FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Both filters hang on the top of the tank with the stem reaching into the tank. Neither have bio-wheels. One is a penguin which has one cartridge which contains the carbon inside it. The other is an aqua clear filter which i have a activated carbon insert and a foam insert. These are the two filters I have. Should they be set up in a certain way either (ex. directly across, right next to each other, etc.) By the way my tank is a hexagon one.

Thanks for all the help


Jamie

Di,

Thanks for clarifying the point for Jamie. One of these days, I will slow down and use complete sentences when I do a post!

Jamie,

You should rinse the sponge in tank water that you are siphoning from your tank. Try to get the sponge clean, no matter how hard you squeeze it, you won;t harm the bacteria. If you haven't cleaned the old sponge, then clean it and put it on the bottom with the new one on top. Sounds strange but it will give your new sponge two weeks before its first cleaning.

The freshly squeezed sponge goes on top. The top sponge moves down in the basket. You may get a little "fog" in the water discharge from your AC but it will quickly clear...

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

I'll let Bob answer your other foam insert questions, especially rotation, but I can clarify one of them for you. When Bob says to rinse it in tank water, you want to use tank water that is no longer in the tank. Like, when I do a gravel vac I leave the bucket just sit for half hour and all the stuff settles on the bottom. AT that point, I dip my sponge in the water and squeeze it gently several times. In my case it is a sponge filter sponge and that yields some really icky black stuff coming out.

By rinsing it in tank water, you don't "shock" the good bacteria as you would with hot or cold water, or kill it with chlorine/chloramine.

Try putting the lettuce leaf in the tank at night, then fishing it out in the AM as you turn the lights on. There should be more.

Bob,

I have had the current foam insert in the filter about 3 weeks...should I put a clean one underneath it or should I put a new one on top? I am thinking new one underneath.

Thanks

Jamie

The snails got into my tank b/c I added live plants. At first I thought it would be cool to have a couple of snails so I actually asked for the plants that had snails on them (big mistake). I kept noticing about 4 or 5 snails on plants, ornaments and the sides of my tanks, but wait I only had 1 or 2 in my tank, where did the others come from. Then one day I was cleaning my gravel and in my fish out bucket saw a bunch of baby snails. So I cleane most of my gravel and got a lot of the baby and other snails out. I also put lettuce in the bottom of the tank and that worked to get 4 or 5 out. I also just took them out w/ a net everytime I saw them. Since then my tank has been alright with snails. I see 1 every now in then but lot less then before.


Jamie

I have heard about rinsing the sponge in the tank water.

Does this mean I rinse it in the tank or does it mean when I do a water change rinse it in the water I have taken out.

Do I want to add any of that water back into the tank?

What does this do to the beneficial bacteria in the filter(sponge)?

Is this why I should put 2 sponges in so that I am only disrupting half of the bacteria in that filter?


Thanks for all the help everyone

Jamie

Jamie,

Add a second Hagen sponge to your AquaClear so that you two sponges and no other media. The sponges will provide both biologic and chemical filtration for you.

Your maintenance schedule for your AquaClear should be:
Weekly - Rinse the lowest sponge in the tank water discharge as you siphon your tank. Move the top sponge down in the basket and place the rinsed sponge on top.
Monthly - Thoroughly clean the filter container and riser tubes. Use a toothbrush to scrub the corners and edges for algae and snail larvae. Remove the impeller and scrub the fins and magnetic base with the toothbrush. Use a tube brush to scrub the impeller"pit". Also perform the weekly maintenance.

If you use the above schedule, you should have no problems maintaining the AquaClear and your fish will thank you!

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Snails . They are nice when you want them and a nuiscance when you don't want them .

How did they get into your tank? Did you add plants at some point - live plants?

How are your levels now?

If you were to use something that kills snails, it can give an abrupt ammonia or nitrite spike too. This includes Ich and parasite meds.

One way to depopulate them is to put a piece of lettuce in the tank and pull it out when you see a bunch of them on it. Keep doing that periodically and it will drop their numbers. There are snail eating fish, but they really need larger tanks.

One filter is a 120 Vac 60 Hz 6 W (I use Hagen filter inserts and just the foam one right now)
the other is a 120 Vac 60 Hz 12 Amp ( I use the Marineland Penguin filter cartridge Size A)

My rectangle dimensions are 18.5 by 7.125

One reason I think my nitrites and nitrates rose so much was that I started to gravel vac my gravel and found a lot of baby snails and other gunk. I also had much to much gravel in my tank so I vac the whole tank and took out about 2/3 of my gravel. It was really clean for awhile but I noticed today it was pretty gunky again. I haven't been feeding them much food b/c I want to keep my nitrite and nitrate levels down. I feed only what they eat in about 2 or 3 minutes. I vac'd some of the gravel today and am going to go over that spot again tonight b/c it still looks kind of dirty and then later this week I'll do another part of the tank. (does this sound ok?)


I hope I am giving you enough information to help me out. And I really appreciate all the time and effort you have given to helping me. (so do my little fishies)

Take Care

Jamie

The penguin is either a penguin mini or a penguin 125. Is the BioWheel about 1.5 inches or closer to 2-3 inches? Not knowing the model makes it difficult to ascertain if you are getting adequate filtration, but assuming it is the smallest that both offer, I would think they could handle. My guess is that you had high nitrites because it was just overloaded for the size tank. Time will tell. How are the nitrites today. Try to measure them daily before any water changes and hopefully you will see them drop on their own now that you've reduced the load. I would do daily water changes until your nitrates are about 5ppm and I would do smaller ones (15-20%) unless someone is stressing in the tank. Nitrites usually cause gasping, swimming in filter outflows or bubbles, hanging at the surface and complete exhaustion - sitting at the bottom.

Now, I'm wondering how gunked the gravel is deeper down. When tanks are cycling, we don't typically gravel vac, especially deep. It is easy enough to do a "hover vac" to pull up loose stuff on the surface. Newer tanks usually aren't compacted deep into the gravel anyway. However, when mine was done cycling, I developed a minicycle. What happened was that I didn't do any deep gravel vacs (to the glass) and things accumulated around and under decorations. So, what I did to end the mini-cycle was pulled out stuff from 1/3 of the tank and deep gravel vac'd just a section of the tank, removing things from that area. Then, after a few days, I would do another section and so on. Good bacteria is living on the surface and we don't want to loose too much at once when a tank is young. Once established and if not overstocked, you can deep vac the entire thing and your filters will deal with the load. I do my 20 long all the time this way every 6 weeks or so, rather than doing partials. I just remove everything and go right to the glass. Weekly I do vacs around everything.

You say you have a hexigon. This is bad news for your stocking ability because the tank is tall. How about measuring one of those sides for me and we'll calculate the surface area, unless you know how to do it. That's what we need to see how you can stock.

The reason surface area is so important is that the more you have in a given tank, the more water is exposed to air where it picks up o2 molecules. Fish need those molecules to breathe in water. The less surface area, the less o2. Filters can kind of compensate for that, depending on size and maybe that's why your friend had two filters, especially if there is a Penguin Mini involved. I used those on 5 gallons and they are ok for 10 gallons, but a 125 is better.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 03-Apr-2005 10:16

one filter looks just like this one

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3610&inm=1&N=2004+22769+113565


the other one looks like this but without the bio wheel

http://www.aquatichouse.com/FILTRATION%20MENU_files/penguin.asp


I think they are pretty old filters...got the tank from a friend and this is what they had with it.

My fish seem to have red gills, some look like they are bleeding. I think it may have to do with my ph which seems to be really high b/c my ammonia readings aren't very high. I need information on lowering my ph...I read that peat moss in the filter might help. Would like to know more about ammonia posioning. Only problem with them is their gills seem to be red...still hungry as ever and most are still very active. Please help.

Jamie

I forgot to answer your question about stocking more heavily with more filtration.

While more filtration will certainly process more ammonia and nitrite, and expose more water to air where it can pick up additional o2, there are limits.

A specific volume of water, like 10 gallons, will respond to increasing "bio-load", with adequate filtration, by increased processing of ammonia and nitrite. This means that your nitrates will rise faster. The smaller the volume of water the faster they will rise under such a load. Nitrates chronically above 40ppm are known to affect the immunity of the fish. We see more illness in fish that are in tanks maintained > 100ppm or higher especially. This has been proven scientifically through testing. How do we respond to rapidly rising nitrates? Water changes (provided you don't have high nitrates in your water source).

I recommend to anyone trying to set up their water change schedule to let nitrates dictate that schedule, not time, if the tank is max stocked. If there are no live plants, the best target is 20ppm, but you can also go up to 40ppm. When you get to your target, you do a water change, be it 20%, 25%, 30% and if the interval is close enough (every 5-7 days), you may get away with 40-50% changes. Where does this water change get you? Back to 5ppm? or merely down to 15ppm? You can measure a good hour or two after a water change to see. On a given tank that is at max stock using the surface area rule, with good filtration, I would expect 20-25%, every 7 days to be sufficient to keep nitrates down around 15-20ppm, once you get the tank down to 5ppm the first time.

If you choose to overstock, and have good filtration, you will simply find yourself doing those 25-30% water changes twice weekly or every other day, or even every day.

It is important to understand that the closer your water changes are in interval the larger the change you can make without shocking the fish too much. Some people will neglect their tank and let it go 2 months without a water change. Nitrates are likely 200-300ppm or more and this will not kill fish outright, but will stress them and their bodies. These people will then jump in and do a 50% water change and wonder why their fish are dying. Compare that to someone who does two water changes weekly at 70% and the fish have no reaction other than to get happy and start spawning . The reason for this is that it is not uncommon for pH to drop in tanks over time. Our tap water has buffering agents and when we do weekly changes, for example, you take out some of the less buffered tank water and add buffered tap water. People who do weekly changes have more steady between water changes. Those with max stocked tanks that do infrequent water changes will jump from a lower pH to a higher pH in a matter of minutes. pH changes of more than 0.2 can stress or even kill fish if it is not done gradually over an hour or hours, or even days. If you find your tank at 7.0 and your tap water is 8.0, that 50% change can abruptly rise the pH to 7.5. On a tank that is max stocked or understocked, where weekly changes are being done, the pH would not drop that far.

Secondly, fish can get stressed when in an overcrowded condition. Even if you kept the nitrates at zero with daily changes, the fish can break out into chronic illness, parasites and so on just from the stress of overcrowding.

Stress = Lower Immunity = Sick and parasitized fish.

Hi Jamie,

What kind of filters are you running. If you don't know the brand name and size, describe them verbally. Do they hang on the back or are they inside the tank? If inside the tank, are they submerged or hanging inside? Is there a biowheel? If not a biowheel style, is there just a "bio-bag" on the inside of the reservoir, or is there a foam block in front of the bag? I'm assuming it is not a cannister sitting on the floor.

Believe it or not, you may be close to max stock, especially with livebearers. I commend you for returning fish. You did right by them and by you.

Here is one way to determine the stocking level of your tank. If it is more rectangular it is easy. Measure the length and the width across the center in inches. Multiply them. Then, take that number and divide it by 12. That would be the total number of ADULT inches of fish. This means, you need to look up the fish you have in our profiles and find the "potential size". This rule does not apply to big mass fish like goldies and oscars, nor tall fish like angels, or fish that require roaming room to minimize aggression like "sharks". It is aimed more at small, narrow bodied fish. Do your math, add up your inches of fish and see if there is anything left. A good way to stock larger tanks is to find that max load and stock 1/4 to start, wait until you get 0/0/10, then add another 1/4 stock and keep repeating. Beneficial bacteria grows very slowly. Here are some facts if you are interested in a deeper understanding. Scroll down if you want to cut to the chase where there are straight, bulleted facts:

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

Just don't play with your pH. Its very unnecessary in most cases. Egglayer breeders often have a valid reason for doing so, as do those who keep some very sensitive species like Discus, Cardinals, and some S.A. Cichlids.

Once I understand what kind of filters you have, it will be easier assess what may be happening. If the cartridge is the only place that holds beneficial bacteria, then it could definitely be part of the problem. But, if it is possible that these two 10 gallon filters just aren't cut out for the job.

Use this page and look under "Power Filters" and "Internal...Filters" to see if you can spot yours or something closely resembling it.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/NavResults.cfm?N=2004+22768

One good way to pick a filter in many cases is to get something that is at least 10-15x the number of gallons for gph. That means with a 12 gallon would want to have at least 120 gph up to 180gph. It all depends on species. A filter with an adjuster for flow is a plus. In the early days of Whisper filters up until recently, they only manufactured them with biobags, as did other makers. When you remove the bag or cartridge, you lose your "primary" bacterial colony. This was rather silly on their part, but they eventually got smart and most now have a separate foam block that stays put within the filter, or some other thing. Some can even use a micron bag with littel ceramic pieces in it that stay seeded so when the cartridge is changed, there is still significant bacteria.

If you ever look to change, we can give you several online sources many of us deal with where filters and other supplies are much cheaper. Find the one with the best deal. Case in point is the Aquarium Pharm Master Test Kit that sells for just $14.99 or even lower at some online sites and I see it for as high as $29 in local pet shops . The same applies to filters. Its also possible you don't pay tax depending on your state and shipping becomes less of an issue if you buy several things at once.

The fish you have remaining are "cycle hardy". They can tolerate low levels of toxins so the idea is to keep them low. Water changes can prolong it a little, but the lower levels are more tolerable. Using something like New and Improved Cycle or BioSpira can cut a mini-cycle short. Watch your fish for signs of stress and just respect their need for a constant, steady temp when changing water.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Apr-2005 08:56

I returned:

2 catfish
1 zebra danio
3 neon tetras
2 black skirt tetras

leaving me with
3 mollies 1 male
2 guppies 1 male
2 zebra danios (unknown)

My readins have decreased about half in each case...

should I be doing a lot of water changes...what is this doing to the beneficial bacteria that I am suppose to be building up.

The problem with my tank is that it was doing fine. I had it going for about a month and was doing alright (ammonia, nitrate, nitrite) but was getting a lot of bacteria and fungus problems. But then I cleaned one of my filters and then had to get rid of the cartidge in the other b/c I had to medicate my water and the filter cartridge had carbon in it. So I think I got rid of a lot of the beneficial bacteria that built up in my filter. I also had to much gravel and took about 2/3 of it out which I am guessing again hurt a lot of the good bacteria.



I am going to make sure my tank gets cycled and all tests (A,NA,NI) are at zero before getting more fish.


I have a 12 gallon tank but probably only holds 10 gallons of water at a given time. What is the max, or optimum, number of fish that I can keep in the tank at a time.

Also I have 2 10 gal filters going, is this neccessary, or can i keep an extra couple of fish because of this?

Thanks

Jamie

Bravo Jamie - You did an excellent job.

Lets be careful with the nitrites and nitrates - I think you may have them backwards in the last two readings.

It sounds like you have a test kit with all the readings. If so, that is great.

Your tank is on the latter stages of cycling and that is why you are having so many problems. The fish are experiencing the toxins.

Being that your nitrates stayed high despite the large water change, I'm going to ask you to check your tap water, if you have test kits at home. Lets see if it has nitrite or nitrates in it. Tap water really should not have that much, but lets check.

Don't fret too much about the nitrates. They won't kill your fish the way ammonia or nitrite can. However, it is best to keep it below 40ppm. But, if your tap water has lots of nitrates in it, then that is a little hard. So lets start there.

Don't hesitate to do another water change today. I'll be your fish perked up with that last one. Since it is a 12 gallon, lets go ahead and put one more teaspoon of salt in for the nitrites. Just make sure you predissolve it before it goes in and just dribble the solution in over a few hours. This will "inhibit" nitrite uptake into the blood stream. In essence, it gives the fish some immunity to the nitrite while it is in the water.

Hang in there, you'll get through this. Cycling is a very painful process, but once your tank completes it, you should be all set.

Its good you know it is slighly overstocked. Maybe you could consider taking some fish back? Consider that any livebearing fish will reproduce every few weeks, taking your stock level up with the fry that survive. You can always take them to a fish store. If they are pure strains they may sell them, but they may also put them in the feeder tank.

Do you have New and Improved Cycle or some other bacterial starter? Cycle is pretty good for nitrite phases. It is a bacteria that eats nitrite - the kind we want to build.

You can use your nitrate level to dictate when you should do your water changes. If you stock your tank within limits, you should be able to go one week from 5ppm up to 15-20ppm or so before a water change is needed. If it is heavily stocked and nitrates rise rapidly, then you may need to do water changes twice weekly or more until the stocking is reduced. Like I said, nitrates aren't really bad, but they do cause the fish to weaken slightly so that they get sick easily when really high for a long time. By really high, I mean over 40ppm. This can happen over time and it can creep up, so in the beginning it is good to check weekly to see what it is doing.

I hope this helps. How do the fish look?

Tank Size:

12 GALLONS

Complete stock list and quantities of each fish:
3 BALLOON BELLIED MOLLIES 2 FEMALE
3 ZEBRA DANIOS
2 CORY CATFISH
3 NEON TETRAS
2 BLACK TETRAS
2 GUPPIES

(I KNOW ITS A BIT TO MANY FISH)

I HAVE TO 10 GALLON FILTERS GOING...DOES THIS HELP AT ALL?


Parameters (Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH):
AMMONIA 0
NITRATE 40
NITRITE 10
PH ABOUT 7

Note: you can take a bag of water to the fish store to get all of the above readings. MAKE SURE YOU GET NUMBERS FROM THEM. Descriptions like OK or SAFE are meaningless. Numbers will help us to help you better.

Do you have any freshwater aquarium salt at home?

YES ADDED 1 TSP WITH 50% WATER CHANGE

It is a special salt for aquariums. We cannot use table salt because of additives. If you are in the nitrite phase, your fish desperately need a little bit of freshwater aquarium salt. Predissolve about 1 tsp per 2 gallons in a cup, using hot water if necessary and let it cool, but keep stirring to dissolve. Add a drop of conditioner for chlorine and chloramine. (DO THIS WITH WATER CHANGES) Then, dribble some in every hour all day long, stirring before you do. (SALT OR CONDITIONER) This is very gradual and they won't notice it, but it will keep the nitrites from getting into their bloodstream. This is very important.



Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 40
Nitrate: 10
pH: 7.0
kH: ?

JUST DID A 50% WATER CHANGE AND THESE ARE NUMBERS AFTER 30 MINUTES


Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 30
Nitrate: 6.5
pH: 6.8
kH: ?

THESE READINGS ARE ALL TO HIGH
SHOULD I DO MORE WATER CHANGES NOW???


THANKS FOR THE HELP

JAMIE

Jamie - You never went back to visit your first thread where we were trying to help you. Try to visit your threads a few times per day while you need help and always check back daily.

We need to have the readings on your tank and other info. Copy and paste this info and answer this at least.

Tank Size:

Complete stock list and quantities of each fish:

Parameters (Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH):

Note: you can take a bag of water to the fish store to get all of the above readings. MAKE SURE YOU GET NUMBERS FROM THEM. Descriptions like OK or SAFE are meaningless. Numbers will help us to help you better.

I'm suspecting you are in the early or mid nitrite phase based on time and symptoms. Some ammonia may still be present at lower levels, also contributing to the gill color. Gills can get very red (brownish red) when nitrites are up. Do you have any freshwater aquarium salt at home? It is a special salt for aquariums. We cannot use table salt because of additives. If you are in the nitrite phase, your fish desperately need a little bit of freshwater aquarium salt. Predissolve about 1 tsp per 2 gallons in a cup, using hot water if necessary and let it cool, but keep stirring to dissolve. Add a drop of conditioner for chlorine and chloramine. Then, dribble some in every hour all day long, stirring before you do. This is very gradual and they won't notice it, but it will keep the nitrites from getting into their bloodstream. This is very important.

If there is going to be several hours or more before you can have testing done, please bag some water, then do a 25% water change. This is 2.5 gallons on a 10 gallon tank or 5 gallons on a 20 gallon. VERY IMPORTANT: Make sure you do not alter the tank temp more than 1F or 1C in the process. Fish can get ich if the temp suddenly drops several degrees, or they can get sick in other ways with sudden increases. Use the tank's thermometer to measure the temp of the water you are putting in and match it within 2F. With 25% at 2F difference, the overall tank temp won't fall or rise more than half a degree. This will bring them immediate relief if your ammonia or nitrites are up. Don't clean the filter or the gravel. Good bacteria is trying to grow there.

Please don't add anything that would change pH. Just use your plain tapwater, unless you have a water softener. You may want to ask fish store to test your kH too just to make sure.

So, get tested

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
kH:

And remember, bring us numbers.

EDIT: I see many of us have suggested water changes. Don't get hung up on how much. You can do anything from 25% to probably 50%, but remember to respect the temperature they are currently in and that will keep you out of trouble.

Don't worry about softening your water right now. Before you do that, you need to know what your kH or carbonate hardness is.

Hang in there


Last edited by Cory_Di at 30-Mar-2005 11:24

While doing what Bob above has said also add this too the list:

Turn off the lights, this will help reduce their stress.

I would add Stress Coat to the water to dechlorinate the fresh water, and forgo any of the ammonia removing products as they tend to give you a false reading of the ammonia in the tank.

Please, do a water change now, on the tank...I would do a 50% change today (Wednesday), then a 30% water change on Saturday, again 30% on Wednesday, and continue at this rate till the ammonia level is stable, then you should be able to get by with only 20% once a week.

Please, do a good gravel vac on half the tank today, then hit the other half in a week, you don't want to do it all at once as this will get rid of any beneficial bacteria that you may already have started in your tank, and you need this to help your tank to run smoothly.

How long has this tank been set up? What size of tank are we talking about? What is in the tank? How many? When was the last time you did a reading on your water parameters? What are they then and now? How often do you do water changes? (Be sure the water is the same temperature as the water in the tank)

Do the water change now, and get the information for us, and report back, then we can move on...heidi

And Welcome to Fish Profiles

Last edited by heidi at 30-Mar-2005 11:04

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Lawnboy,

Classic symptoms of ammonia poisoning are:
# Fish gasp for breath at the water surface
# Purple or red gills
# Fish is lethargic
# Loss of appetite
# Fish lays at the bottom of the tank
# Red streaking on the fins or body

Ammonia burns the gills of fish. The above symptoms are the result off them being unable to take in oxygen because of damaged permanently gills.

In an established tank, the reading of this ammonia MUST show an undetectable level at all times. A detectable presence of total ammonia requires immediate action as it is highly toxic in freshwater tanks. Toxicity increases as pH increases.

To treat your tank:
# Do an immediate water change of 50%
# Vaccuum your gravel thoroughly during the wqater change
# Use an ammonia neutralizing conditioner such as Prime
# Be sure that your filter(s) is well maintained and fully seeded
# Suspend ALL feeding


Last edited by bob wesolowski at 30-Mar-2005 06:57

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright