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2.5 gallon tank? Very hard to keep water quality up on a 2.5.

YOu really need at least a 5 gallon, and preferrably a 10. It has to have a seeded sponge filter running. Fry can't handle any kind of power filter and filtration is a must. If you get one, buy some biospira and put it in. Also, take any filter media you have in your main tank, and squeeze and rub some of the slimey stuff onto it. That is good bacteria. If you use the sponge to wipe the inside of your filter out too, it will collect some.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/NavResults.cfm?N=2004&Np=1&Ntt=azoo%20sponge%20filters&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&Nty=1

Sponge filters themselves also grow microscopic life and the fry can feed off of it.

I like this style because the sponge can't crush a fry. I use to use dirt magnets - a style that lays on the bottom, but almost crushed some fry.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3936&Ntt=azoo%20sponge%20filters&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1

You know, your goldfish will continue breeding for a few weeks. Mine did for probably a month nearly daily. Why not setup a sponge filter in your main tank to seed a couple weeks, get a ten gallon, get a microworm culture online to feed the fry, along with Hikari First Bites, and you'll be all set.

Microworms are good for fry too small to eat baby brine shrimp (bbs) and are real easy to keep fresh colonies going with little work. Instructions are included. If you can cook a little oatmeal, you can raise microworms.

http://www.livefoodcultures.com/microworms.html

Talking from experience, raising fry takes planning and actions in the weeks leading up to the point of placing eggs into a tank.

But, it won't hurt to try . Read and learn all you can because raising a fry from a larval stage to an adult is almost a miraculous transformtion to watch. It is also alot of hard work and dedication. It took a long time to vac the uneaten food off the glass bottom with a straw connected to an airline. It removed very little water while cleaning reasonably well. I sometimes did that twice a day, then carefully trickling in water very slowly that was identical temp - sometimes over a period of 15 minutes.

Nothing is more important than water quality, early on, followed by nutrition. Deformaties come from lack of proper nutrition in the earliest of days when they are going from two eyeballs and a tail (larval stage) to a fully formed fish. Food must be nutritious and fresh. Hikari First Bites is highly nutritious and is a fortified ground powder that is meant specifically for very young fry. It has additives that regular fish food does not.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Mar-2005 22:10

Here is the update on my fry -

I still have all six of them!!! I'm so excited!!

I noticed a bit ago that they are not eating the microworms or the powered flakes - meaning that they get it in their mouth and spit it back out. The hatched on the 22nd and by the end of the 23rd they no longer had a "yolk" of any kind. I have also noticed with the little guys that comparing them to the other info sites and pictures they are bigger then they should be.

First off the eggs were laid on Sunday (I watched this happen) and they hatched Tuesday, most of the sites I have seen (thanks to Cory_Di!) it was supose to take six days to hatch. This particular site http://hometown.aol.com/_ht_a/kmam1/MyPond/InformationonFry.html shows a fry after 5 days as an egg and 4 days as a fry - my fry are even more developed then this picture shows. I don't know how long they are normally to stay vertical, but mine only did for one day.

I wish I had the means to take pictures of them for you all to see. Am I going to end up with monsterous/superhero-ish goldfish!

Anyway, I don't know why they wont take the food and I am worried that they will starve to death, they seem to be picking at the plastic plants and sides of the tank though, so maybe they are eating "things" that I just can't see. They are very active too all day long and even right now (1am).

Last edited by $horty at 25-Mar-2005 01:26

- Never shut off a UGF for any length of time if it is to be used again. Like fish, the good bacteria (aerobic) require oxygen. When you cut the power to the UGF, it takes very little time for all of that bacteria to consume what remains of the oxygen under the plate. Then, bacteria that thrives in places where oxygen is void begins to build (anaerobic). Anaerobic bacteria will cause all kinds of illnesses when the pump is turned back on and it spews out into the water column.

How long is too much for it to be off? I've not seen any articles reflecting studies. There are intereseting points to know about UGF's. I'm using them for the first time out of convenience for betta tanks. Betta fins easily get caught in the intakes of even smaller power filters.

Here are some really interesting aquarium articles. Bookmark it for further reference. Read through the articles involving UGF's and just be aware. I don't agree with everything written at that site, especially with regards to bowls

http://www.bestfish.com/articles.html

Them going to the gravel could be normal. Not sure because I missed the first several days after mine hatched . However, most freshly hatched fish will have an eggsac that feeds them a few days. AT some point, you should see them hanging vertically near the top. It is my understanding that fish must get gulps of air from the surface to fill the swim bladder. Many breeders will make the tank shallow the first few days.

I don't know if I provided this one. Read about depth of water.

http://hometown.aol.com/_ht_a/kmam1/MyPond/InformationonFry.html


Here's an even better one:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4468/breeding2.html


Last edited by Cory_Di at 22-Mar-2005 22:18

Thanks so much for all the info!

The tank does have the UGF and gravel on the bottom, however, only a couple inches. I will add more water to slow down the current. Right now it has been off. I was afraid of them getting sucked down into the rock (the really cheap small kind). Anyway, I noticed with my molly fry that they had a hard time with the current at times so I turned it down as much as I could. I am still just a bit afraid of using the UGF at this point due to their size. Do you think it would be okay to not have the filtration going for the next 2 days, to give them some time to grow a bit and get stronger with their swimming?

At this point they swim for maybe 8 seconds, and then they just sink to the bottom for exhaustion.

Also, it was not cycled as I left it empty after taking my molly fry out of it 3 weeks ago. So it was just rinsed real good and then filled entirely from the tank I pulled them from.

Just for the heck of it, here's a shot of one of the fry when I first found it in a bucket.

If I were you, I'd go to the fish store and get some hornwort, unless you have some in another tank. If you don't want snails taking over the tank, soak the hornwort in 1 gallon of water and a Tbsp of kitchen alum (spice aisle of grocery store). This will kill snails and snail eggs. Soak it overnight in conditioned water. Hydra are a concern with fry and they can come into the tank with live plants, as can bacteria. I typically also soak the plant for 10 minutes in 1 gallon of water and a dose of Jungle's Clear Water. It is meant as a clarifier, but is Potassium Permangenate. This kills bacteria and some parasites. I put just enough in the water to make it a deep purple. Just don't use conditioner too close to when you put it in the bucket. Let the water sit for 30 minutes after you add conditioner, before adding the Clear Water. If it stays purple its good. If it turns brown, start over. Just 10 minutes is all you need.

The plant will create microscopic life that the fry can snack on. They will also snack on algae. I let the algae grow, unless it is the blue-green cyano, which is toxic.

They won't need to eat until they are no longer hanging vertical. They do need to be fed minimally 3x daily and if possible as much as every 3-4 hours. The more you feed the faster they grow and getting big fast is important (more likely to survive). I can't recommend Hikari First Bites enough - it is aimed at fry and mine grew fast on it and was intact, except for the genetic deformaty of the mouth.



Cory_Di attached this image:


Last edited by Cory_Di at 22-Mar-2005 16:41[/font]

Darn, pic didn't work

Hopefully, this does it.



Cory_Di attached this image:

I don't know how such a filter would work with the fry. Let me say that I don't know how the suction into the gravel would work and that is less of a concern. If it is the same, I would be more concerned with the outflow. In my betta tank, it is quite strong. If it is the same model and similar, I would use a weaker pump that provides less turbulence. This is why so many people use sponge filters is that there is virtually no turbulence. These larvae are weak and won't be able to fight any current. In fact, if you lower the water level so that the outflow is above the water line, you would probably drastically lower the current in the water. It will trickle in. You should be able to skip the sponge filter. But in the future, think 10 gallon and a sponge filter that is pre-seeded, and a live clump of java moss. Java Moss makes a great spawning medium and allows the fry to hide and eat microscopic life off of it.

Also, bare bottom tanks are usually the best. You can try it and see what happens.
If it is a UGF, I take it that it is cycled and recently had fish? If so, then you should have no problem with ammonia and nitrite.

Keeping it clean without using a siphon is a challenge. YOu almost have to use a gravel tube, rather than the setup I had. It was not connected to an airpump. It was a gravel vac made with a flexible straw stuck into some airline. I put the flexible end down and used it to slowly siphon gunk off the bottom of the glass. I started the siphon as I do with gravel vacs - I sucked on the end (with my hand cupped, of course .

The challenge you have is that if you don't use a gravel tube with gravel in the tank, is that it will pollute. The straw was too delicate.

Here's my fry tank gravel vac



Cory_Di attached this image:


Last edited by Cory_Di at 22-Mar-2005 16:42[/font]

Last edited by Cory_Di at 22-Mar-2005 16:44

Well, congratulations!

You have a UGF for a 2.5 gallon? OH, wait is that like this:



Cory_Di attached this image:

Cory_di >

Here's some reading: http://www.goldfishparadise.com/viewArticle.php?articleId=17

On this site they mention yeast tablets. Is this the same kind of yeast to make bread? I have that kind in granules.

BTW - some of them have hatched. I thought I only had 3 good eggs, but so far I have 2 un-hatched (still moving in their eggs) and have seen 4 swimming around. I have decided (of course) to keep them. I don't know how this will work out in the end but they are soooo cute!

Also, this tank that I am using has an under gravel filter. I don't have the air stone hooked up as I am afraid it will suck the little guys through the rocks and kill them. Can I still use the air stone (not in the tube though) to circulate the water and provide more oxygen? Or will this stress the fry too much?

Lastly, can you explain a little more about the straw and air line thing you did? I have a Hawkeye 201 air pump that came with this 2.5 gal tank would that work?

Thanks for all your help: D
ll your help

Last edited by $horty at 22-Mar-2005 13:52

I have the microworms so thats good. Unfortunately we were not planning this and as of now through the end of April, I have no extra moneies to spend on another 5 or 10gal tank . We are trying to buy a house and there is alot of expense stuff that we have to take care of.

As for the 2.5 gal tank. This is the tank I used to raise my molly fry. It takes alot of work (changing the water daily but only a little so as not to stress the fry and also to keep the water clean).

And as for the "slimy" part of the bio filter - How long do you let that grow there? Mine, even after 8 weeks was stinking really bad, so I rinsed all the slime off (I'm thinking that was a mistake now).

My goldfish is laying eggs, kinda. She (I thought it was a male fish) is swimming around and "dropping" eggs everywhere. This fish is the one that has been chasing the other fish and this is why I thought it was a male fish. Also the one laying the eggs is a common goldfish and the other one is a fancy veil tail goldfish.

My question is this: Since this "egg laying" is happening everywhere and not in just one spot, what are the chances that they will become fertile? Are the eggs fertilized before or after the laying process? We are not exactly excited about having a bunch of little goldfish, so we are not concerned about making sure they hatch. They are also eating some of the eggs so that is good as there will be less hatching, hopefully.

Wow, thanks! Those are some great sites! I wish I had known the "rope" trick earlier. For now I think I'll move the plastic plant to my 2.5 gal tank.

Well, they are at risk with mom and dad in there eating them. Let's suppose you leave them in the tank until they become freeswimming fry. How then, will you remove larval fish that are a mere 4-5mm at the most?

It is not uncommon to use things like spawning mops or java moss, then to pull it out after they are laid. Or, even better, to put the parents into a tank temporarily until the eggs come, then remove them.

Here's some reading:

[link=http://www.goldfishparadise.com/viewArticle.php?articleId=17]http://www.goldfishparadise.com/viewArticle.php?articleId=17" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

[link=http://www.aquariumfish.net/catalog_pages/goldfish_and_koi/breeding_goldfish.htm]http://www.aquariumfish.net/catalog_pages/goldfish_and_koi/breeding_goldfish.htm" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

This one has picture of the spawning mop

[link=http://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfish/info/breeding-fs.htm]http://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfish/info/breeding-fs.htm" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

[link=http://www.goldfishinfo.com/spawn.htm]http://www.goldfishinfo.com/spawn.htm" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

These are the kinds of sites I referenced when I found myself to be caregiver to some bucket fry . I took out some hornwort to clean the tank and had it in a bucket of tank water. About 4-5 days later, my nephew spotted movement in the bucket and I knew right away that there must have been fry. Sure enough. I raised one to 5 months. All had died off one by one due to a genetic malformation of the mouth the mother had. I didn't realize she was deformed until after I brought her home, never intended to breed her so I felt she could have a home in my tank despite difficult feeding. Unfortunately, all 5 fry had the condition. I thought once Jr. got to 5 months, he was ok, but it got harder for him to eat.

If you just want to experiment, taking something out, covered in a few eggs is a good way to go. Otherwise, you get into heavy culling that needs to be done and huge growout tanks.

Wont I damage the eggs if I try to move them right now? They are buried somewhat in the plastic plant that is in the tank.

I would remove them immediately if you want to keep them. If you see black dots, then they are forming into fry. Be forwarned that as baby goldfish age, they need big growout tanks. I found it exciting to have a small number in a 10 gallon. You'd need a sponge filter and it is best to have a bare tank.

Daily water changes are necessary, but not in the first couple of days. In fact, feeding is not necessary until a few days later. Live plants in the 10 gallon provide microscopic food in the early days. Then, foods like HIkari First Bite are ideal. I literally used a straw connected to an airline as a vac. I refilled the tank very gently with only cupfuls at a time. Fry can be easily shocked by water changes in the first few weeks.

Well I am seeing little brown dots; I assume these are the eyes? Some of the eggs though I can't quite tell if they are turning white or not. It has been roughly 24 hours since the eggs where laid. Is this a normal time span for the eggs to be identified as fertilized or not? Is it okay to wait a bit longer to make sure the others are fertilized before removing them?

Males have tubercles on the gill plates when in breeding condition. It looks like pimples. They disappear after breeding season.

Click this link and look at top of page down see tubercle pic

Goldfish mating is quite aggressive with the female being pummeled to the point of pure exhaustion.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 20-Mar-2005 18:18

I am very confused right now as to whether the other fish is a male. I thought I was positive on the sex of both. However, I thought the fish laying the eggs was a male and the other a female due to the one laying the eggs has always chased the other one around. This is still the case but the one doing the chasing is the one doing the laying (I saw the eggs come out so I am positive on this). The kids are confused now too cuz they names the one laying the eggs Jacob like 9 months ago.

So, I don't know if the other is male or not. My husband is upset about this though.

We never intended to have fry, our molly fish had 6 fry 2 months ago and now the goldfish are laying eggs. We are not really prepared for this, so I will let nature take it's course and if any are fetilized and survive, great, if not that's fine too.

Is there a male in the tank? If there is a male and she has eggs, she will emit a hormone to attract the male who will ram her and nudge her into anything and everything for hours every morning. Then, if he's like most, he'll snack on the eggs as they pop out. In the process a few may get fertilized. Don't be surprised if you see white poop at this time because when they eat the eggs that's how it looks

They will also eat any fry that would hatch, unless there are hidey places and microscopic nutrition. More than likely none will survive between parents and pump.

If it lays eggs, then they will be fertilized after they are layed.