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Hi all,

Long time no post.

My question is: My wife and I aquired 3 Jack dempseys almost 2 years a go from the Zoo. We brought them home when they were about 3/4 to 1 inch long. One of the fish is about 2.5 to 3 inches in length, one is about 1.75, and the last is about 1.25 inches. Is it just me, or should these fish be larger then they are?

The fish are in a 37g cube. Only other fish are 2 CAEs'.

I am feeding Cichlid gold and wardley cichlid crumbles. I really don't have a set feeding pattern mostly every other day sometimes it's every day.

My tank is stacked from bottom to top with rocks. Plenty of places to hide. The filter is a Penguin 330. Some might say I have to big of a filter (causing stress). This tank does not have to much water movement as the rocks baffle it really well.

My plan has always been to transfer these guys into a larger tank when they get bigger. But this has yet to happen.


Thanks is advance!

Rob

There's no way you have JD's. At 2 years they should be full grown, 8-9" for a male or sometimes larger and 6-8" for a female. Post a pic.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Highly agree. When I had mine, I bought him in November, and was about 1 1/2in long, by May he was almost over 5 inches long. And also with 2 of those guys in that tank, if they truely are JD's, its way to small of a tank for them.

You should take some pics and throw them up for review.

Fish tanks are an expensive addiction

Well I can't link to my pics directly so here is a photobucket link http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v228/rub1978/Fish/

thos are JD's well they might have got stunted cuz i have to many JD's to remember so yea they are realy small ones are they very mean?

wow, guess I was wrong. they definitely look like JD but stunted at that size has to be a record. I would have imagined a stunted JD would have been around 5". Also, they still look like juvies. A 37 should have been plenty room to grow them out. Have they formed a pair or ever spawned?

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

No, they are not mean. They seem to get along rather well.

No, I have not had any spawning.

maybe u got lucky and got a dwarf non aggrisive cool little fish if u get to breeding them i want to see how big the fry get and if they are mean. JDs are really cool fish i love them alot

mmm,plane and simple i rekon its the tank,IMO,its to small,even for juvies,ive always upgradded fish b4 they NEED to be,what im saying is,they have been stunted.as said above,at 2 years they should be large,the last pair of jds i had outgrew the 55 gal in like 4 months,then they even got to big for my 89gal,after that i traded them in,so yeah,your fellas should be big and robust at 2 years old!so somethings not rite there...some mite disagree with me here,but for jds i wouldnt start them off as juvies in anything under a 55 gal,and thats very temperareymine outgrew it so fast....

I kinda disagree Hokese, I grew my pair out in a 30G till they hit 4" for the male & about 31/2 for the femme. Following that my pair has been in a 55 for well over yr and have thrived in that tank, male is 9" and femme 6". I dunno it seems like an odd occurrence, plus the aggression should still be there if they are 2years old. Plus I would've thought that while stunted the fish would still look like adults, these guys till look pretty much like juvies.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Well me i just start my jds of in a 55 gallon and dont upgrade them and they dont get picked on or pick on my other fish but i did have 1 jd that killed all the fish in y 55 gallon includeing a dovii chiclid that i the next day was gona put in my 180 gallon tank with like 2 other fish the jd was 11 inches and my dovii was like 16 or 17 inches long so it was a big lost but i gave that jd a 150 gallon tank to his self and a pretty little girl of his own. Its one of my favorite tanks and i get a lot of babies! its just weird cuz my friend grew a jd to about 8 inches is a 29 gallon tank!

Stunting isnt purely related to the tanksize, its often complicit yes, but dwarfing is a metabolic process, an underdevelopment caused by any one or several of a whole range of factors, primary among which is lacking o2 saturation of the blood , combined with nutrient intake- in short its to do with respiration and digestion and the two are linked. Its possible to dwarf a fish with lack of fitness, poor diet, or dietary intake that is compromised by a low metabolism, and that can be because of insufficient temps, water with detectable ammonia or nitrite, and high nitrate levels, ph shocks and changes to do with excessive water changes because of the lack of volume in small aquaria, and the ph range also being beyond acceptable limits.

So to clear up which factor is causing it you'd do the following, basically research anything that could lead to a lower blood 02 level than normal.

1) state water chemistry perameters. the usual nitrogen compounds.
2) quote how much water you change at WC intervals and how the tank ph and hardnesses differ from the tank ambient usual. Any ph shift can cause gill lamellae mucosal responses, and this will affect blood o2 saturation.
3) check temps both for regular level and any day/night drops.
4)what are the regular ph andd hardness ranges?
5) the dietary balance- what food are you actually giving the fish, how much how often, do they really have diet variety?
6) what is the o2 saturation of the water before and after WC's? Also work out the relative 02 level of the water vs the temps, and use a test kit as well as theory to define accurate o2 calculations. Relative surface area, aeration and water disturbance will also be factors affecting the outcome.

...and lastly depends on stocking and compatability
7) check for evidence of mental and behavioural suboordination from other fish.

Fish with suboordination issues rarely grow as well as those that are dominant or not subject to behavioural repression, it affects their feeding, their surface bloodflow, and will probably affect their normal hormonal development as concerns breeding response and the growth hormone releases that go with it. The suboordinated fish's lifestly tends to lead to underdevelopment, from not getting the feeding opportunities it requires, not occupying aquarium niches that help it breathe, rest, and regulate itself thermically, controlling its bloodflow to colour cells ( cant normalise skin flow of blood if you get a kicking for doing it), reducing its freedom of movement and exercise. Just as a runt of a puppy might not get a share of the teat and may die if support is not given, a fish that is suboordinated may fail to mature and die in an aquarium if not segregated from its dominator and allowed to flourish free of repression.

And yes, those are JD's and yes they are dwarfed, and I would suggest you get to correcting it asap before lasting damage is done and their longevity severely reduced, and incidences of organ failure become many times more likely. Big tanks tend to be recommended because of the stability they offer, and its stability that defines growth in most fish species.There are exceptions of course, i'm sure at one point or another we have all seen those fish that have grown too large for their aquaria, but they are not the norm, by head of capita they are something of an exception (often fish with hybrid vigour, hyperthyroidisn, sometimes cancer, rarely true genetic toughness), most die from environmental damage before reaching those size dimensions, but lets face it, dead fish, or a fish too large for its aquaria taking environmental damage, or the dwarfed fish in a similar situation, neither is acceptable fishkeeping, and the judgement to be made is the same whatever the situation, and the solution the same. Tank must be bigger, the conditions changed, or the feeding changed. Its not right to sit on the fish size and the tanksize, and assume its alive and therefore nothing need be done. Thats a foolish fishkeeper at work, and the defense on the lips of every naive child and stupid old fart in fishkeeping since the dawn of time. (not including anyone here in that comment, but gawd, get out there, youll hear it enough to make you vomit blood and spit fire). Its the excuse on every abusive fishkeepers lips in the world, and their way of telling you they dont care and wont do a damn thing about it. Its self enforced ignorance and its common as muck.

Lacking stability , even when the water changes are done to keep nitrates low still tend to cause the gill response I mentioned, effectively giving you a fish with insufficient blood saturation of 02 for healthy normal development, much as a severely asthmatic child may never develop the mass and vigour of a healthy child. Compromised breathing efficiency has its effects, none of them beneficial, which is why so many overstocked malawi aquaria, and small goldfish bowls are basiically hopeless even if the keeper puts in the work on keeping the water quality spick and span.Much of overfiltering culture is implicit in this too, yes its fine to overfilter- usually beneficial - But NOT when ist to combat overstock, because it just forces the WC level up, and that affects stability. Its not ok to have large species or overstocking in a small tank just cos someone whacked a dirty great filter on the tank rated several hundred percent above normal. Youve still got to get rid of that nitrate and if that means big proportionate WC's, then you'll be pushing against real stability, and that will show in the development and health of the fish. TBH if you wanted to overstock you use a sump to keep total water volume up, and if you want that- then why not just go bigger anyway? Pretty sure the fish down want to be packed in like sardines just for the owners pleasure- theyd rather have a life quality.

Small aquaria, big fish - mugs game. Stability and peak environmental midranges optimum for species preferences are very important, they a key to normal development, health and breeding success of fry and adult fish and therefore successful fishkeeping.

This whole smaller than recommended aquaria, dont worry about the ph too much, you can make up for overstocking by doing lots of WC's rubbish culture is whats keeping fish small, short lived, and not breeding, not reaching full colour, keeping them under organ function stress, and consequently making them more likely to fall to disease.

Somewhere along the line people started getting too permissive about what is do-able and not only is it killing fish much as neglect always used to, its leading to shortened perceptions of adult fish sizes and shortened perceptions of longevity, and often a real perception of fish being less aggressive than they should really be especially amongst the cichlid owners in a huge number of fishkeeping communities.

Thats what you get back from a culture for saying "it can be done" too often. If you want healthy fish , it really cant, and more people would have better , and healthier fish if they learned to say no a little more often. The culture is making people dwarf their fish. Not that it cant be undone if caught early enough, but all the same its not good that it happens at all. Its one of my favourite bugbears of the moment.

Here's a couple of posts about uaru and severums on another forum im a disease advisor on, it might help flesh out for you how severe the problem can be. In fact in the last year Ive bought 6 fish I had no real intention of owning, presicely because I wished to help several fish having these problems , underfeeding through to undersizing, purely to save their lives. The uaru had been kept in 25 gallons and the severum in 30 gallons respectively. Now in 75 gallons to promote a workable situation in which I can reverse the dwarfing, and with the uaru its certainly working, though with 9 months of severe dwarfing im not quite as hopeful for the sevvie.... As soon as they both break 5 inches they will be off to my 250 gals.

http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16969&forum=23&post_id=172700#forumpost172700

http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17624&forum=23&post_id=172353#forumpost172353


Big fish really should go into aquaria intended for their projected adult size as early as possible. Successional tanksizes are in my opinion, largely a waste of time, and money too. Besides, theres no better way to avoid beginners mistakes like finding you havent got, or cant afford a large enough aquarium than by buying that 55-75 for a JD, or that 100-200 gal aquarium for an oscar, a 55 for a goldie or an angel from the very start. Especially with cichlids, most of em hit adult sizes in 6 months to a year. You see, in a smaller aquaria its never really possible to see when the point of dwarfing starts, ergo, people should not be encouraged to have cichlids in small aquaria and successional tanksizes. Generally just go for the adult tanksize straight away, and avoid all the skewed perspectives, and the fish undergoing dwarfing before the keeper realises.

Its not like under optimum growth you'll have long to wait before the fish fils the space nicely, not only with its size, but with a much improved presence of personality, vibrant colour, and quite possibly, a shower of fry or two. The experience of owning an undwarfed fish is soooo different from owning a dwarfed fish, not only on the size, but on the behaviour and vigour too.

It could be simplified so that no-one makes the mistake TBH, simple A-B stuff. If the fish aint as big as it should be- get it a bigger tank! As far as Im concerned it should be every fishkeeping guru and advisors responsibility to get those minimum tanksize recommendations out of the gutter and onto something more progressive , more befitting of the species under discussion. We've seen the results of undersizing everywhere, and its become a fundamental health problem for fish on a global scale.

It has to be moved on from, and if people think that will narrow the popularity of the hobby, then frankly - GOOD. To many millions of large fish are sold to people under false pretences of growth and suitable housing every year. To tell someone the truth is not to alienate them, and if it does - then you lose nothing but another batch of unsuitable pet owners. Those that can take the info on the chin will doubtless make excellent fishkeepers and the ones that can't, well, they won't be missed. At least not unless you own a petco or a walmart , or the UK version, P&h. lol For those without a vested interest in the selling of large quantities of fish to those not capable of housing them properly it should be an issue of absolute clarity. Go as big as you can on tanksize, and only buy those fish you can house properly for life and estimate for maximum growth potential, and never push the minimums.

There is a fundamental difference between keeping a fish alive, and allowing it to reach its full potential. The first isnt good fishkeeping,its doing little more than maintaining an emergency status as a permanent measure, the latter is real , proper, honest, and complete fishkeeping. The only version worth bothering with in my opinion, and the the only sensible way to approach long term fishkeeping, and when I say long term, with cichlid growth rates involved, you have maybe less than 6 months to get with the program on these issues or the fish's health may be ruined for life and its premature death inevitable.

(grabs soapbox and walks off)



Seriously though, I hope that gives you a handle on dwarfing issues, and that you can use the knowledge to help your fish. Dwarfing is often quoted, but little understood, and getting in the way of understanding it is a huge keeper culture of people who dont like to be told they are undersizing for their fish, and an industry with a vested interest in fuelling small tank culture. Hope this helps you cut through the BS you'll doubtless hear on the subject at one time or another.

thats cool wi,each to there own mate,as i said i just start em off in 55s now,the nutso pair i had just seemed to outgrow it so dam fast,they overtook my oscars in size,just to give you some idea how fast they grew!anyway as said above,do some research,and i 2nd the idea of getting them into something bigger...plus giving them the quality of life they diserve...

No doubt Hokese, i agree with you that the biggest tank possible is the best way to go. i was just pointing out that it was possible w/o jeopardizing health tat you could grow them out in a smaller tank for the 1st few months. It wasn't meant as an argument but a different alternative. It's quite possible that my guys could be an inch or more larger if I had a bigger tank for them. I'm just surprised that these fish stayed so small and have survived together as like I said earlier I would have expected that they would at least look like adults. Two yrs is a substantial amount of time I would think that their health would have been jeopardized by now. Additionally I believe that while not optimal a 37 should be large enough for these guys to have grown out. My prediction would have been that only one would have made it and eliminated the other two.

Try a bigger tank if you can afford it & see if they grow out. I guess I'd be curious if they would still grow out or if it was too late for them to develop.

Large fish definitely deserve the right accomoadations but I'll admit to not always doing the right thing for my own selfish reasons. Call me hedonistic, but I'm more concerned with why I keep my guys more than their own comfort. With that said my fish are well kept.



By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

mmm,its a weird 1,i would think that,ether 1 would kill the other 2(as u said wi)or a pair would have formed by now(must be all the same sex or not compatable)then the pair kill the last 1.jeez they are small for 2 years,they look like the jd fry i raised,but at weeks old not years!
also rob,i have a question,in the post above you wrote its stacked from top to bottom with rocks,and theres not much movement cause of all the rocks,did you leave any open spaces for the fish to swimm out in the open so to speak,plus they need open space to graze and pick throo the gravell,and as a 37g CUBE isnt very big to start with,perhaps you went a bit overboard with the rocks,and used to much of the tankspace,thus no room to grow,can you post a pic of the tank they are in from the front showing the rocks?just something else to consider

Probably the dwarfing preventing full sexual maturation.Simply put, not in condition to breed, or feeling themselves enough to show territoriality. Happens with underdeveloped fish. Thats why you get so many cichlid profiles that state aggressive species as peaceful etc. Its just lack of development, something lacking environmentally, metabolically or dietarily. If theres organ compression because of dwarfing,then theres gonna be increased blood toxicity by complicity, cos the renal system is under stress, and the liver plays a role in gladular development too, so the behaviour is inevitably off really. Maldigestion will be an issue too, and it can become a vicious circle of lacking nutrient quality from lack of digestive efficiency. All this leads to illness, and in my book any fish that isnt reaching its potential has a health problem, therefore its not proper fishkeeping and every effort should be made to reverse as much damage as you can, as soon as you can.

Ive never accepted a partial dwarfing as an acceptable practise. The fish's needs are either being met or they arent, and with that in mind, im not quite sure I get Ives reasoning on the issue. Whats the point in taking a risk on ill health? Doesnt failing to reach full potential implicitly mean that they arent well looked after? You wouldnt do that to any other kind of animal, or your own kid, so why do it to a fish? Isnt providing for their need to reach normal size a prerequisite of good fishkeeping, and how can you claim they are well looked after if they dont? I dont get that at all. I probably partially dwarfed a couple of angels when I started out, but I consider it a mong-up, and I wouldnt let it happen again. One of them died 2 years prematurely, thats reason enough for me not to do it again.

Bit like our BA's, ours are aggressive because we cracked it, got full maturation out of them, other people either deny them food at a young age, deny them the protien and mineral balance and underfeed them as adults, and undersize aquaria, take the stuff about them being a hardy species a bit too literally. TBH just about all my cichlids are mean, and they all breed.

Sure cichlids have some variation in personality from individual to individual, but even my uaru and severums kick off now and again, TBH ive found my Uaru quite suprisingly aggressive on and off, not the wilting flower of a fish so often described in literature, liplocks , sidebites, fin nipping, the lot, and they dont seem to be afraid to take fish bigger than they are on either! Ive got feisty laetara, and rainbow cichlids, even my festivums and keyholes kick off occassionally. If the fish arent reaching breeding condition you wont see much of that. I think half of the variability in personality is actually down to the poor raising of fry and maintenance issues myself. Lot of "guru's" who post fish profiles and caresheets havent actually got the care quite as right as they think they have. Bit like ashtmatics, starved or obese humans generally have a lower sex drive. Happens with most animals TBH.

what do you mean about my reasoning? I feel that you should have as big of a tank as possible and if you can't house them then you shouldn't. I just stated that early on there should not be an issue with housing large cichlids in a smaller tank. It can be effective, we're not talking 10 or 20G here. I was also just stating that at times I have been guilty of putting fish or too many fish in a too small tank. Doesn't make it right, but I think something that people do often. This mistake has actually led me to having multiple tanks.

Also please do not compare any animal to children or humans for that matter, its not a comparable argument. I do not keep my children, I raise my children. Also my children went from crib to toddler bed to twin bed as they aged and progressed. One can easily argue that keeping fish in general is not good practice unless you have a lake in your yard. Anyways, forgive me for going in another direction.

I know nothing about stunting or dwarfing as this has never happened to me nor have i actually seen it. I have seen poor conditions in which JD's have grown out to 10" in 20G, unbelievable. You wrote a some very informative info & I do not challenge that. I just wonder if its too late for these fish to grow out.

Hey Hokese I didn't even think about the possible space objects in the tank were taking up. Quite possible this was an issue. Post a pic of the entire tank.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher