you are buying. In recent years, starting with the early 90's the hardiness of angels has declined significantly. There also has been lingering problems with the so called "angelfish disease". Our water parameters here are a P.H. of 7.8-8.0 and our total hardness is 120. Having said that. It doesn't matter. Angelfish will adapt to almost any conditions as long as they are stable and the fish have been acclimated. Fish that have not been acclimated will show effects almost immediately. The fact that they lived for you 2-3 weeks eliminates that possibility in your case.

Feeding is important for sure. We feed ours 3 times a day, two being flake food and one of them being a brine shrimp/blood worm mixture. I recommend at least 2 times a day with a good flake food and treating them a couple times a week with brine shrimp and or blood worms which can be purchased frozen locally.

The tank mates that you mention are just fine to bunk up with angelfish. There is a possibility you have a problem with the angelfish disease. It can stay dormant in your tank for many months. There are many ways you could have brought it into your tank. Unfortunately it is hard to determine if it was just weak fish or if you have this problem. One way would be to set up another "virgin" tank and try some more angels. If they do well for you try putting 1 or 2 into your 70 gal. If they don't show illness in a week or two, your tank is not contaminated. If they do get sick, and the others in the second tank are fine, then unfortunately the 70 is contaminated.

I hope this helps you out. Remember it is not you and most likely it's not your tank. We just aren't getting good angels anymore......And that's why we are here!

Dennis Angelfish Express
.......................
This is from a site that sells angelfish............ so we might take it with a grain of salt. But worth considering anyway.

Angels are not that hardy of a species and should only be introduced to an established, fully cycled tank. That being said it is odd that the first death occured within 24 hours of being in. I believe what has happened is that they were ill to begin with, many just don't fare well unfortunately.
I don't think it's petsmart's fault, All my fish came from my local petsmart, because they have the best lookin tanks around and I've been in everything that handles fish near me. Most of the independant lfs, to put it bluntly, can't hold a candle to them.
But I digress, they were prolly sick at first, and then the added stress of a cycling tank added more. wait till your tank is fully cycled, use the time to do some reading up on angels and research their needs and habitat. Good luck

Thanks guys.
That was very helpful! So no more water changes huh? My nitrites are getting higher every day, so perhaps I am getting closer? I read on another older thread that one person said it was hard to cycle a tank with just one fish. I guess that is why I kept trying to get another. I initially wanted to purchase angels online from this really nice website I found that specializes in angels, but after they told me what the shipping would be (almost $50!) on top of their $40 minimum purchase, you can see why I opted to head to petsmart!

I really need to get some bottom feeders soon though. Ghost eye lets at least one flake a day get past him and land on the bottom, and once its down there it's out of his range of view. There are a couple of funky flakes on the bottom. I guess that will just aide in the cycling a little faster? Come on baby, CYCLE! Lol.
~Lauren

Hi there,
noooooo do water changes please!
If you dont, your angels certainly wont survive.
Do NOT add any more fish at all until your
cycle has completed and been complete for
at least a week or two.
Angelfish cannot handle a cycling tank at all.
Im amazed Ghost Eye is even still alive.
Frayed ragged fins and quick death are sure fire
signs of ammonia or nitrIte poisoning.

Do not let ammonia get above 1ppm or
nitrItes above 3 ppm.
Any time these get high, do a small water change.
You may need to do water changes of 20% up to 3-4x
weekly in order to save your angelfish.

If you can get Biospira, please do, and add it.
It will help cycle your tank faster.

Remember - a tank is not cycled until there is
0 ammonia, 0 nitrItes, and +5ppm of NitrAtes.

Edit: Also, if you are finding food is getting
to the bottom and "getting funky" as you say,
youre feeding your fish too much.
Remove any uneated food and feed your fish half
as much.


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Ok Sneaky............. I think I'm getting it now! (Sorry folks, I can be a little slow sometimes) Let me repeat it back to you so we can be sure my thinking is right. When you are cycling a tank either fishless or with a tough fish like a danio, you pretty much leave it alone till it is done cycling.

But if you mistakenly add another fish, thinking it is cycled, or somewhere along the line of fish keeping you do too much gravel vacuuming & filter cleaning (therefore causing your tank to sort of cycle again) & want to save your fish, you quit cleaning so good........ as in just vacuum 1/4 of the tank at a time & just swish the filter off in the old water you just took out, so that the good bacteria will have a chance to build up.

But since your readings are so high & that means the water is bad for the fish, what you want to do is take out some of that bad water & put in good water............ doing this frequently. Therefore you are helping the fish, but you are not interrupting the cycling process because you are not removing the good bacteria by vacuuming every time you are removing water. You are just removing bad water, which is a good thing. Do I have this right??

Yes fish patty, I think you got it down right Also the BioSpora is awesome as is several other products. I use Cycle, and something else that I find in the "pond section" it's lavendar and smells like grapes a little Add it and it helps. Also I have had angels go ballistic and kill everyone else...thus the reason they are gonethey killed a couple of corries...best of luck...houston

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Yep you got it!
I wouldnt vaccuum the gravel during
the cycle though, just skim the top for crud.


