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What about Pseudotropheus saulosi? Are they more aggressive than labs or the same? I thought about replacing the labs with them to get both yellow (females) and blue colors. I could replace them if they would be able to hold up to the Cobue and Red Zebras better.
I could always bump up the number of yellow labs though, if that will help. I know having more Mbuna is usually better, I just don't want to have too many. I will have a cannister filter since they are messy...I know that doesn't help overcrowding though.

I've decided to get the 80 watt light fixture. It will grow the plants I want and will probably generate some algae growth as well, which now I know won't be so bad. More treats for my Mbuna!

*Kristin*

I personally like the idea of using saulosi to get two colors. That way you can have three species and still get 4 different colors in your tank. Cant really speak from experiece though but sounds like your heading in the right direction. Here's a link to some recomended recipe's:http://www.malawimayhem.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2659 hopefully it'll help you make a final decision.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Hiya, I have lighting on the 4ft, I've just kept the reflector that was originally on there for the community fish that I have since removed.

It is a heto double reflector - 1 x 40 watt, 10,000k tube and 1 x 36 watt 6,500k tube.

At this point I like the way it looks without plants, the 10,000k lighting makes the rocks and sand "glow" (the photo in my photobooth thread has the 10,000k on), however this may make the colours of the fish looked washed out??? The 6,500 makes everything look more greenish but only very slightly. With both of them on I think there is just too much light. I'll have to wait and see what "k" rating makes the fish look best.

Maybe i'll try some anubias attached to the rocks but as I said I like the look of no plants. Its a real contrast to my planted 6ft and as both tanks are visible in the same part of the house I think the difference in them is far more interesting.

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Those who say they cant, Never will !!!

I've just found an interesting site while browsing for an entirely different fish from the ones on the "wish list" above.

This page, which features a fish called Petrotilapia tridentiger, contains the following sentence at the bottom of the page:

Note: Petrotilapia tridentiger should not be confused with the quite different Mbuna Iodotropheus sprengerae, which was widely sold under that name when first imported to America in the late 1960s and early '70s.

I really hope that that mistake was never made, because the two fishes are POLES apart behaviour wise! Iodotropheus sprengerae is a nice, small fish that gnerally behaves well even in relatively small Mbuna setups, while Petrotilapia tridentiger is another of those fishes that I would characterise as 'The Mbuna From Hell' - not least because it's amongst the largest of all Mbuna, and defends a LARGE territory in the wild. This makes it one of the most difficult Mbuna to integrate with others in all but a very large aquarium, because it will replicate that behaviour in its aquarium and set about exterminating intruders with frightening zeal. The ONLY reason I can think of that this fish was ever confused with the Rusty Cichlid is because the males become a lovely shimmering purple when in breeding dress, they really are something glorious to behold, but unless you can put them in a huge setup with other fully paid up 'bad boys', they'll cause hair-tearing episodes for the unprepared aquarist. Petrotilapia tridentiger is a fish I saw in action a few years back when the leading light of my local aquarist society was still alive - he had this fish in a sutiably colossal set up, and if you waved your fingers in front of the glass, it went for them ... I was told never to leave it to chance as to whether it would take a chunk out of my hand during aquarium maintenace, and use a divider to keep it at arm's length, because an adult male is a truly scary fish to witness in action if it DOES decide to help itself to a piece of an aquarist's hand ...

Hopefully any decent stockist will have these fishes WELL differentiated. In any case, you'll probably be able to tell the difference on sight - the Iodotropheus sprengerae will be nice and well behaved, while even juvenile Petrotilapia tridentiger in a dealer aquarium will be at each other's throats on a continual basis unless they've been sedated ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

where u at with this girlygirl? any updates, have you started to set up, purchase or prepare yet? Just wanted to know as I wanna see a pic when you start. It'll be cool if you start a log as I really haven't seen a mbuna log yet. well whatever you decide just keep us posted.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

I am slowly getting the things I need. I already bought a NO double fluorescent fixture and glass top. I'm ordering a Rena XP3 and inline heater this week.

I went browsing today at the pet stores in the area today to see what was available locally. Believe it or not PetSmart had the best looking Yellow labs. There are a couple small fish stores nearby that I didn't go to, so I will look there before buying. I had my fav LPS order me some Eco Complete Cichlid sand, so I'll see if the get the right stuff in...lol. I plan on mixing 2 bags of that with 1 bag of Tahition Moon sand, because I want it to be as dark as I can get it. I like the salt and pepper look....just want more pepper in it.

