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I would like to know, so that when i get my 55, i can get some SAEs,

What fish are ideal for the SAE of Fox?(Specifics please)I would like to have:

Some colorful schooling fish

A gourami(I just love em')

A snail

Nice sized, 3-4" non-agressive fish

A nice "exotic" loner (exotic meaning very colorful/Cool feature

And loaches(or not)

*******Can Any of these fish eat plants? **********

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The choice is massive, SAE's are incredibly peaceful, and wont eat any fish apart from fry or very small species with a lengh of perhaps less than 5 mm. They will eat eggs though,often with an almost suicidal vigour, so avoid species that take parental care of the eggs in the midwater or bottom area of the tank, as the SAE's may get attacked. In the case of the blue acara for instance, I had to remove 4 sae's before they got mutilated. Small species like rams though, will be fine with them.

They are quite chunky though, and while most midwater fish wont be annoyed by them they probably will annoy the living hell out of other small scavenger species like cories. Bigger loaches will be fine as long as they dont fin nip, clowns for example are fine with them.More importantly they are hyperfast eaters, and no small scavenger like kuhlis or cories should be forced to compete with them.Most loaches will be plenty fast enough to stay in the game and compete. I wouldnt house ottos with them because an SAE will blow their fragile little minds !

I know from experience they really disturb discus, but angels are not bothered. Tetras, rasboras , barbs, rainbowfish, all that sort of ilk that are active and stay off the bottom will be just fine. They get on ok with plecs too, although obviously there needs to be enough algae to go round.

They are good with midsized and small catfish that they cant outcompete, or be eaten by, they do well with moody pictus catfish too. Basically as long as you avoid over the top aggressive fish, and timid fish, they will basically be fine in community with almost anything. Just remember when you put them in a tank, they will be the most effective scavenger, so you must not include slower feeding species.

Its actually faster to include the fish they dont get on with than the ones they do, they are suitable for most sizeable communities.

Im not sure id trust them with snails though, mine are quite partial to the odd bit of snailmeat, but they never touch shrimp over a centimetre in length. I wouldnt put it past one to trim an eye off an apple snail, and they certainly eat baby snails when a bit hard up for their regular food. Since ive had SAE's the snail populations eventually died out, because they scavenge so effectively, and because they consume baby snails. A snail wont do well in the company of an SAE.

The big no no is mixing them with real flying foxes, they look close enough to be a victim of its aggression. They dont fight back, and cant bite so much as give a mild nip.They could be victimised into an early grave.

The ideal for a cagemate for SAE is anything peaceful , inquisitive and active. Fast movers do best, and be slightly careful about tiny fish getting spooked. aside from that, go for it! The nice thing about SAE's is that most fish apart from cichlids with parental care seem to know instinctively that SAE's mean no harm.

Their disease resilience as long as water quality is maintained is incredible. The only thing to watch for really is obesity, they will quite happily eat themselves into oblivion, granted though they can only do that on fish food as oppose to algae, which they can eat ad infinitum and never get fat. Watch those algae wafers though, theres a bit too much protien in them to allow them to eat as much as they like.

Although they actually arent my favourite fish , they are in my opinion in the top ten most useful, practical, and entertaining fish you can keep. Make sure you get proper SAE's though, the other flying foxes are hell on wheels and almost guaranteed to disrupt the harmony of any community tank. There is no comparison.

Theres pics in the profiles, but ill linky you up a couple you can copy to print off and take to the shop to make sure you get the right fish. Beware of the darker specimes with a very clear gold stripe above the black midbody stripe. Those will be flying foxes. (you know what your LFS is like when it comes to fish identification ROFL ROFL ROFL )Most shops have trouble identifying them correctly and lump them all in together in the same tank.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_3708.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_3701.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_3696.jpg

Theres no real colour variation in this species and the patternation is consistant, so much so in fact that even unrelated specimens look like clones of one another, so if your fish look like the ones in those pics, then you can be pretty sure you have the right fish.


Hope this helps!

Those are so helpful.......Great pics! I already know now that the true SAE has the stripe through its eye, gold on top, silver on bottom. Got it! Any more tips?

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well, if you really want the finer aspects of care, being that the fish is an omnivore, you can probably cater for it better dietarily by using vegetarien based flakes rather than algae wafers, if you want it to be happy and not to obese , try to keep at least 25% of its intake as real algae rather than wafers. They will eat most of the stuff that ottos and plecs will, including zucchini and cucumber.

Their social structure is all about "outposts" so if you can , stratify the aquarium to include, bogwood "perches" above ground level, and dont plant the floor of the tank too densely. That way you might even get to see some very rare courtship behaviour.

Aside from that, there really isnt much to tell, give them the room, make sure their foods are available, and keep the water well oxygenated and clean ,and TBH they pretty much look after themselves. I doubt they'd breed in less than 500 gallons, but at least if you give them places and "perches" to posture on, you might see behaviour most keepers wont. Ive had the odd egg laying sesson. I think a lot about their breeding is to do with 3 dimensional stratified territory, and existing popiulation numbers. Which is probably why breeders, with densely stocked tanks get no luck. I think they avoid mating with closely related specimens and the stimulus for breeding might be occasional "meetings" after having spent time out of sight of one another. I think their population density is self regulating, and in aquaria its very difficult to give them the space they feel is sufficient to breed and still enjoy social behaviour.

I wish I had the cash for a house sized mature , and well algaed aquarium, with stratified bogwood and plants everywhere, id chuck a dozen unrelated SAE's in for a laugh, and about 4 months later id probably have several thousand fry

Well, you asked .

Funny you should mention the bit about perches combined with open spaces LHG - the breeding aquarium for the Pandas that is now occupied by my new SAE team contains JUST those features - not only bogwood perches, but perches formed by the arching Java Fern leaves too, and I've noticed my SAEs sitting on them for all the world like underwater versions of budgies on swings. In fact at least one of them has taken to using my furnishing provisions as a comfy bed for the night.

There's a big gnarled piece of 'art deco' bogwood with Java Ferns growing on at the right hand side of the aquarium, then a wide open space, then another piece of bogwood with Java Ferns on it. There's a couple of modest sized algae covered rocks toward the front, but otherwise the gravel expanse is nice and open.

Oh, and as I type this, they're grazing away happily on the algae on the glass.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

sorry about getting this thread side tracked, but I have never thought of flying foxes as aggressive, I have 2 in my 55 gallon tank and they are as peaceful as the ottos in my tank, they give me no trouble whatsoever and are beasutiful.

Are they usually an aggressive species?

"Make sure you get proper SAE's though, the other flying foxes are hell on wheels and almost guaranteed to disrupt the harmony of any community tank. There is no comparison."

That sounds like an aggressive fish?
inform me on this subject.



-Vincent

Are they over two years old yet? Because if not you might be in for a nasty surprise. In a 55 though they should have plenty of room, and if you have a same sex couple (females) they might be a bit more laid back. Hope your luck continues though, because they can kickoff in much the same way that a CAE can, if not worse.

No, they are about a year old.
Its good to know though that they might become aggressive.

-Vincent

What is "art deco bogwood"? And for open perches, what plant is suitable for this? Flying Foxes are neat, but i know now that they are too agressive for their counter parts. BTW, what are the downsides of a CAE?

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The downside of a CAE is that it stops eating algae after a while and then also becomes aggressive.

-Vincent

You can opt for some ottos. They are peaceful and do the same job as SAE's. They do not get that big when compared to the SAE's.

I have never ever heard of SAEs getting aggressive like CAEs.
They arent anywhere near the temperment of CAES.
Ive got 3 at full size and they arent aggressive in the slightest.



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Lol, now thats just confusing people. SAE 's are siamese flying foxes ( Crossocheilus siamensis )and are peaceful and social ,and thats what weve been saying all along, and the regular flying foxes (Epalzeorhynchos kalopterus)get territorial if not downright nasty on occassion, just like Chinese algae eaters (Gyrinocheilus aymonieri). Just to clarify, if you want a peaceful one, just look for the siamese bit in the name....


... and ottos dont do the same job at all, they are not a general purpose scavenger as well as an algae eater, they just eat regular algae, they prefer new growth,and they dont eat as many types including hair algae that the SAE's do.

Perhaps we should call SAE's something else to save confusion? Lets face it they eat anything, and flying fox is a stupid name, and I associate it with fruit bats TBH.It doesnt really fit them either, since they blatently eat fruit and dont chase after rabbits or have ginger fur, or do anything remotely foxy. They can fly for gods sake, how is that foxy?

Crossocheilus siamensis translates as "that with the fringed or hairy lip belonging to the kindom of siam".Siam is now called thailand anyway. The lip isnt fringed, and the only remarkable thing about the mouth is the ability of the jaw to drop right back to allow skimming.

So from now on I think they should be called the Thai hinge -lipped cyprinid.

Who gives them these daft names, and can we shoot them? So much for the scientific mind a demented five year old could do a better job of naming a fish.

I consider them as having the same behaviour as CL. I would not consider CAE.

What is "art deco bogwood"?

I cal my big piece of bogwood in the second aquarium the "art deco bogwood" bceause it's intricate and possesses numerous brnaches that happen to be very decorative. The general shape of this piece is such that it creates natural cave like structures when sitting on the gravel. The only trouble being that now it's covered in Java Ferns you can't actually see how intricate its structure is!

However, it makes a fine home for my SAEs. They not only perch on the wood itself, but on the Java Fern leaves.

If you're looking for good decor for SAEs, any plant or bogwood piece that provides some kind of horizontal or near-horizontal ledge for the fish to sit upon works fine. Big Amazon Swords, Cryptocorynes and similar plants would be good choices, along with Giant Hygrophyla (the leaves are big enough), but these plants need a large aquarium as well.

As for the question of names for fishes, LHG should also consider the absurdity of using the word 'shark' to describe Cyprinids that are only very distantly related to cartilaginous fishes, even though some of them do have a roughly shark like appearance from the standpoint of body morphology (but has anyone here ever seen a true shark that's black and red?).

Given the long body shape of Epalzeorhynchus species (with Epalzeorhynchus bicolor being a notable exception) one could possibly call them Pencil Carps, but that would only invite confusion with the Pencil Fishes of the Lebiasinidae, though the Cyprinids are more closely related to them than to sharks by virtue of being Ostariophysans (fishes with a Weberian apparatus). They're still in two distinct Orders though.

A good name for the Labeo and Epalzeorhynchus type fishes would be 'Frigate Carps' - on the basis that they (with the exception noted) have a long body shape akin to that class of warship (at least those in the Royal Navy are built on that plan) and they're capable of delivering a hefty punch for their size. Pursuing the naval theme further, how about 'Corvettes'? After all we have other fishes with naval themed names (Midshipman, Torpedo Ray, etc) ...

Just a thought.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Well, you cant really call SAEs flying foxes as that is a different fish altogether "epalzeorhynchus kallopterus" is the Flying Fox.
The fish whos name should be changed is the CAE. Its not an algae eater at all. I have seen in China they actually call this fish "Chinese Sucking Loach", which seems much more akin to its actual nature, and avoids confusing with the Siamese Algae Eater.
Better yet, to avoid confusing at all, list fish by scientific name (if they have one) and use common names only for those fish eluding scientific identification due to classification troubles, or for hybrid/man made fish with no scientific identity.
Ah, but how to convince the stores?


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Lol Cal, I love the reasoning there. "Corvette cyprinids".

Priceless Cool too!

You can always rely on me to think outside the box LHG

Incidentally, while on the subject of names, the name "Chinese Algae Eater" has never to my knowledge been in circulation in the UK. Every time I see that fish for sale, it's labelled "Sucking Loach". Presumably on the basis that the Gyrinochelidae is closely related to the Cobitidae and the Homalopteridae.

Meanwhile, back to SAEs - mine are a playful bunch, and I suspect that once they've put on a bit of body mass, they might decide that conditions are suitable for them to consider the patter of tiny fins, who knows? Fingers crossed ...

EDIT : one of the beauties of one of the places I visit for fishes is that they use scientific names for those fishes that have, shall we say, potential identity problems if common names are used. ALL their Rift Lake Cichlids are labelled with scientific names, and when known, so are their Loricariid and Corydoras Catfishes. So when I bought my SAEs, they had on the tank a label which read:

Siamese Flying Fox
(Crossocheilus siamensis)

Unfortunately the common name choice was a poor one, but at least they supplied the correct taxonomic name for the fish!



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002