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Thanks for confirming that houston & Sneaky! Yeah! I love it when things finally click for good!

I think I probably got people confused with my last post on here. I kind of "borrowed" it from tankgrrrl just to clarify my own thinking. I wanted to make sure of what Sneaky was saying to her........... the reasoning behind the water changes. Tankgrrrl is the one cycling her tank but I will pass along the advice about those products to her houston.

I do have angels too though. I have heard of the damage they are capable of. I also have tiger barbs & red eyed tetras & have heard similar stories about them, so...............

I will accept your best of luck houston & pass it on to tankgrrrl also. Thanks!

Thanks for all the posts guys & thanks for letting me borrow this thread from you tankgrrrl!

Found this thread late. Still, better late than never.

Angel Fishes became a 'problem fish' where I live about 8 years ago. My LFS told me that he refused to stock anything other than locally bred specimens because the ones from Singapore (again - what is it with that place?) were about as robust as a house of cards in an F5 tornado.

Yet again, inbreeding to the point of destruction is the cause here. In the race to produce ever more exotic 'fancy angels', corner cutting and all kinds of bad practices have slipped in, all motivated by a myopic pursuit of the bottom line of the balance sheet. So long as they're shipped out and sold, what happens to them after that isn't the concern of some 9sigh), which is why quite a few strains of Angel Fish have acquired a bad name. Same story occurred with Rummy Nosed Tetras about the same time - which was when I learned about the 'hot housing' method used to raise them because they're slow growing.

In the case of Angels, Singapore bred stock has had a woeful reputation here in the UK now since about 1999, which was when serious defects started showing up in significant quantities. About the same time, defects started appearing in other fishes from the same source - Pristellas that looked as if they'd been raised on a fish farm in Chernobyl, Rams that behaved as if they were being expected to live on Venus instead of an aquarium on Earth, Rummies that keeled over because of the shock of coming down from 40 degrees C to a more normal 28, Guppies that were, quite frankly, a disgrace to the trade and an abomination in the eyes of anyone who actually cares about other living things, and Neons that would keel over and die if you so much as looked at them.

It's like everything else in this life it seems nowadays - you can either obtain something that is built down to a price, or up to a specification. I prefer my fishes "built up to a specification", as it were.

Once again, we're back to the question of provenance. Ask hard questions. if you do not receive satisfactory answers, walk out of the door.

Having said all that, however, even good quality Angels will not like you if you drop them into an aquarium that is still cycling, or acclimatise them improperly. They like to be handled with due care and attention.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

"Ask hard questions. if you do not receive satisfactory answers, walk out of the door."

Cali............ I can only speak for myself here. I have only one aquarium that I want to stock. I don't want to raise anything. I just want to watch some fish. The only fish store in this town is Wal-mart. A bigger city is about an hr. drive away. There are many pet stores listed in the ph. book for that city. I imagine many of them have fish. Are you saying you want someone like me or tankgirrl to spend all day (literally) driving to that city, going from store to store & asking "hard questions" (whatever those are...... I don't even know)?

In other words are you saying I should not go to walmart to stock my tank? All I want now is 4 danios & 4 cories. Are you saying I should spend all day in the big city going from store to store asking (what hard questions do you want us to ask anyway?) hard questions just for a few common fish? What if I just needed one more danio? Big city again?

Are you saying my fish buying should be done on principle alone? I should thoroughly investigate as to where the fish are coming from & then try to determine if they are a reputable breeder & then & only then buy from the store? I don't even think the people at the stores know where their fish come from. I think the fish guy just comes by the city once a week & stops at the store & drops off the fish they have ordered & then goes onto the next store down the road.

I am not that much into fish. I just want some in a tank to watch. Wal-mart suffices for that unless they are out of something at the time. Call me uncaring or lazy or perpetuating the bad fish trade if you wish.......... but that is just the way it is for a lot of us I believe.

I'd say that in part you've already answered that question at least partly in the affirmative by coming here and seeking advice. You want your aquarium to be successful. In the pursuit of that goal, you come here and ask questions. True, you have to work your input around the rest of your life, in common with the rest of us. However, I think it is safe to say that extra effort expended in any enterprise usually reaps rewards.

