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Is this a recipe for disaster? the Jack dempsey is 6", the convict is 3", and it is a 55 gallon tank.

its hard to say,i would try it first but just be ready to intervine fast with a divider or another tank thats ready to go,when my jd went nutso he was only like 4 inches long and was intolerant of his tankmates in a 200galhe is now in with a female in there own tank,as for the convict also its hard to say,ive had cons that were just plane nasty,and the cons i have now are a great addition to my community cichlid tank,as for the pictus,ive kept them with cichlids but it had to be moved to a tank with less aggression once the cichlids got a bit bigger,if you want something to clean up after your 2 cichlids grab a pleco,thse guys do great with cichlids and get to a big size too.hope this helps,i would give it a go,they could all live together fine but like i said just be ready..good luck

I think I will give it a try, worst case scenario, I can put the pictus in my 10g overnight (with 3 zebra danios right now) until I return him.

yeah thats a good idea,and just remember just because we say it,dosent make it so,what i mean is there is always the exception to the rule,you mite put the jd and your con and the pictus and they mite be fine together,it just depends on the fish when you get them in there with one another,on the other hand it counld turn into world war 3,thats why i said try it first.for example,ive had lots of people tell me that green terrors are 1 nasty fish,well i guess i was luckywith my 1, he never shows any aggression towards he tankmates(except for spawning time ofcourse)anyway good luck...

If you have problems with the Pictus catfish being beaten up by your Cichlids, and you're looking for a catfish that will live with them, check out the Family Doradidae These fishes are the M1 Abrams of the fish world - very heavily armoured and more to the point, covered with rows of spines and serrations that make them all but impregnable. A Raphael Catfish, for example, is basically a kind of mediaeval spiked ball with fins, and even the most aggressive of Cichlids will only try taking on a Raphael and its spiny armour once. Cichlids are, after all, intelligent fishes, and the moment a Cichlid learns that the Catfish is effectively covered from head to tail in its own personal razor wire, the Cichlid will leave well alone.

In addition, the Doradids have a particularly vicious defensive mechanism for any fish that IS stupid enough to persist in attacking. The pectoral fins of Doradids are powerfully built, with strong musculature operating them. The front ray of the pectoral fin is hardened and spiny, in some species bearing triple rows of serrations. The fin can be clamped against the side of the body, where the fish happens to have a particularly nasty set of serrations that mate up with the fin. If you get your fingers caught in this region, then you are going to experience a LOT of pain. The problem being that the fish clamps down harder if you try to struggle free, so there are basically two solutions to the problem if you're stupid enough to stick your fingers there - one, pull your finger out and strip away a LOT of flesh (you'll need some pretty extensive surgery to your fingers afterwards) or two, stay still and wait for the fish to let go of its own accord.

Needless to say, other predators in the same native waters tend to give Doradids a wide berth. Even Piranhas tend to think twice about taking on a healthy Doradid.

If the Pictus Cat proves to be a less than optimal choice, a Raphael Cat will fit the bill nicely. Or, for that matter, one of several other heavily armoured and spiny Doradids. Planet Catfish has a nice selection of underwater battle tanks that will survive everything your Cichlids can throw at them and more besides.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

hmmmm, a Raphael Catfish seems more appealing as of now. Im not worried about my JD at all, he got less aggressive as he got older, he used to be just plain nasty, now hes fairly peaceful. My convict, however, is still a vicious hot shot.

Ill check out both, if I got a bigger pictus cat, would that help?

Size might help matters, yes.

If your Pictus Cat is a similar size to your Convict, chances are the Convict might be tempted to back off.

My old Braz Walker pocket book says that Pimelodus pictus should reacn 3-4 inches as an adult, but that book was written in 1971, so ... here's the Planet Catfish page for Pimelodus pictus. Likewise, here's the page for Platydoras costatus, the Striped Raphael, to help you with your decision. Note that there are two similar Doradids known as 'Raphaels' - the other being Orinocodoras eigenmanni. Both are heavily armoured and spiny.




Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I two would second the Raphael cat idea.
These cats are absolutely gorgeous.
I recently, due to an error where my LFS
sold the 3 brochis splendens I had already paid
for to be put on hold, acquired a gorgeous striped
raphael cat.
I can attribute to the fact that these fish can be
heck to latch onto, the LFS girl made the mistake of grasping the net the raphael was in, and shortly was
bleeding all over and the net was destroyed.
Definitely a good choice with aggressive fish.

Also, I have heard 5-6 inches is max size for a striped
raphael, but one member on here has a whopping 9 incher.
I hope mine gets close to that size, that is impressive.

Interestingly, my raphael cat and my imitator catfish
have become best of pals, they swim side by side, hunt pellets together () and even stay side by side in the same cave. Its great.


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sorry to crash your thread and jump off topic fishandrew,hey calilasseia those doradids from family doradidae that you mentioned above to be honest ive never even herd of one or seen one,do you think one of these guys could hold its own against my big flowerhorn,i noticed that you said even a pirana will think twice b4 messing with 1,can i get 1 in australia and how much ruffly would it be,i ask because ive always wanted some sort of catfish to clean up a bit after my flowerhorn,the last big pleco i put in with him lasted about 2 weeks then he killed it overnite,so it would have to be one TUFF CATFISH to survive his expolsive nasty temper,what do you rekon cal?

You mean you've never encountered a Raphael Cat before Hokese?

Raphaels (whether they be Platydoras costatus or the similar looking Orinocodoras eigenmanni) have been around in the hobby in the UK for some time, and probably even longer in the States. I know that Australia tends to be hyper-strict about importations of exotic animals, given the country's somewhat chequered past experience, but I'd be surprised if Raphaels were on the black list.

Basic introduction to the Doradidae can be found here]http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/family.php?family_id=12[/link]. The Planet Catfish page on Platydoras costatus can be found [link=here]http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=166[/link], and on that page, [link=this photo illustrates very nicely indeed how spiny these fishes are - the double row of spines on the heavily reinforced and armoured first pectoral rays, plus the various body spines and the armoured head case are all nicely visible in that image.

As for whether your Flowerhorn would be sufficiently in control of its temper to back off after discovering how well armoured and spiny that catfish was is moot, as Flowerhorns are psychotic berserkers (as you've doubtless found out on numerous occasions!) but if the fish atill possesses at least some of the native intelligence of most Cichlids, it should get the message soon enough that trying to attack a fish that is covered in its own personal razor wire is probably a bad idea.

A smaller species of Doradid is Agamyxis pectinifrons, known as the Spotted Raphael (Planet Catfish page here]http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=313[/link]), while if you're looking for a larger Doradid for a large aquarium, then there's a choice of species available ... if you want a REALLY large one, try Megalodoras uranoscopus, namely [link=this fish]http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=143[/link] which becomes over two feet long! This is the juggernaut I once described in another thread as Megalodoras irwini, a name that has now been relegated to junior synonym status. Oh, and take a look at the [link=body spines that a big specimen of this fish has at its disposal ...


One other feature of several Doradid catfishes that may catch you by surprise if you're not expecting it - they're known as "Talking Catfishes". This is because they make audible grunting noises. Why they do this is open to question, but if you hear a porcine grunting noise coming from a freshwater aquarium whose pig population is manifestly zero, then chances are the cause is a Raphael or one of its relations - Acanthodoras spimosissimus is particularly vocal (and also VERY spiny as its scientific name suggests - go take a look here and see how much of a battle tank this fish is for its size).

Oh, by the way, this photo of the related Acanthodoras cataphractus illustrates VERY nicely indeed the row of spines that are used in conjunction with the pectoral fin as I described above. Imagine getting your finger trapped between that spiny pectoral fin and those spines ...

Basically, if you hunt through the list of species, chances are you'll find one that could fit your circumstances with respect to the issue of finding a catfish that will survive the rough and tumble of your various Cichlid aquaria. Your biggest problem is likely to be finding individuals for sale in some cases (Megalodoras uranoscopus is very definitely a special order fish, given that it's a 27 inch fish as an adult!) and you may find that even the more commonly available Raphaels might be subject to import restrictions, but if you can lay your hands on a Raphael, it should be capable of keeping even the nastiest of your Cichlids at bay. If the Flowerhorn proves to be too much of a berserker for a Platydoras costatus, then it's time to call in the big guns and let Megalodoras uranoscopus loose - that fish is very definitely an underwater M1 Abrams main battle tank, and even when your Flowerhorn is experiencing a terminal case of the red mist descending before the eyes, it should find the giant Megalodoras too big and too spiny a handful!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

ok once again thanx for all the great info cali,ive seen and had a raphael cat,but to be honset,i rekon my fh would thrash it in a heartbeat,i can not decribe this bad boys temper to you guys,as cali says,he is always happy to get into some aquarium combat,to call him extremly aggressive or baddly nasty is to put it mild,he has killed fish like red devil,texas,convict,absolutely flogged a red terror,in the end i just gave up trying to mix him,therfore i was thinking the megalodoras uranoscopus,but a smaller one to start with,i know your probly thinking that im going overboard with my fhs temper,but once he gets it in his head to rid them from his home,he just does not stop till there gone or dead,i think with a raphael cat,the problem would be protecting the eyes and around the head,thats why im oppting for something with a bit more amour,because if i know my fh,he will have more than a few goes a what ever,before he claims defeat and backs off,even if it means hurting himself in the process,he once done more damage to himself knocking down a divider to get throo and kill a male covictnow thats deditcation.so cal do you think the catfish i metioned(megalodoras)wil be ok with jaws(my fh)and will it be alrite in soft neutral water..

Soft neutral water should do fine. It's a South American fish after all.

Oh, make sure your catfish has at least one decent cave to call its own. Ideally sized so that the catfish can fit in snugly and present something spiny at the entrance to the Flowerhorn.

Now you've mentioned that your Flowerhorn is seriously psychotic in the presence of other Cichlids, but what about non-Cichlid fishes? It's just possible that your Flowerhorn lets the red mist develop because it regards other Cichlids as opposition, but might prove to be slightly less berserk with something like a catfish. It's a notion worth considering.

Additionally, you might like to try the following. Give the Flowerhorn a diversion when you add the catfish. Insert the catfish at one end of the aquarium (ideally an end with a nice cave already set up for the catfish) while you have a mirror positioned at the other end. I gather that seeing his reflection will give your Flowerhorn something else to think about while you sneak the catfish in.

Once the catfish is home, give the Flowerhorn a nice meal f earthworms. If there's one thing Cichlids love eating (and I suspect Flowerhorns are no exception) it's earthworms. Once he's got a full belly, he might be less inclined to go looking around the aquarium seeking trouble.

However, given your Flowerhorn's propensity for gratuitous violence, you might be wise to make plans to rehouse the catfish if it transpires that even the "battle tank" Megalodoras finds itself unduly harassed.

Mind you, if that was me in your shoes, I'd be looking at finding someone else to take the Flowerhorn off my hands ... a fish with that kind of attitude would be rather too much trouble for me.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

oh i could never get rid of my flowerhorn,yes he is a killing machine,and is psychotic as u put it(i like that 1),but despite his truley barbaric nature,he ozzes personality,the subject of getting rid of him,this has been dwelled upon before,however, when i purchased him(1 inch long)he had killed the other 2 fhs that were in his tank(at 1 inch long)so i new just how nasty he was b4 i got him,so making that comitiment ill stick to it.and now that hes like 28cm he is just cool.plus cause he has his own condo so he dosent cause me any problems,althoo putting in the megalodoras will be a challange,anyway getting back to the cats,what do you think would make the best type of cave for him,as you said nice and snug fitting,what about some pvc pipe?also as for not just disliking cichlids,i put in a huge pleco,it lasted about 2 weeks, then i found it dead one morning with no eyes and cut up BAAAADDD...and he had a few places to hide...

PVC pipes are frequently recommended as hiding places for Doradids if you can't create natural looking bogwood tangles. However, remember that with a Megalodoras you will be looking at upgading those pipes width wise fairly frequently as it grows. It will probably grow pretty fast too ...

If your Flowerhorn is a 28 cm specimen, you should be looking at making the catfish bigger than it - see if you can lay your hands on a 13 inch catfish. That should give your Flowerhorn something to think about.

Oh, and make sure that any PVC piping is weighted down. Not just because the catfish will be capable of shifting it, but because I've heard of Cichlids trying to get at other fishes in PVC pipes by picking the pipes up and swinging them about!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

ok so ill probly get some pvc then,and ill find a way to make it, so it cant be shiftedi could probly make a good cave/hiding place from bogwood,but i was thinking the pvc will be better for protection and shelter from the fh,if my fh does get a bit too nasty,these spikes and amour on the megalodoras can they inflict bad injuries on my fh.also if i cant get a megalo in my area,can YOU rekomend any other cats that could stand up to this kind of aggression?

Only thing I know that might take your Flowerhorn's ornery temper apart from a big spiny Doradid is a Red Tail - a hungry 3 foot one

Seriously, I think if the Megalodoras can't stand the heat, you're effectively looking at keeping that Flowerhorn on its own full stop.

Oh, if the caftish feels the need to USE those spines, it can inflict a LOT of damage. The trick here is to try and integrate these fishes so that they don't come to blows. And, if they do, have a "Plan B" in place ready to deal with any sign that the Flowerhorn just isn't going to be compatible with anything.

You know, I have this mental picture of your Flowerhorn squaring up to a saltwater crocodile and saying "come on if you think you're hard enough ..."


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

lolyeah its like that,and if he cant live with a megalo,i will just keep him by himself,this WILL BE the last time i do try to mix him,its funny you metion crocdiles,cause he has the patience of one,in a way thats what im a bit concerned about,my fh just waitng outside the cave/pvc and starving the cat.this is how he eventully killed the big pleco, he just kept on waiting and in the end the pleco was forced out to eat and then boom he got it...when i do give it a go,ill keep a close eye on them,because if i know my fh,he will have more than a few goes at the megalo,and im worried that it will be forced to defend itself and hurt the fh.i will try it,but the megalo will probly end up in with my jds if i know my fh.i could put my fh in a lake and he still would kill intruders.hes at the point now where ANY TANK that he gets put into,he wants it all for himself,b4 i moved, at my old place hes tank was rite next to the arm of the couch and when my little dog used to sit on it,that would drive my fh nuts,to the point where he was splashing about that much i would shoo my dog of the couch,as soon as i can figure out how to post pics ill show you just what im talking about..then you will see why he is able to take on anything with a second thoughtalso,hows this for a bad idea one of my mates knows how nasty he is and siad to try a arrowana with him,i just said yeah rite,that would be a messy,bloody fight tp the death....also cali,when you said that if the cat feals the need to use the spines/spikes he can enflict damage,what is it they do,do they sting or inject a poision of some sort..

I just wanted to mention that personally,
I wouldnt put PVC in my aquarium, as PVC
leeches Dioxins into the water, which can
cause cancer and other diseases.

Youd be better off to go with something
in plastic or wood.

Raphael cats are cool. When they feel afraid, they
tend to gulp in air and make their bodies slightly
larger, then they contract all their muscles to make
their spines stand up.
Most fish who try to take a bite out of one end up
with a seriously sore mouth, and never try again.


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mmmmm,i didnt know that about the pvc,but ive used it b4,and my fish didnt get sick...

Here is a good article on the dangers
of using PVC

http://www.ecocycle.org/askeco-cycle/2005/0318.cfm

Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
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