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That's all, folks. This thread is going nowhere fast.

Last edited by sirbooks at 18-Aug-2005 15:20

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

How is it fine, then? What makes it okay for your goldfish?

A Google search turned up this: http://www.rodnreel.com/UploadPics/Modified/2005/P0052482.jpg
The site claims that this is a goldfish. Pretty big, huh? (If you don't like blood, don't click the link.)
This is why I don't think a goldfish should live in a ten gallon tank, because fish should get to live to their potential size.

Last edited by sirbooks at 18-Aug-2005 11:24

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

"About that pic you posted, what the heck are you doing holding a fish out of water like that? Is that fish alive? It damages their gills to be handled by human hands and suffocates them to be out of water!"

Well being in a 10 gallon stops their skeleton from growing and kills them slowly. I think you should be more worried about your goldie then that one. IIRC "Bruce" is kept in a pond....you know like carp should.

I willl tell you how long my goldfish lives, if you are still on these forums. When it dies I will tell you, ok? And when it suddenly grows to the size of a shark I will tell you And my goldfish IS healthy, no matter how much you think you know about MY fish that you have never even seen. The fish DOES eat, and looks every bit like a healthy fish, I have kept her in a 10 gallon for a few months now and she has ALWAYS been healty. And she swims normal, there is nothing wrong with her whatsoever.

A few months is nothing for a fish that lives as long as 20 years. Chances are stunting wont happen with a few months. However if your fish is in there for its whole life, dont expect it to grow normally. Also, stunting will have a negetive impact on the immune system, so your goldies who died of a sickness were most likely more susceptible due to improper housing.

"deschazkody, I agree with you, but after I gave my reply to this persons thread everyone aparently choose to ignore the person who posted this thread and attack me instead."

No one attacked you until you got belligerent

"And BESIDES I don't have a pond and if I give her to a pet store she they will probably stuff in with all the other goldfish in those 'feeder' tanks much like the one I rescued her from."

Comets are pond fish. Period. Shes better off being fed to an oscar than being kept in a 10 gallon. A quick death is better than a slow one.


Id like to know what you thought of "Bruce" the year-old oranda. Im sure you wouldnt stuff him in your tank, why would you put a comet in there?


Since you are so sure of your goldfish husbandry techniques, can you please explain how you came to the conclusion that putting a fish with the potential to be 2ft long in a 20in long tank would work well?



Last edited by katieb at 17-Aug-2005 21:32

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

"Ok, first of all I did NOT come to this thread for advice. I didn't even post it. And you come here to tell me I need 55 gallons for every fish"

Yes, you did. You told the topic poster a ten gallon tank is sufficient for housing the aforementioned goldfish, which is, of course, untrue.


"And you all say it will stun their growth and cause them pain, but thats not true. I have kept goldfish in a 10g tank before a long time ago, and the only reason they died was because some kind of fungas disease spread through the tank. (i did not know a lot about fish back then)"

It is true. How large was the goldfish when it died? How old was it? A healthy goldfish is capable of goring several inches a year until it hits sexual maturity, whereby growth decreases slightly. I am willing to bet your fish was not over 6", unless you had purchased the fish at around that size. Many aquarists far more knowledgable than you or I have all witnessed stunting in action, and thusly it is a commonly accepted fact in today's hobby. Besides, how can you be sure it is not in pain? Are you a goldfish? I'd also be willing to bet that the fungal infection was triggered by poor water quality, as most infections of that nature are--spurred forth by the massive amounts of respiratory (well, sort of) waste produced by robust cyprinids such as goldfish.


"For a 10g tank, go for a pair of Gold Barbs. I know 10g isnt really suited for them either, But they can live much more happily in a 10g and are a nice shiny golden color as well."
Well, thanks for the piece of advice even though I did not ask for it."

Thank you for being unequivocably rude to someone who was trying to help.


"About that pic you posted, what the heck are you doing holding a fish out of water like that? Is that fish alive? It damages their gills to be handled by human hands and suffocates them to be out of water!"

Gills are protected by the operculum. There is no reason to asume that the gills are harmed in any way; in fact, such handling is the best and least stressful way by which one can restrain a fish out of water. Furthermore, the above fish is still (or so I've heard) alive and well, and as one can see from the photo, VERY healthy. We are all quite intelligent enough to understand that fish cannot breathe out of water, but what other way can you obtain a side shot of a pond dwelling fish?


"I willl tell you how long my goldfish lives, if you are still on these forums. When it dies I will tell you, ok? And when it suddenly grows to the size of a shark I will tell you And my goldfish IS healthy, no matter how much you think you know about MY fish that you have never even seen. The fish DOES eat, and looks every bit like a healthy fish, I have kept her in a 10 gallon for a few months now and she has ALWAYS been healty. And she swims normal, there is nothing wrong with her whatsoever."

I don't need to see your fish. The fact that it's in a ten gallon tank somewhat speaks for itself. Think about it
the fish grows to be at least a foot and a hlaf in length, correct? Correct. There is no way that fish can possibly grow that large in a 10G. Many years of aquarist experience from multiple indivduals as well as microbiological fact dictates that some areas of the fish MUST grow throughout the course of its life, thusly deforming the fish. It will, and I guarentee you, not live over ten years.


"deschazkody, I agree with you, but after I gave my reply to this persons thread everyone aparently choose to ignore the person who posted this thread and attack me instead."

No one is attacking you, at least by my definition of the word. If by "attacking" you mean attempting to convey the fact that a ten gallon is far too small for a 16 inch fish, then yes, we are.


"And BESIDES I don't have a pond and if I give her to a pet store she they will probably stuff in with all the other goldfish in those 'feeder' tanks much like the one I rescued her from."

No offense, but to be perfectly honest, the fish would probably be better off as a meal for a hungry oscar than to be packed in a tank far too small for the extent of it's remaining life.

Actually my goldfish is growing, he doesn't look dead to me.

"I think you should be more worried about your goldie then that one." Says someone who is trying to tell me to feed my goldfish to a hungry oscar.

"A few months is nothing for a fish that lives as long as 20 years. Chances are stunting wont happen with a few months. However if your fish is in there for its whole life, dont expect it to grow normally. Also, stunting will have a negetive impact on the immune system, so your goldies who died of a sickness were most likely more susceptible due to improper housing."
So you are predicting my fish will die soon? I doubt it. We will see who is right, wont we?

"No one attacked you until you got belligerent"
All I said was you can keep a small goldfish in a 10g tank and people threw rude replys at me, everyone telling me that thats wrong and I should put her in a pond or give her to a LFS or feed her to a hungry oscar.

"Id like to know what you thought of "Bruce" the year-old oranda. Im sure you wouldnt stuff him in your tank, why would you put a comet in there?"

Bruce is a pretty oranda. And no, why would I stuff sich a huge fish in a 10g tank? My comet is about the size of a betta.

"Since you are so sure of your goldfish husbandry techniques, can you please explain how you came to the conclusion that putting a fish with the potential to be 2ft long in a 20in long tank would work well?"

Because I have done it before, and I know more about my fish than you do. And he is small, not 2f long!

"Yes, you did. You told the topic poster a ten gallon tank is sufficient for housing the aforementioned goldfish, which is, of course, untrue."

Telling someone that they can keep a small fish a 10g tank is not asking for advice. And it is true.

The goldfish I had before, I don't know how old they were and I don't remember how big they were, but they were not over 6", if they were I woulden't keep them in a 10gt.

"Besides, how can you be sure it is not in pain? Are you a goldfish?"

I have learned how to tell what a healthy fish looks like. And I'm not a goldfish, if I was it would be hard for me to type. And it might not have been a fungal infection. Even in healthy tanks sickness can sometimes happen. You, and every other fish keeper, should know that.

"Thank you for being unequivocably rude to someone who was trying to help."

Who is being rude here? I told him thanks for suggesting it but I'm fine with my goldfish.

"Gills are protected by the operculum."

So its ok to keep fish out of water?

"I don't need to see your fish. The fact that it's in a ten gallon tank somewhat speaks for itself. Think about it
the fish grows to be at least a foot and a hlaf in length, correct? Correct. There is no way that fish can possibly grow that large in a 10G. Many years of aquarist experience from multiple indivduals as well as microbiological fact dictates that some areas of the fish MUST grow throughout the course of its life, thusly deforming the fish. It will, and I guarentee you, not live over ten years."

You need to see my fish. Good. Then don't talk about what you don't know. My goldfish has lots of room, how many times should I tell you people?

"No one is attacking you, at least by my definition of the word. If by "attacking" you mean attempting to convey the fact that a ten gallon is far too small for a 16 inch fish, then yes, we are."

My fish is not 16 inches! Is a 10g tank too small for a 2 inch fish? No.

"No offense, but to be perfectly honest, the fish would probably be better off as a meal for a hungry oscar than to be packed in a tank far too small for the extent of it's remaining life."

Packed in a tank? No I told you she has lots of room and I am not going to feed her to a big hungry fish, thank you.

Ok kelly, you keep saying that the fish is fine in the tank its size, however, you have only had it for a few months. Please explain to us what will happen to the fish when it is 24 inches long and in a 20 inch tank?

And when people say its better off to feed your fish to an oscar they mean a quick death is a better death than the slow painful death where the fish's internal organs grow unnaturally large for its body and the fish dies.

about the other goldfish that died from fungus...
goldfish produce an excessive amount of waste. In a small tank with that much waste water quality will quickly detiriorate which probably was the cause of the fungus.

I'm sorry but if you dont want to hear the answer come onto a fish website and ask the question "What the smallest tank a common goldfish could live in?"

Now please, if you dont have a pond or a large enough tank return the goldfish to a petstore and get something else. There are plenty of fish that are well suited to a 10 gallon.

"So you are predicting my fish will die soon? I doubt it. We will see who is right, wont we?"

I am predicting that your fish will not live as long as it could in a proper environment. And you know as well as I that I will never know when your fish will die, so the proceeding comment is quite unnecessary.


"All I said was you can keep a small goldfish in a 10g tank and people threw rude replys at me, everyone telling me that thats wrong and I should put her in a pond or give her to a LFS or feed her to a hungry oscar."

I don't recall in any previous posts ever being rude, nor did you ever state that the goldfish were required to be small. Thus, we can assume that you have plans to forever house your pets in the given ten gallon of discussion. I do, however, bear in mind that we provided you will highly constructive criticism presented in a consequently constructive way. In fact, most of the posters were flat out nice.


"Bruce is a pretty oranda. And no, why would I stuff sich a huge fish in a 10g tank? My comet is about the size of a betta."

...and it will stay that way (if only a few inches larger), which is why we--or rather I, as I cannot speak for the other posters, cannot stress to you enough that your fish does not belong in a ten.


"Because I have done it before, and I know more about my fish than you do. And he is small, not 2f long!"

Oh, so you HAVE raised goldfish in a ten gallon tank that grew to full size and lived a full 30 years?


"Telling someone that they can keep a small fish a 10g tank is not asking for advice. And it is true."

You, and I quote you on this, said ; "Ok, first of all I did NOT come to this thread for advice. I didn't even post it.". The “it”, by all grammatical rules of parallelism, does point to the subject as “advice”, which is carried over form the previous sentence. Thus, standing alone, it reads; “I didn’t even post advice”---which you did. This is off topic, so I’ll get back to goldfish henceforth.


"The goldfish I had before, I don't know how old they were and I don't remember how big they were, but they were not over 6", if they were I woulden't keep them in a 10gt."

Don’t you see? Your fish never grow beyond 6” because you are inhibiting their growth!

"I have learned how to tell what a healthy fish looks like. And I'm not a goldfish, if I was it would be hard for me to type. And it might not have been a fungal infection. Even in healthy tanks sickness can sometimes happen. You, and every other fish keeper, should know that."

You JUST said it was a fungal infection. Now you're rebuking your words? I don't quite follow. Furthermore, my point was, and I'm sure you knew this but were purposely avoiding the question, that YOU don't very well know if your fish feels pain or not. Also, if it were a healthy tank, there would be no sickness; all known fungal infections are resultant from high stress and/or unsavory water conditions, as they are generally already present in most aquariums, waiting for the immune system to buckle under stress. Healthy fish in a healthy environment simply do not come down with an infection; fungal or otherwise. Please do not question my standing as a hobbyist while you continue to recommend housing goldfish in 10 gallon tanks for the entirety of their lives.


“Who is being rude here? I told him thanks for suggesting it but I'm fine with my goldfish.”

I’m sure you’ll deny this, but I’m fairly sure you knew at the time of your post that the remark comes across as cynical and snide in context. Again, off topic, so I’ll get back to goldfish.

"So its ok to keep fish out of water?"

Please don't attempt to play word games with me; what I recall you saying is that handling a fish with human hands damages it's gills (which is far from true, as the mentioned gill plating protects the delicate rakers). Context and proper English proves me correct. And, as you recall, said oranda is still quite healthy--while your goldfish are either stunted and/or dead as a result of fungal/bacterial infection. Thusly, what right do you have to criticize an obviously more than proficient fishkeeper?

“You need to see my fish. Good. Then don't talk about what you don't know. My goldfish has lots of room, how many times should I tell you people?”

The mere mention that you'd recommend a ten gallon tank conveys the fact that I don’t need to prove to you that I do know EXACTLY what I’m talking about. We are aware that he has lots of room, however, the fish WILL suffer physiological damage and premature death due to your actions.

"My fish is not 16 inches! Is a 10g tank too small for a 2 inch fish? No."

It won't REACH 16 inches. That is EXACTLY what I’m trying to tell you. In fact, it won't even reach half that, precisely because you've limited it's growth.

I am, from this post on, going to cease playing the quote game with you. It’s your fish and your tank, but I should let you know that your fish WILL die as the successive result of stunting (no, it's organs won't explode, as cell density prevents this from occuring, but many of the fish's organs will contort due to neccesary development in those regions, and furthermore, lose function and form sooner than a healthy indivdual).

Sorry, I have to agree with Cup here.
Goldfish dont belong in a 10g tank.
The fact that your fish is several months old
and is still so small is proof of stunting.
Bruce the Oranda in the picture I posted (not my fish),
grew to that size in 1 year. Imagine that after several months he must have been tipping 6-9 inches.
I have seen goldfish grow in the proper environment,
by 1 year of age said fish should be a minimum of 6 inches, and if kept in a pond will probably be closer to a foot.
We base our estimates of what can fit in a 10g tank on Adult Size of the Fish. Not what size it is when you buy it, or what size it is as 3 months of age.
We base it on the total maximum size the fish in question WILL BE when it has matured in an environment conducive to proper growth and health.
Therefore yes, a Guppy fits in a 10g tank, so does a Betta. They are 2 inch fish at maturity (when finished growing), they are not 2 inches at only several months of age destined to be a whopping 20 inch fish.
You need to base your decision not how big the fish is now, but on how big the fish WILL BE if you give it a chance to live its life out and grow normally.
If I kept you as a child in a small box, you probably wouldnt be much bigger than 3 feet either, but that didnt happen to you did it?



Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
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While I'm not offering any comment on tank size for goldfish or saying who is right or wrong...I will say that I do think some people were rather condescending to this person. I think that is why she got upset. She is probably less upset at the advice being given than the tone it was given in. I find this forum is usually very very friendly and I have recieved some very helpful advice which I have always taken and applied. HOwever, I will say that sometimes people are a little aggressive in their "advice giving". No one want so to be made to feel like an idiot or a "fish killer". I know that people are very passionate about their fish and want to make sure that all fish are getting the optimum treatment possible but sometimes the posts come accross a bit aggressively and it puts people on the defensive. Just a little something in the interest of peace!!

"Please explain to us what will happen to the fish when it is 24 inches long and in a 20 inch tank?"

I thought you guys said that they wont grow over 6 inches in a 10 g tank??

"Now please, if you dont have a pond or a large enough tank return the goldfish to a petstore and get something else. There are plenty of fish that are well suited to a 10 gallon."

Now, if I actually give my goldfish to the pet store, what do you honestly think they will do with her? The ONLY tanks with common goldfish I have ever seen in any store are crowded, crowded, and the fish are sick and suffocating and dieing. Do you really think my goldfish would be better off there?

"I'm sorry but if you dont want to hear the answer come onto a fish website and ask the question "What the smallest tank a common goldfish could live in?"

The question was just posted on this thread.

You guys are telling me that my fish won't live in a 10g tank when at right this very moment she IS.








And now....what would you honestly have me do?????????????????????????????????????????????????

What the other folks are saying is that your fish will not live out its full lifespan in that tank. Goldfish have the potential to get very large, and your goldfish will not be able to reach its potential in a ten gallon tank. It would die first.
While it may not be feasible for you to dig a pond or buy a very large tank, the others are trying to make you understand that it is not okay for a goldfish to be kept in a ten gallon. No one who knows about stunting and the true size of goldfish can honestly say that a fish tank like that will hold a goldfish for more than a short time. If you really want to give your goldie a good home, your best bet is a pond. Do you know anyone who has a pond, or is there a pond society or club in your area? Perhaps someone would take your goldfish for you.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Now I'm being told to give my goldfish to someone else. Great. Either that or dig a hole in the backyard as a pond for her where she will be exposed to all kinds of weather extremes.

And no, I don't know anyone with a pond! And my parents wouldent let get anything bigger than a 55g tank! PLUS a 10g tank is JUST FINE.

Last edited by Kelly at 18-Aug-2005 11:14

Last edited by Kelly at 18-Aug-2005 11:15

Your fish is dying, whether you chose to accept that or not. The fish will undergo a ruinous distortion of it’s body, which will compromise it’s health. This is a fact which is supported by years of hobbyist experience AND scientific fact. As it is your tank and your fish, there is no way I can realistically stop you, but let it be known to you that to continue to house your fish in a ten gallon tank will have a direct influence upon it’s health and lifespan. Attempting to argue with that is to question the doctrine of many years of the hobby. Personally, I do not believe you are yet in such a position to do that.

Furthermore, I do not believe that one needs to have HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH HTH in one’s signature to come across as helpful. Nothing posted here, from what I can tell, is the least bit condescending. Facts are presented in a straightforward manner---and they are statements of fact, not arrogance. There is no way for one to sugarcoat such a message—would you rather I speak in such a tone?; “ur lil goldie’ll b sad if ya makem stay n ur 10 gal. He’ll go 2 da big fish bowl in da skI lol. But datz OK, s’long as ur happE wit ur sishies!!” I don’t think it helps the situation much.


Here are the first two sites relevant to stunting that popped in a quick google search. I believe these are better indicators of what should or should not be done in regards to fishkeeping:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A//kingsoftheaquarium.com/faq.htm&ei=DsgEQ6zlCqiEYevT5IcK
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A//www.bestfish.com/tips/020598.html&ei=DsgEQ6zlCqiEYevT5IcK

For size reference, here are some images of wild type goldies:
[link=http://www.ifc.tas.gov.au/fact_sheets/Wild%20goldfish.jpg ]http://www.ifc.tas.gov.au/fact_sheets/Wild%20goldfish.jpg [/link]
[link=http://www.fishing.co.uk/data/articlez/br0202hottips-3-tb.jpg ]http://www.fishing.co.uk/data/articlez/br0202hottips-3-tb.jpg [/link]
[link=http://www.carphunters.com/Foto-arkiv/Fish/Carassius_auratus.htm ]http://www.carphunters.com/Foto-arkiv/Fish/Carassius_auratus.htm [/link]
[link=http://www.seafishingonline.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10029/Carp1.jpg ]http://www.seafishingonline.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10029/Carp1.jpg [/link]
[link=http://www.seafishingonline.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10029/Carp3.jpg ]http://www.seafishingonline.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10029/Carp3.jpg [/link]

And comet complexes:
[link=http://www.kevinwakeman.com/fpics/jun702goldy.jpg ]http://www.kevinwakeman.com/fpics/jun702goldy.jpg [/link]
[link=http://www.goldfishparadise.com/album/album/gotm/comet8.jpg ]http://www.goldfishparadise.com/album/album/gotm/comet8.jpg [/link]
[link=http://www.cconline.org.za/images/pond44.jpg ]http://www.cconline.org.za/images/pond44.jpg [/link]
[link=http://www.pondliner.com/images/07GFCometLg.jpg ]http://www.pondliner.com/images/07GFCometLg.jpg [/link]



Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 18-Aug-2005 13:11

How is it fine? Because my goldfish is not sick and dieing.

What does that cruel pic have to do with my goldfish? Do you support fishing or something?

Look at these sites I found on the web.
http://honors.montana.edu/~weif/firsttank/goldfish.phtml
http://www.finetuning.com/articles/1780-goldfish--beyond-the-bowl.html
"Please, for the health of your new friend, invest a little extra money and purchase, at a minimum, a 10 gallon tank for him or her."
"Keep your goldfish in a tank of at least 10 gallons, and make sure that a minimum of 8 gallons of your tank space is dedicated to each goldfish (a 10 gallon tank is really only suitable for one goldfish). This will provide sufficient space for your goldfish, so he can remain healthy, and this will allow the tank to help you keep healthy fish."

Every book that I have read says you can keep a goldfish in a 10g tank. And allthe tank sets I have seen say that too.

Look at the name and nature of each of your websites. Neither of them are fish related. This just gives credence to the fact that most non-aquarists and even a high percentage of so-called aquarists just don't know how large goldfish get. This is FishProfiles.com, a decidedly fish-oriented site. We have a lot of smart people here. I think that the folks who were trying to help you are included. They know that goldfish are big fish. You've now seen pictures that prove this.
I'm not being a smart-aleck, but do you think a goldfish can grow as big as it should in a twenty inch tank? Then, why do you insist that your goldfish are fine in there, when they clearly will not reach their full potential? Not reaching ones potential... Isn't that something most people dread? Teachers and parents hammer into their kids that you should strive to be your best, to reach your potential in adult life. Fish should get to reach their adult potential. They don't need to be punished with an early grave.

And yes, I am the epitome of evil because I'm not against fishing. That's beside the point.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Why SHOULD she reach her 'full potentiel'? What if she doesn't want to? And why do you care, if you love fishing? Shoulden't you be more worried about killing more innocent fish than worried about how I raise my goldfish?

I, Sirbrooks like you, must also be the epitome of evil, because i'm not against fishing either, i personally am all for it.

one question though Kelly, if your parents won't let you get anything more than a 55g, why don't you buy a 55g along with your 10g, move your goldie into a 55g, and have the 10g as a betta tank?

would that not be a sensible idea?

smilingpiranha

Last edited by smilingpiranha at 18-Aug-2005 12:43

I'm sorry but I totally agree with Kelly here. That picture is really digusting. Why would post that on a site like this? That makes no sense. There are about a million pictures you could have chosen to make the point about fish size. I have to agree with this girl. Maybe you should be more worried about poor fish being slaughtered and strung up with blood pouring from their guts so people can get a good laugh at it than this girl and her one goldfish.] Also you are talking about fish living to their potential and getting to the size they should...why? So people can go slaughter them. Yuck

Last edited by mesonic at 18-Aug-2005 12:44

smilingpiranha, I have a 55 gallon tank that has 2 guppies, 2 albino corys, and a snail and soon I'm going to get more tropical fish for it.

ah, ok, just a suggestion, i didn't know, you had one, sorry

Then switch tanks. Cories and guppies do much better in 10s than goldfish. Even though albinos are a bit big, it's still better. 6 cories and 6 guppies or something of the like would look much better and would definitely stop the critism. You have to understand, no one agrees with you! It's useless to argue because you're the only member on this entire site who thinks that you have a nicely stocked tank. Use some common sense, you're wrong!

There are about a million pictures you could have chosen to make the point about fish size.

I want you to post a picture of a 4 foot goldie. What books is saying is that even 2 feet might not be the maximum size for goldfish. If you don't want to look at bloody pics, then why did you click on it (Books clearly warned you).

Last edited by djtj at 18-Aug-2005 13:09