Remember what I said in the piece on provenance - that finding and cultivating a responsible, hard working and knowledgeable fish dealer pays dividends? My Panda Fun Palace is living testimony to the veracity of that principle. I've just spent three hours watching the madcap Pandas spawning, in an aquarium that looks to the untrained eye like a miniature piece of the Amazon in my living room. It's taken time to reach that happy state (it first went 'live' way back in December 1994), but I now have, courtesy of the time and effort spent upon it (fingers crossed that I don't tempt Fate here!) an aquarium that is a vibrant collection of rainforest-verdant greenery with shoals of happy fishes frolicking around in it. You too can have the same, even if your objectives do not include launching into breeding programmes. You lamented in other threads not being able to set up the 'perfect' aquarium - well mine isn't 'perfect' from the standpoint of being a true Amazonian biotope, because it has Java Moss and Java Ferns in it, which would not be found in South America. But it's still an achievement I'm pleased with, because everyone who looks at it marvels at the lush plant life, the naturalistic looking bogwood arrangements and the manifestly happy fishes sparkling with vivid colours. In fact, as I type this, the Pandas are still zipping about at Warp Factor Nine, males chasing the female and doing their utmost to persuade her to continue mating. In my case, trips to the LFS are complicated by the fact that I don't own a car - I have to ship fishes to and from their source and destination aquaria via bicycle. It's a three mile ride to the LFS, and three miles back. Helps keep me fit into the bargain, but that's another story.

At some point I'm hoping to be able to re-visit a species from my teenage years, namely Anomalochromis thomasi, a fish I've spent the best part of thirty years trying to track down after it "disappeared from the radar" for some reason. I've found somewhere that stocks it. Trouble is, it's seven miles away. But, if the funds become forthcoming and allow me to buy the fishes, I'll pedal the 14 mile round trip to obtain them. I'll set about rearranging the second aquarium to suit their needs. And hopefully, chalk up another success in a year or so's time.

Meanwhile, I've got to fit that around job hunting, paying bills and meeting a hospital appointment for a long-standing complaint that rises intermittently to add to my burdens. Going to be a bit of a struggle, but, if it comes to pass, it'll be worth the end result.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Gosh, I missed all the posting going around in here! Well, Fish Patty don't feel bad about living in a small city and having Wal-mart be the closest fish source. I live in Atlanta, a city of over 5 million people, and the closest lfs is about 45 minutes away. Of course that's how long it actually takes to go 10 miles around here with the traffic problem. So the store isn't that far, just takes too darn long to get there, not to mention the risk of death associated with these crazy drivers. And having to haul a 2 year old everywhere I go doesn't make me want to venture out on long treks anyway!

Well, I just tested my water. I havent changed it in a few days. Ammonia is around 1ppm and nitrite... well I cant find the card that tells what the reading means exactly (another perk of having a 2 year old), but its a nice blue violet, not yet showing any leanings into the pinks which is where I recall they get really high. I hate this part. Waiting. For the past 3 years, I had a fully cycled, very healthy tank full of costly internet fish and some really nice plants before I moved here a few months ago. I had to give away those fish and plants went in the trash and start over because of the move, and I am so bummed out about all this instability and lack of fish in my tank!
Anyhoo, I've never kept angels before, and I really just wanted a couple of nice ones and then lots of cories on the bottom. Maybe next time (after the cycle) I'll add 2 angels in hopes that one of them will make it, and at the very least they will divide the attention of Ghost Eye if he is part of the problem.

Two more angels, huh? With my luck yours will both live & you will have 3. Then you will end up with a mated pair. But that could happen with two also. I have 3. Mine haven't formed a pair yet but I'm counting on it cause that's not what I want.
It may work out for the best though, we'll see. Be sure & let us know when your new fish has survived. I'm rooting for you!

I sympathize with your impatience. We've all been there.

" I am so bummed out about all this instability and lack of fish in my tank!"
Welcome to the real world of the aquarium hobby.
Have you been to the recovery room & read my thread about the spouse?
..........................

Cali.- I think I see what you're trying to say. For people like you who want to strive for excellence in what they do............ I applaud you. The success of this world is built upon people like you.

Then there are the people like me. Wal-mart is convenient & reasonably priced, so I go for it.

Driving an hour?
Pffft.
You guys are lucky.
I live in Canada, and we are plagued by the
fact that all our townships and cities are
so far away.
I used to drive an hour 20 every day just to
get to school and then 1 hour 20 back.
Now I drive 20 mins to one campus, 40 to the other,
I moved to split the difference.

Honestly, if I had to choose between buying fish from
Walmart, or driving 1 hour, I would drive 1 hour.
It would be worth it to get healthier fish.

You would be amazed the number of chemicals that
walmart dumps on their fish daily.
Its deplorable - as most of them cause cancer in
people , so certainly cause cancer in the fish too,
hence why most walmart fish are in poor health
and die after shortened life spans.

I agree with Cali, its certainly a question
of provenance.
I found here that most fish stores buy there fish
from a well know fish farm "Seagrest Farms"
in Florida, but their farm is overrun with camallanus
nematodes, and so my tanks ended up that way too.
I now ask in all the pet stores, do you buy from this
place, and If so, I simply dont buy those fish.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure,
I think.


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"You would be amazed the number of chemicals that
walmart dumps on their fish daily.
Its deplorable - as most of them cause cancer in
people , so certainly cause cancer in the fish too,
hence why most walmart fish are in poor health
and die after shortened life spans."

Does this go for Petsmart too?? What do they add & how do you know this information?