I still have to get some eggcrate and round up some rocks. I am going to try to find a landscaping place to see what kind of rocks I can get. I was going to use slate, but now I think they will be too thin...I'd need a lot of it. I'm going to look for some Tufa rock that Calilasseia recommended.

So I'm looking at a few more weeks until I can get it up and running.

I have decided not to get the loaches...I am going to do all Mbuna. The stock right now looks like Yellow labs, Afra "Cobue" and Red Zebras. Someone told me that they kept Rusty Cichlids and they tried to kill everything in the tank. They said the rusties even went after fish bigger than them. I know Red Zebras can be pretty aggressive too, but I haven't heard of them killing everything. And I know someone who may have some juveniles soon.

I will definitely update as things get moving. And being the picture freak I am...there will definitely be pictures when I set it up!

*Kristin*

Just a quick update:

I got my Eco Complete Cichlid sand this weekend. I collected some rocks yesterday. I'm going with slate, since its free and I'm going to start playing with it to get the rock pile that I want. I'm also going to make sure that there are no sharp edges.

I have 8+ Yellow labs coming my way Friday. I will get the tank setup sometime before then...most likely Thursday night. My school schedule is really busy this week, so I'm short on time.

Pictures will come.../:'

*Kristin*

Slate could prove to be a somewhat awkward material to work with. I'm thinking here in terms of arranging the material in such a manner as to create a surfeit of caves for the fishes.

Your problems here fall into the following assorted categories:

[1] Working the material. Slate is a fairly hard material, and turning big pieces into smaller, manageable pieces could prove to be interesting. Of course, if you already HAVE convenient sized pieces, this ceases to be a major issue, but just in case you find yourself with a big slab to break up ... worth finding someone who's handy at DIY and knows how to use a cutting grinder.

[2] Density. Slate has a relative density of 2.8 (i.e., 2.8 times denser than fresh water). This means that it's a fairly heavy material. Enough slate to create nice rockwork grottoes could push up the weight of the tank significantly. A lump that occupies 1 litre of volume will weigh 2.8 kilos, and by the time you've arranged some decent grottoes, you could be looking at 40 Kg of rock. Be wise to factor this into the floor loading of the 55 before it's up and running and becomes an immovable object.

[3] Arranging stable rockwork. Your BIG worry here will be the possibility of the Cichlids digging under the rocks. Some of them may choose to do this. So, to make sure that they don't create a catastrophic rockfall (either crushing the fishes or causing a real disaster as the rockwork falls through the front glass!) some means of stabilising the rockwork is needed. You could run with several options here. One is to glue the pieces into place using silicone adhesive. However, this approach needs to be done with caution in order to prevent you from having some seriously inconvenient rock masses to remove should a rearrangement of the rocks be needed for some reason (or you need to tear the rockwork apart to get at a particularly troublesome fish that needs isolating in a hospital tank, for example).

One way in which you could mitigate this is to use Lego. Or one of the equivalent plastic construction brick type toys (there's an alternative here in the UK called Mega Bloks). Using this scheme, you could create self-supporting slate pieces that can be arranged in a multiplicity of ways, and which can be stacked in a stable manner too. The beauty of this idea is that once you've glued some Lego supports to your slate pieces, the lowermost pieces can have their Lego supports buried in the sand, resting on the aquarium base, and the relatively soft plastic will place fewer stresses on the glass bottom than direct contact with the slate. Indeed, you can go further and spread the load by attaching the whole lot to flat Lego baseplates to spread the load even more. Take a peek here for the basic bricks - 2x2s, 2x4s and plates are the ones that will probably be of most use here. If you can get hold of 6x8 plates or larger (the kind that kits use for aeroplane wings) then these will add stability to the final structure. Oh, and if you can get them in grey or black, so much the better.

Don't worry about the bricks being aquarium safe - they have to be safe for children to put in their mouths and suck, and given how strict European regulations are in this regard today, you can be certain that Lego bricks won't poison your fishes!

Apply this idea to your rockwork, and you can create a rockwork assembly that will be robust enough to resist being dismantled by your fishes, yet which will be easy for you to disassemble if needed.

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

slate is a hard rock to build caves and hiding spaces with. I hope you can get some good pieces to work with. You can also consider finding some river or lake rocks which are just as easy, if not easier to find & also free. Either way you will have to clean them, just a suggestion. I'm sure whatever you decide you can make it work.

Sidenote: I see you have decided to go with the red zebras over the Rusty's, however I would defer from your belief that red zebras have never killed another fish. This is untrue & by the opinions of most the rusty's are the least aggressive of all the Mbuna, including yellow labs. You must also consider that the cobue's are a fairly aggressive fish & would be a greater danger to killing another fish than any of the other 2 species you intend to keep. I do like that you have decided on the red Zebras over the rusty's and they will actually do better with the cobue IMO

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Well I finally have the tank setup! I will get pictures tomorrow because I got my Yellow labs this morning and they are still settling in.

I did use slate and got a nice pile going with room for the fish to hide. My rocks are mostly smaller pieces. I have some plastic eggcrate under the sand to help stablize the rocks. If the fish start digging, I may have to rearrange. I'm paranoid about it falling, but I think I've got it pretty stable. I looked around and couldn't find rocks that I could buy by the pound. And the slate was free.

I am the queen of changing my mind. I am now thinking about the Rusty's. I know the Cobue will be aggressive and I'm toying with the idea of adding a 4th group to the stocking. I would add some P. socolofi albinos, which should have about the same temperament as the Cobue. Who knows...I may end up getting Red Zebras, if I can't find Rusties. It will be a surprise to everyone what I end up with. (including myself)

I plan on having more labs than anything...since they are possibly the least aggressive (have heard differing info on the Rustys). I have 9 in the tank now, but when they grow some and become more sexable, I will bring the group down to 6. All other fish will be in groups of 4.

If I go with 4 groups, I definitely plan to upgrade the tank in a couple years to possibly a 125g.

*Kristin*

Pictures!

I'll put a few on here and then put some in the Photo Booth:

the rock pile-right side

peeking out


I have a few more of the fish, but I'll save them for the Photo Booth! I just wanted you all to see the pictures too, since you have been so helpful!

*Kristin*

Oh yay, its looking really good, i'm sure you'll be happy with which ever fish you decide on. I'm going to check out your pics in photo booth now.

Congratulations it looks great!

Cheers - Crusha

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Those who say they cant, Never will !!!

looks pretty good. What kind of plants do you have? What, if anything, have you done to raise the PH? These fish can survive in lower PH's but will show their true behavior in the proper one. How long did it take you to stack all that rock? Be prepared to take a lot of time during tank clenings. Also I wouldn't be concerned with the stability of the rocks for the time being but as your fish get larger you're gonna need larger caves & most likely heavier pcs. I do like the substrate alot. Small Mbuna are usually skidish so don't worry about that part. What have you decided to feed them? I recomend "New Life Spectrum" who have a product specifically for Mbuna made. It is available on many sites if you cant find it in your LFS. There are also a number of other option just be certainthat it is mostly spirunela(sp?) based, although the yellows can handle more protein (meaty foods) than other MBuna.

Welcome to the world of Mbuna, you will love these fish.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Thanks crusha!

Wow...lots of questions Wiselves

What kind of plants do you have?

Corkscrew vallisneria...if they get eaten, I won't be sad.

What, if anything, have you done to raise the PH

The substrate is Eco-Complete Cichlid sand...its supposed to raise the pH. I'm guessing it raises it slowly though because the pH is still 7.6. (out of tap pH after 24 hours is only 7.4) If it doesn't go up any more, I'll add a little bit of crushed coral to the filter (just a little, so it doesn't raise it too quickly).

How long did it take you to stack all that rock?

About 45 mins.

but as your fish get larger you're gonna need larger caves & most likely heavier pcs

I am very aware of that. None of my tanks stay the same way for long, so I will move things around before the fish get too large. Also, I will most likely have to redo the rocks when the fish start digging around them. The bottom most rocks are stable, but the top ones move slightly when bumped. The don't move enough to fall, but if a 4-5 inch fish bumped them, they might shift a bit.

What have you decided to feed them?

I have New Life Spectrum, OSI cichlid flakes, and veggies. I will use all 3, but will use the NLS the most.

Welcome to the world of Mbuna, you will love these fish.

Thanks! I already love them. I sit near the tank and watch them peek out of the rocks. Last night all 9 of them came out to the open for a few mins. Then they hurried back in. Cute!

*Kristin*

nice, way to do your homework and see you have thought of possible future adjustments.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

Thanks. I did tons of research before setting it up...and not just on this site. There were things I asked about other places and not on here, so it did seem that I left some things out when planning (like food...) but I actually didn't.

I also plan to upgrade this tank in the next couple years too. I plan on adding 3 more groups of fish now, but will probably get atleast a 75g...maybe even a 125g in a couple years when I graduate college....so the tank will change a few times by then most likely.

Thanks for all your help and I will update as I add more fish and change things. Hopefully the thread won't get buried before then.

*Kristin*