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Hi all,

Just to inform everyone that I'm back in the hobby. Was put of by having a very busy schedule, and also by deciding to keep Red-bellied Piranhas. Very boring fish indeed. The excitement of owning one is overwhelming at first, but once you have it, I don't think it gets any more boring. So back to a community tank. I don't think you can go wrong with them.

Just got the tank 2days ago. Around a 15US gallon tank.

Fishes in the tank:
1 - Long finned zebra danio (quite agressive)
1 - Scissors tail
1 - Red fighing fish
5 - (now 4 thanks to the fighter)Neon tetras

Just brought the fighter and the neons today, and already ate one of the neons as soon as I put food in the tank. (Evil! Pure Evil!)!!! Might need to go now, but maybe just exchange with a different one. Hopefully it will have less of an agressive outlook on life.

Plan on getting a lot of different fish for the tank. E.g, red clawed crab, Guppy, Bumblebee goby (brackrish fish, I know, but thinking of adding a few teaspoons of salt), a few kuhli loach, male drawf gourami, hatched fish, maybe a pleco which doesn't grow to a large size, white-cloud mountain minnows, maybe an elephant nose (don't know if the gravel will be suitable, heard they need sand), enlers livebearer (if I can find any),killifish, lobster/shrimp/crayfish, and some fresh water clams. If I can find them all obviously.

I am aware of the overstocking situation, but regular water changes should sort that out (I'm guessing).

Comments and suggestions are welcome, and probably required as I'm not that sure of all the fish being compatible with one-another.

if u want all those things together (not that u can) u will need atleast a 29 gallon for them to be comfortable, and i highly do not recoment a craw or anything else with claws in that tank, and maybe u got a bad egg, but all my bettas love being in comunity settings, and not all those fish get along, AND u havent cycled so u will go through a spike, loose ur neons and most ur other fish, and maybe the betta, then u will have to start all over

Plan on getting a lot of different fish for the tank. E.g, red clawed crab, Guppy, Bumblebee goby (brackrish fish, I know, but thinking of adding a few teaspoons of salt), a few kuhli loach, male drawf gourami, hatched fish, maybe a pleco which doesn't grow to a large size, white-cloud mountain minnows, maybe an elephant nose (don't know if the gravel will be suitable, heard they need sand), enlers livebearer (if I can find any),killifish, lobster/shrimp/crayfish, and some fresh water clams. If I can find them all obviously.

Well, as has been stated before, you really should have cycled. If possible, return your fish and start from scratch.

Some points to consider in regard to future stocking (bioload/temperament may preclude addition of your projected choices if you choose to stick with your present fauna):

- Zebra danios and scissortail rasboras should be maintained in a school.

- Your betta will likely continue to consume any small shoaling fish kept alongside it.

- Firstly, "red clawed crabs" (Sesarma/Perisesarma sp.) are brackish as well, and require access to "land" (or a commercially available 'Underwater Island'); they will attempt to consume fish as well.

- White clouds, while hardy, are better suited to cool-water setups.

- "Elephant noses" (and morymids in general) are somewhat sensitive to water quality and typically do best in species tanks; what are your water parameters?

- If you plan on keeping both guppies and endlers, be aware that they will hybridize.

- As for freshwater clams (generally Corbicula sp.), there are some inherent problems evident in captive care, namely the providision of adequate microparticulate organics and possible larval parasitization concerns (depending on what bivalves one implicates with the term, some release larvae that seek out temporary fish hosts [while some are quite specific in species selection, others are more generalized]; others produce free-living young); clams tend to burrow out of sight in substrate, and, if they die unbeknownst to the aquarist, may instigate a biofilter crash.

- As for freshwater crustaceans, what are you specifically interested in? Many beautiful and behaviorally intriguing - and widely disparate - species are available in the aquarium trade [not all are community-suitable].

Can you provide more details about your setup? Can you provide any images? Your tank, if carefully (re-)considered, has potential for success.

Last edited by Veneer at 01-Mar-2005 21:03

Last edited by Veneer at 01-Mar-2005 21:04

Last edited by Veneer at 01-Mar-2005 21:04

Last edited by Veneer at 01-Mar-2005 21:07

Last edited by Veneer at 01-Mar-2005 21:10

Last edited by Veneer at 01-Mar-2005 21:11

Fishes in the tank:
1 - Long finned zebra danio (quite agressive)
1 - Scissors tail
1 - Red fighing fish
5 - (now 4 thanks to the fighter)Neon tetras

Danios and rasboras should both be in schools, I believe. Danios are fin nippers and should not be in a tank with a betta (fighting fish). Neon tetras ARE small enough to be betta food, as you found out, and are not good tankmates for them.

(Evil! Pure Evil!)!!!
Bettas are NOT evil. If you put a child in a room full of ice cream, do you expect him NOT to eat it?

Crabs are NOT a good idea for a tank with fish. They will most likely eat any fish unlucky enough to be sleeping within reach of it's claws.

Guppies are a BAD choice for a tank with a betta in it. The long, fancy fins too closely resemble that of a male betta, and they will most likely attack. Also, guppies reproduce like mad.

Bumblebee gobies are actually found both in fresh and brackish environments in the wild. It depends largely on how the fish store is keeping them, you should keep them accordingly.

I believe kuhli loaches are intollerant to salt, so that would be a bad idea. Don't quote me on that, but I believe that's right.

Gouramis and bettas are very closely related. You will most likely have fighting if you have both in such a small tank.

Hatchet fish are top level fish (swim at the top of the tank). Bettas are top level, aggressive fish. Any questions? (Bad idea.)

Plecos are BIG poopers. I wouldn't add one of these if you're going to overstock the tank, which isn't recommended, anyway.

White cloud mountain minnows (WCMM) are cool water fish. Bettas, for example, like warm waters. Not a very good combination.

Not familiar at all with elephant noses.

Endlers are about the same size as neons. As you found out, they will most likely become betta food. Since gouramis are of the family, they may become gourami food, as well. Also being closely related to guppies, you'll find even more reproduction. Also, most aquarists strongly object to keeping guppies and endlers together, as they can interbreed, weakening the endler strain.

Killifish... not my strong point.

Lobster/crayfish - same deal as the crab... not for fishtanks, should be in it's own aquarium unless you want to feed it expensive sushi.

Shrimp... iffy. Depends on the type. May be eaten by gourami or betta.

No idea about clams.

Besides those issues, you have enough fish listed for a tank many times the size of the one at hand. You should have probably around 25" of fish in there when they're fully grown. You might push that with a good cleaning regiment, but if you're just starting out again, I'd take it slowly.

Good luck.

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~

It doesn't seem like you picked a very graceful way to return to the hobby...

If the betta already ate one neon, then, chances are, the rest are doomed. That goes without saying.

An experienced hobbiest like yourself should know about cycling. If not, there's a ton of FAQ's and stuff lying about the site.

And don't even think about the other fish your adding. First of all, a red-clawed crab will eat all of your fish, very, very quickly. If you thought you betta was bad, just wait. The lobster or crayfish would also do the same. Dwarf gouramis are related to the betta, therefore you will have a duel to the death on your hands. Guppies, enders, loaches, hatchets, minnows, and gobies all like to be with companions. If any of these fish are left by themselves, they will dissappear very quickly. Also, SOME BB gobies live in freshwater. Actually, it all depends on what kind of water they are in at the store. If they are brackish gobies, then putting salt in the water will make them happy (unless they are eaten by one of it's tankmates, which they probably will be). However, the salt will kill the rest of your fish. Sorry to say, there are no plecos that can fit in your tank. Even a bristlenose would be packed like a sardine with all those other fish. I don't know anything about the elephant nose or the clams.

Honestly, I don't think you could have picked a worse selection of fish for your tank. You might have to return the fish and start all over again. This time, do your homework first. And, by the way, I'm the most liberal person on this board when it comes to stockign tanks. You can push the envelope if your willing to clean a little extra, but what your doing is insane. I'm sorry about your bad luck, I've have similar problems before.

Darn: Veener and Kitten beat me to it

Last edited by djtj at 01-Mar-2005 21:18

Welcome back, T

Thank you all.

Your comments were just as expected. Seems I haven't lost my knowledge about fishes. The same goes with my risk taking attitude. Preaty sure the fishes don't like that attitude though.

The fish tank was brought on e-bay and the danio and sciorstail came with it. They cycled the tank for a few days before I got the rest of the fishes, and everything seems to be fine so far. I plan on getting more danios but am looking for long-finned ones as I find them to be more attractive. I don't, however, plan on getting any more sizcors (forgot how to spell the damb thing again) tails.

As for teh choice of fishes; no comment. I agree that you are absoulutly right that it might cause problems, but from previous experience, I believe that it all has to do with the fishes personalities. For instance, I kept a betta with guppies and drawf gouramis before in a small tank, and didn't have any problems what so ever. The same goes for Crabs. Had one my previous small tank, didn't cause any problems. As for Endlers and Guppies, I don't think I'm going to be able to keep both anyway as I'v never seen any Endlers being sold in London, UK. I would much rather have Endlers than guppies, so if I do find them, I will probably forget about the guppies.

Pleco? I had one before and did start growing to a large size, so was weary about getting one. Just thought that some species might not grow to large sizes. Apparently was wrong. Clams? Really doubt I can find them. Lobster? forgotten already. Maybe for the future though. Bumble Bee goby. Very glad to hear that they can be kept in freshwater. Will be checking with the petshop before I get it, as advised.

If you want to see the tank, just follow the link.
ay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4359330040&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

Will attach or send links of the setup over here, but a little busy right now. Maybe later.

welcome back to community fish

I would stock the tank with only a couple of fishes.. Due to the fact it is a small tank.
Becarefull with the pleco, they make lots of poop.

Last edited by fallenlordz at 02-Mar-2005 09:02

There are some plecos that don't grow too big, Bristlenoses coming to mind immediately, of course. Umm... not sure of the other ones, bulldog, I think? Something like that. Just be aware that no matter what the size, they poop like crazy!

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~

Wholesale Tropicals in Bethnal Green/Shoreditch have endlers. So do the Aquarium Design Centre (name?) in Portland St, sometimes. I personally prefer Wholesale Tropicals, they have better fish in General.

And your ebay link doesn't work...

i know you are aware of the overstocking issue but you cant put that many fish in a 15 gallon tank. Also you should separate the betta if it continues to eat the neons, a betta bowl is not good however Too small!!!! Try a breeder atachment and you could let the betta out once in a while under supervision.



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