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I am toying with the idea of setting up my empty 55g as a Mbuna tank. I am a beginner when it comes to African cichlids, so I have a few questions.

Will a 55g be big enough? I don't think the fish I want are extremely aggressive.

I would like to have some plants, if possible. I have seen a picture of a beautiful planted 125g African tank. I don't want to do another heavily planted one, but I'd like some hardy plants. The most light I want is 2wpg, so I'd need to stick with some stem plants (if possible), java fern, anubias, and the like. I know the pH will determine what plants I can keep, as well as the fish.

The fish I would like are Yellow labs and Red Zebras. I would also like a blue type that would get along with these two. I know I need groups of each, with more females than males.

Should I use a cichlid substrate like the Eco-Complete African substrate? Or something else? My tap pH is around 7...goes up to 7.4 after sitting overnight. I don't know the KH of the tap, but in my planted 55g it was 6 the last time I checked. I know I'll need something to raise the pH towards 8.

So, am I going in the right direction? Will the fish I want work? What other fish, if any would you suggest to go with these? What about plants...has anyone had success with Africans and plants?

Thanks in advance!
Kristin

*Kristin*

I'm no expert but I have been keeping Mbuna for about a yr, so I probably know more from research from actual experience. However I do know from experience that the red zebras will work with the labs. There are a few different blue species you can keep the first that come to mind are socolofi. You can also try cobalt zebras (maylandia callinos)but they might breed with the reds. However I keep two different type of zebras together and they have never showed any interest in each other.

55 is plenty big enough and the rules for stocking the tank as far as fish size per gallon does not necessarily apply. In other words you can probably keep somewhere between 15-20 4-6" fish in this tank. I do not go as high as 20 personaly but many do. I'm at 16 myself. The main idea is rock work, I tried plants but it didnt work however I'm no plant expert as far as knowing what will work with these fish. As far as substrate I have dolomite to buffer the PH but I wish I did sand as I later found out you can put crushed coral in the filter for the buffering. So really you can use anything you want if you put the coral in the filter. The general rule from what I have been told is you make the least aggresive fish with the greatest numbers and work you way down with the most aggresive with the least. I also have a BN in the tank and a syno.

Glad to see your interst in these fish as I love mines. Lastly there are a few sites out there that are geared to malawi's which I would recomend, I'm not sure if its ok to mention other sites but try Malawi Mayhem & you can get alot of good info & advice. There's also a few other members on this site far more experinced than me. My main advice is alot of rocks

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Thanks for the info!

I actually have been doing more searching and found the profile to socolofi and they are very pretty!

If I had the labs and socolofi, what other orange/red fish would you suggest other than the red zebras?

I never thought about putting crushed coral in the filter. I plan on getting either a XP2 or XP3, so that would work out great and probably be cheaper if I go for pool filter sand as substrate.

I think I may get a BN. What type of syno do you have? And what kind of rocks? Sorry about all the questions...

*Kristin*

no problem about the questions, wish I had all the answers. As far as a redish fish I believe most are fairly rare or at least for me it has been. Theres a beatiful red fish called Labeotropheus trewavasae "mpanga red" but I only seen it once & it was not for sale. So really I can't help you there. I' have forgotten what kind of Syno I have and have to go back to the LFS to see what he is.It's only been in the tank for about a week & I havent seen him out yet. I can only see him peeking out through a cave he has claimed.Hopefully it'll get used to the tank and start coming out soon.

When it comes to rocks, many use lake or river rocks and simply steralize them with their preferred method(s). I have a few of these but I have mostly purchased mine but not exactly sure what they are. I also have two large lava houses(rock) that has helped stabalize my PH. You can also use holey rock or really anything that you like as long as it is cleaned properly.Stay away from wood only because it can nuetralize the PH.

Again I'm no expert especially with the equipment, so you probably know better what will work for your filration. I use a fluval cannister 304 and an airstone just in case & have had no problems.

On a sidenote due to all the stones/rocks used in a correct setup be prepared to take alot of time when doing the maintenance & from when I've done my full cleanings my setup never comes out the same mostly because its impossible to get everything back where it was. So there are times when I'm happier with my tank than others because at times its just how the rocks lie. I hope another more experience member can give you some advice or correct me if they see something wrong. However GL with the research & hope I have helped even a little bit with your enthusiasm towards these fish.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Well I've been browsing through profiles and getting more advice. I know I want a group of Cynotilapia afra (Cobue). They are so pretty! I like Pseudotropheus saulosi, but the females are yellow, so if I got those, I wouldn't get the Yellow labs. Or I would go with Pseudotropheus socolofi, the labs, and the Cobue...lol.

There are so many choices! I like Peacocks too though. And I was told that I could mix them, so I may go with the Cobue, either the labs or the saulosi, and maybe Aulonocara stuartgranti "German Red" if I can find some. But I have awhile before I set it up so I may change my mind a few times.

Thanks for answering my questions!

*Kristin*

I have stuck to Lake Malawi setup, so this means I can choose stock from subgroups; Mbunas, Haplochromines & Peacocks

For Red colour I have Red Empress (protomelas taeniolatus) and Rostratus (fossorochromis rostratus)

However, there is not much in the way of red for these types of fish - the Malawi crew.

I have had a think about why and come up with: they hang out in the rocks and thelight filtering through has a blue tinge, the blue allows them best camoflage.... notice how many have a blue face even if the body is contrast....

I think the blue face pokes out but is camoflaged, rest of body is in rock cover... body can be different colours for show/mating/territory as long as the face allows cover.... but that said the blues and yellows are the most popular.

I recently wanted to get some red colour in my mostly blue/yellow tank and had a bit of a time finding red guys.

Subsequently I do have one that may need to be rounded up and exchanged - he is a bit aggro which is why I didn't list him above but he is (astatotilapia latifasciata - Crimson Tide)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Thanks wish-ga!

I can deal with just yellow and blues...I just don't want to get 2 types that look similar...which is why I was going for different colors. But, I have noticed that there aren't alot of reds. There is some orange...but not as many as there are yellows and blues. They are all so gorgeous though.

You have a 75g, right wish-ga? What all do you have in it?

New stocking update:
Cynotilapia afra (Cobue)-1m/3f
Yellow labs-1m/3f
Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka"-1m/3f

How does that sound? I know someone I can get the labs and Eureka from...so all I'll need to find is the Cobue!

*Kristin*

Exercise some caution when mixing Mbuna and sand dwellers such as Aulonocara species.

The sand dwellers tend not to exhibit the same aggression levels as the Mbuna, because they range over wider areas in the wild, and are not confined to stretches of rock rubble. Therefore, extreme territoriality did not arise in this group. If kept with some of the ruffians among the Mbuna, they will suffer because the usual escape route open to them in the wild - scoot across the sand where the Mbuna don't venture out - isn't available to them. To make matters worse, some of them need caves for breeding, at which time conflicts with the Mbuna could arise - balancing the needs of these fishes with those of even the 'better behaved' Mbuna could prove tricky except in a VERY large setup.

Your best plan would be to stick with Yellow Labs, Iodotropheus sprengerae and other 'relatively peaceful' Mbuna (oh, the Iodotropheus will solve your red problem colour wise if you get the right colour morph!) and arrange the rocks so that the 'big pile' occupies one half of the tank, while the other half is more open with a few scattered rocks. Then, in theory, you could add one of the open sand dwelling species such as Aulonocara nyassae (the TRUE nyassae, NOT the assorted oddities that are mislabelled as such!). If you want to avoid clashes over caves, avoid jacobfreibergi and the other species that were formerly grouped in the Genus Trematocranus unless you have caves to spare for everyone in the tank. Another 'relatively peaceful' Mbuna listed as a possible tankmate is Metriaclima livingstonii, though I've not seen this fish and can't comment in depth upon it.

As for Pseudotropheus socolofi, exercise considerable care when picking this fish, and make sure that you obtain GENUINE specimens of socolofi. There is a very similar species, which in experienced dealerships is kept well away from socolofi because the two are very similar in appearance, enough to make separating them a task requiring dissection! This species is Pseudotropheus lucerna, which LOOKS an awful lot like socolofi, but there the similarity ends - lucerna is a vicious thug that will set about exterminating all the much milder fishes on your list within minutes of being introduced! Decent outlets that know their stuff will make sure you have genuine socolofi, so choose your source carefully, and make sure that the provenance of your fishes has been checked by trained personnel!

Oh, and bear in mind that while the Mbuna will need some greenstuff in the diet, this does NOT apply to Aulonocara species - they're carnivores and need a meaty diet.

As for substrate and rocks - well, one way of making sure your pH stays high is to use a calcareous sand such as coral sand in the aquarium (which will be vital if you want to keep Aulonocara species because they dig in sand for food in the wild, and don't like being kept over gravel) and use Tufa rock for your rockwork, because [1] it too is calcareous and will provide a lot of buffering capacity [2] it's soft and you can dig holes in it with a screwdriver to make intricate caves. Tufa rock is a soft limestone type rock which will help keep the water hard and alkaline. It's also likely to turn up at the dealer's in a range of weird and wonderful shapes to begin with, and if you're still not happy with the artistic possibilities it offers, you can dig out a screwdriver and start sculpting.

Hope this proves useful to you!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Calilasseia I found that info very helpful (but not the font which is diff to read for me, excuse if I have skimmed and misunderstood) ... I have been told to cut the bloodworms as they are too high in protein and will cause bloat (the thought of which alarmed me!). I am currently feeding:
pellets (contain protein) and spirulina flakes and fresh vegs

{btw Calilasseia I had to cut and paste your name... that combo of letters confuses me}

Girlie girl:
I have a 4ft tank (I don't think in terms of gallon volume)
Red empress
rostratus
Hongi island
Electric yellow
maingano
crimson tide
Venustus
Sunshine peacock aka chipoka
Mpanga

1/2 are juvies recently added & are settling in... setup could change due to personalities....

I have gravel substrate
rocks for hiding
free space for swimming
no plants
& bubbles for the pretty

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Wish-ga how do you find the Maingano's aggression towards the other fish you have?

---

Those who say they cant, Never will !!!

wow wish-ga, u have a variety of fish in your tank. Pretty impressive actually as a few of your guys are fairly hard to find, atleast in my area. Your right where the length of the tank is far more important for these fish than the volume.

I too also have a 4ft tank, but I've decided too keep strictly MBuna. I guess one of the decisions that have to be made for setting up a tank is does the individual want a Mbuna tank, a haps tank, or a Malawi tank (a mix of the two). While the water conditions would be the same, the tank setup would be very different. I personally would not mix haps and Mbuna unless I had a 5-6ft tank mostly b/c of these differences in the setup. I personally do not believe that 4ft is enough space to provide the rock work for Mbuna and open space for the haps. Plus many of the haps like the Venustus can grow into the 8-9" range, while the Mbuna will max out at 6" and only dominat males seem to reach this size with most staying 4-5" in most cases. Just to note this is my opiniion and many have successfully mixed haps with Mbuna in a 4ft tank.

My tank list consist of:
6yellow labs
3 blue cobalts zebras(1m, 2F)
4 redtop zebra (1m-topdog, 3F)
1BN
1Syno
I also have 2 aulonacara(peacocks) species (1OB and 1 stugrati)
Yes I know the peacocks are haps but I got them before I really understood a MBuna setup and have been looking to trade them in. I also made the mistake of mixing the two zebra species which could mate and create hybrids but I will leave them as is.

I will say though that a benefit of mixing haps and Mbuna is that while the Mbuna may hide, the haps always stay in the open. Thus there will always be a fish in view, While that might not always be the case in a strictly Mbuna tank.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Thank you Calilasseia, for all the info! I had to read it over a couple times to be sure I got everything.

I did know that the Peacocks had a different sort of habitat, but I thought I would leave some open swimming room. I read about their different diets and was warned on another site that the Aulonocara are not as aggressive as the Mbuna when it comes to feeding time, so I'd have to make sure they got food...and more meaty food at that.

I'm really thinking now that it would be easier to go with just Mbuna. The feeding and setup would be all the same and I wouldn't have to worry about them not getting food.

Jacobfreibergi is really the one I want, and you recommend not mixing them with the Mbuna, so I will change my plans. I really do think it will be easier with just Mbuna. I'm not totally sold on the Iodotropheus sprengerae, but I'll look around at the LFS in my area when I start fish shopping and see what they look like around here. I had originally wanted Red Zebras, but wasn't sold on them either.

If I go with Pseudotropheus socolofi, I will make sure I get the right ones. I'm still not certain on those either. I may get those or Metriaclima callainos. Do you know what the Metriaclima callainos females look like Cali? Are they blue as well? I have to keep in mind what the females look like so I don't have a huge group of fish that look alike.

So, I know I want Cynotilapia afra (Cobue). I am set on them..they are beautiful. I was told they are fiesty little guys, but I'm set on them. I also want the labs, unless I decide to go with Pseudotropheus saulosi which the females are yellow. Then I'd get my blue and yellow. If I go in that direction, I may decide to get either the Red Zebras or the Rusty Cichlids.

There are just too many choices. I'll have to upgrade this tank to something bigger in the future so I can add more Mbuna!

I do plan on using sand Cali. I may use Pool Filter Sand mixed with Black sand (because I like the look of the black and white/tan). I'm thinking about using crushed coral in the filter to raise and buffer pH and then I'll look for Tufa rock. I've heard of it, but never seen it. I will look at landscaping places for it.

Wishga, thanks for listing your stock. I am going to look up the profiles of them.

Wiseives, do you have any problems feeding the Haps? Also, what color are the Cobalt females?

Maybe there is a Haps tank in my future...

*Kristin*

The cobalts male and female are both the same color blue and look very much the same up until adulthood and really only a dominant male will show noticeable differences in color. My cobalts are sub adults and are very hard to tell apart. In fact the only way I know the difference is through their behavior & not by their look. In fact one of the femmes might be a subordinate male as only one of the girls has ever spawned before.

I have my concerns about the diet of my haps, one of the reasons I have been loking to remove them, but there seem to be no visible problems. I feed the tank with a product I recomend called "new life spectrum" http://www.cichlid-food-canada.com/ which is geared towards mbuna and supposedly supplies a balanced enough diet for the haps according to my LFS. I also feed occasional tetra flakes and also another product made by Dianichi that is geared to the mbuna. I have recently thought about starting to feed occasional ghost shrimp but have to make sure its ok for the tank

I will add, that the photos of the rusty's online do not do them justice as they are a much more attractive fish when seen live.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Cynotilapia afra could prove to be a problem fish. Because different sources have different views on the nature of the fish (regrettably).

The Exotic Tropical Fishes supplement supplied with the October 1977 issue (Supplement Page F-250.05) describes Cynotilapia afra as being 'quarrelsome', and also notes that there are some differences between this species and the 'true' Mbuna - the dentition is considerably different, indeed the visible teeth have led to it being called the Dogtooth Cichlid, and it is cited as having been observed in the wild feeding in midwater on planktonic organisms instead of grazing aufwuchs as the majority of 'true' Mbuna do. Additionally, the Supplement page cites that the fish has been observed engaging in shoaling behaviour, which means that either [1] the fish is in the process of evolving toward the 'typical' Mbuna, or [2] is evolving in a different direction altogether.

However, to confound matters, at least one more recent textbook describes Cynotilapia afra as one of the more peaceful Mbuna-type fishes, and actually places it alongside Iodotropheus sprengerae and the Labidochromis species! This is an area of confusion that needs to be cleared up quickly, because you don't want to find yourself with an unexpectedly belligerent ruffian on your hands when you wanted something a little less troublesome!

Additionally, there are different colour morphs of Cynotilapia afra in circulation. The 'Eduardi' moprh is featured in the Supplement page before me, and differs from the holotype fish in having a bright yellow border to the dorsal fin, with the black main area of the fin further broken up by oblique yellow lines. This is a fish of distinction, and worth seeking out if you are set upon this species.

Some sites covering this species include:

Greater Chicago Cichlid association Page

African-cichlid.com Page

Cichlid Lovers' Photo Page

Mongabay page (Note that this page claims its aggression is mostly directed toward other members of its own species, and thus opens the possibility that it will be much less belligerent toward dissimilar-looking fishes)

American Cichlid Association Recognised Varieties (scroll down the huge list until you hit Cynotilapia)

Cichlid Forum Species Page]http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1675[/link] (one of several covering a host of colour varieties of this fish - the list is [link=here - and this is another source that claims that the species is only 'mildly aggressive')

Cichlid Forum "Cobue" Page

An Aquarist's Experiences With The "Mbweca" Morph

This should be enough research material to cover the subject fairly thoroughly.



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I have some reading to do tonight! Thanks again Calilasseia. I have heard both, that Cobue is aggressive and that they are only mildly aggressive. They are small, so it makes me think about a really small dog who thinks it is huge, so has a big attitude. I'm not sure that is how these fish are, but thats what it makes me think of. Oh, and I've seen pictures of the teeth...yikes. Don't mess with those guys.

I will check out those sites and maybe try to find someone who has experience with them and see how aggressive they were.

I've also heard not to mix species of the same genus...like Labidochromis species or Pseudotropheus species. Is that correct? I want to know for sure so that I can consider all my options here.

Also, would 4 groups of 4 types (1m/3f) be pushing it? I've heard 12-15 fish are a good range for 4 foot tanks...if I had 4 groups, it would make 16 fish...too much? There are just too many that I want!

*Kristin*

The number of fish is not bad (16), but I wouldn't do more than 3 species in a 4 ft tank. Also the purist mbuna keepers would always say not to mix same genus because of hybridrization(sp?). However it does work, the only thing I would say if you disregard this so called rule is to make sure none of the babies make it out to the public. Thats why I mentioned earlier that I have mixed two different type of zebras but did so b4 I knew anything about these fish. For example if you get the red zebras you should stay away the cobalts according to this rule. The mixing of zebras appears to be the most typical of mistakes made by those new to mbuna. I believe another one of the common mistakes are mixing yellow labs and pearlmutts. I'm sure there are many others, just the ones I know about specifically.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Ok, now I got that straightened out.

I have some possibilities...only 3 types...and no 2 of the same genus.

Either:
Yellow labs
Cynotilapia afra (Cobue)
Red Zebras or Cobalt Zebras or Pseudotropheus socolofi (haven't decided)

or

Cynotilapia afra (Cobue)
Red Zebras
Pseudotropheus saulosi (i get yellow and blue )

Thoughts?

I have a really hard time deciding things myself, as you can tell. I like to have people guide me in the right direction of what will look better.

*Kristin*

I'm still minded to suggest the following as a collection that is likely to cause minimum aggression woes for you:

Yellow Labs (1M, 5F)
Iodotropheus sprengerae (1M, 3F)
Pseudotropheus socolofi (1M, 3F)

That's 14 fishes in the aquarium, and none of them likely to cut up rough in the space you have available.

If you're still not enchanted by Iodotropheus sprengerae, take a look at this page and see what a male in breeding hue looks like - you could change your mind!

If you substitute the Cyynotilapia afra for the Pseudotropheus socolofi, then things could get interesting if the latter fishes decide to be fractious, but it's a mixture that could work well.

I would avoid the Red Zebras for the time being, because if this is a colour morph of Metriaclima zebra, then that fish can be bad tempered.

Another fish to look out for if you're looking for something that would provide a difference in body shape, is Pseudotropheus minutus. This is a nice, reasonably well behaved Mbuna, that has an elongate body. However, take care selecting this fish, because there is a second, lookalike species (as if the correlation between socolofi and lucerna wasn't bad enough!), namely Pseudotropheus elongatus, which is a fish you should AVOID AT ALL COSTS until you've gained a LOT of experience with bad tempered fishes, because elongatus is basically a rabid berserker that goes into "search and destroy" mode at the slightest provocation, and is described in at least one source as having "a lurid reputation as an aquarium terrorist" ...

Here is the nice, peaceful Pseudotropheus minutus for you to look at ...

... and here is Pseudotropheus elongatus, the Mbuna From Hell ...

Do NOT get these two mixed up or disaster will ensue!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I have heard of Red Zebras being aggressive, so I think I'll go with Iodotropheus sprengerae, assuming I'll be able to find them. I just can't give up my Cynotilapia afra (Cobue), Calilasseia. I will add them to the tank last though, since they are the most aggressive.

I don't have a great selection of cichlids in my area and I can't afford to buy them all online, so I'm hoping I can get the Rusty Cichlids local. I'll just have to go shopping for them. There are several sellers on Aquabid (like Ebay, but fish related) who have the Afras, and they aren't out of my price range, so I'm not worried about finding those. The yellow labs are sold locally.

I did some figuring and decided that I'll have to choose between this 55g tank and 38g on which one to set up now. I will be starting nursing school in a couple weeks and won't work as much as I do now, so funds will be limited. I have chosen this tank though and will start buying supplies for it this week. Hopefully I'll be able to set it up in a few weeks...maybe a month at most, which is sooner than I expected. The 38g planted tank will have to wait!

I have a question about lighting. I had planned to buy a 2x55w compact fluorescent fixture. I have thought about it and I don't think I'll need that much light, especially if I'm not even sure the plants I want to put in the tank will stay there. I am looking for a lower watt fixture, but want atleast 1wpg, since I'll be trying the corkscrew vals. Does anyone have any suggestions? Would I have a problem with algae with around 1.5wpg and a few anubias, java ferns, and corkscrew vals? What about if the plants don't make it and I have none...would algae be a problem?

Crusha I know you have a 4ft tank. What type of lighting do you have? Are you going to try any plants?

*Kristin*

Red zebras like any other zebras can be quite aggressive, & I have heard that they very well might be the most aggressive of them despite being the smallest of the genus. However with that said, If you are going to get the Cobue, you might as well get the Red zebras. If this is the case you can still get the Labs and bump their numbers to 6 or keep looking for a different species that might work with them. As far as the rusties go I understand that they are even less aggressive than the labs so I would not do the rusty's unless I was mixing them w/ labs and possibly cobalt zebras.

I understand your dilemma as there are so many great Mbuna to choose from, I still have to resist tempations of adding fish to my tank.

I cant help you with lighting as I have what is probably typical of the average tank. I wouldnt worry too much about algae as the Mbuna are pretty proficient algae eaters in themselves & keep the rocks pretty clean. As you know I also have a BN in there but he mostly keeps the class clean.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher