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ah, I see. I thought it was a hardware thing, chemicals used for "insert mysterious purpose here". I am out of my depth in the hardware shop... far better in the craft/fabric environ.

live and learn...

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

"Cup, I don't really think that is the point, the point is that CO2 is generated which puts the fish to sleep..."

My point was, could the increased uptake of the remaining ionized salts have anything to do with the putting down of the fish, or was it merely suffocation?

Clove oil is often recommended as another means of killing the fish. Alcohol probably is similar.

victimization, freezing is considered by most a very inhumane way to kill a fish. Most feel that they will suffer for quite some time until they perish. It takes a fairly long time to freeze water. Similarly, most feel that fish suffer if they are thrust into boiling water.

tankie, the baking soda does not kill the fish by pH swings, it generates CO2 which puts the fish to sleep. Pretty much the same as the clove oil and the alcohol.

Here is what Bailey and Burgess, professionals and the authors of Tropical Fishlopaedia say about euthanisia:

Acceptable:
1) Anaesthic overdose
2) Concussion, with destruction of the brain
3) Decapitation
4) Predation* (of sutnted or deformed fish)

* Diseased fish should never be fed to other fish

Unacceptable:
1) Flushing
2) Breaking the neck without subsequent destruction of the brain
3) Suffocation by removal from the water
4) Dropping a live fish into boiling or iced water
5) Slow chilling "...t is now thought that the physiological processes involved are painful and the suffering considerable."

tankie, the baking soda does not kill the fish by pH swings, it generates CO2 which puts the fish to sleep. Pretty much the same as the clove oil and the alcohol.

There wouldn't be much CO2 produced unless the water were very acidic, as Sodium Bicarb. is an extremely weak base. Most of us keep our fish in tap water that is very close to neutral in acidity unless we are purposely altering it for breeding purposes or something. My own tap water is pH 7.2, if I added baking soda to it I would just get a solution of Sodium Bicarb. and water, no CO2 produced (If you don't believe me, you can test it yourself.....put some baking soda in a test tube with plain water, stick a balloon on the end of it and watch to see if any gas is produced). To start the double-displacement reaction and liberate enough CO2 to kill the fish you need to have a fairly strong acidic solution and quite a bit of baking soda.

The only significant action when using baking soda alone is a change in pH, which would still have to be pretty extreme to shock and kill. If you want to use this method and have it be at all "humane" you'd better be using straight 6 m NaOH or Drano or something. If that were the case then it would even be arguable that massive tissue damage was the killer rather than "pH shock" alone.

Alka Seltzer tablets are a different case, they contain sodium bicarbonate and a powdered form of CITRIC ACID. When the tablets come in contact with water, the acidic and basic salts are both dissolved and are able to react and produce carbon dioxide gas. If that were done directly beside the fishes' gills, I could see it asphyxiating them. On the other hand I wouldn't personally use this method because the amount of CO2 produced may not be enough to kill instantly and the other chemicals in an alka seltzer tablet may be irritating to soft tissue. Keep in mind that Alka Seltzer also contains other drugs that may be having some undesired effect as well. I have heard of fish being euthanized with an "overdose" of dissolved CO2 directly from a compressed source. In my opinion that would be a much more reliable and humane method of a similar treatment.

I personally don't like asphyxiation alone because it is always possible for the fish to regain "consciousness" when placed in properly oxygenated water again. Also a fish will tend to gasp and struggle because asphyxiation isn't exactly instant. I don't like to use alcohol because of its irritant/burning effect on soft tissues (like gills, again if you don't believe me you could always try snorting some vodka or something but I don't recommend it). Also, if you underdose the alcohol for some reason, it isn't instant by any means.

By far the most humane method of euthanasia (used by veterinarians and the like) is a strong overdose of some kind of non-irritating anaesthetic. For most veterinarians with access to drugs, the choice would be some kind of barbiturate or something similar. Most of us don't have that available, so clove oil is a popular choice. It is used in lower doses to anaesthetize large fish like koi for surgery without any apparent tissue damage or irritation. Fish have been known to "wake up" when reintroduced to fresh water (like the toilet) so clove oil is usually used with some secondary method to ensure the fish is really, truly dead. You can anasthetize and decapitate, freeze in the clove oil solution, whatever.

Decapitation is quick and painless but it is also messy. I have had to do it a few times and it still makes me sick every single time. I find clove oil is much easier on me and on the fish. They just quietly drift off instead of struggling on the chopping block. HTH.

EDIT:

From the FAQ:

Finally one can use alcohol to euthanize a fish. Make a 1:5 (20%) solution of Vodka (or any other similar strong grain neutral alcohol) and water.

I have used this method personally with a 20% solution of rubbing alcohol, which was stronger than it would have been if I had used vodka. I had to euthanize a betta. The fish struggled and gasped in the alcohol solution for about 10 seconds before I snatched it out and decapitated it because I couldn't stand to watch it any longer. I will personally never use alcohol again. I'm not sure if other people have had better results with it, I'm only stating my own experience. In my own opinion, struggling and gasping for 10 seconds is just not acceptable. I HIGHLY recommend clove oil because it doesn't cause any reaction at all and just looks very peaceful.

Last edited by CareBear Overlord at 13-Jun-2005 02:14

I had some ifficulty with alcohol too. Short of dumping the fish in a glass of straight vodka, I'd not think it would work.

I've had success with clove oil, both having it work quickly and slowly.

I've also tried vodka AND clove oil (under the mistaken impression that the vodka would help emulsify the solution) and it just stressed the fish.


In the old vet textbooks, two basic fish anaesthetics are mentioned. Alka Seltzer and Clove oil. Both things the fish can recover from, and neither really provide any analgesia (pain relief)

If you get a chance, OD with MS222, Isoflurane or Sevoflurane.

or chop its head off.


For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

I'm surprised that, after the dismissal by one of cutting and sharp objects, that no one proposed the equally barbaric brick option. I personally wouldn't want the mess, but it is an option...

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The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

Here is the protocol which I have used and prefer for fish euthanasia.

Mix together 9 ml vodka plus 1 ml clove oil. (The vodka helps emulsify the clove oil. As the vodka is well diluted with water, it does not appear to stress the fish.) Add this to one gallon of water in a container you will not be using for anything else. Add the fish. (Alternately, you can already have the fish in the one gallon of water and then pour the vodka clove oil emulsion into the water.) The fish will quickly drift off to sleep with very little or no sign of distress. After all gill motion has ceased, freeze the fish solid or decapitate to ensure the fish does not reawaken from the anesthetic.

If you get a chance, OD with MS222, Isoflurane or Sevoflurane.

Calla could you tell us what those are and where to get. Might be good to have to hand in case a humane manner of euthenasing is needed. (heaven forbid but you never know)

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

All of those are veterinary anaesthetics. For MS222 at least you would have to get it from a vet usually or possibly from an aquaculture or chemical/laboratory supply store (usually mail order), another option would be to contact a local university marine biology or fisheries department and ask them where they get it, availability to hobbyists would depend on local regulations.... It is far better than something like clove oil, but clove oil is recommended because it is easy to get from even a pharmacy.

MS 222 (Tricaine Methanesulfonate) is usually cited as the anaesthetizing agent of choice for fish in most scientific literature and aquaculture resources, probably because it is easily administered in solution. It isn't deemed necessary for the average hobbyist because generally "pet" fish aren't valuable enough to warrant the use of something like that. Some exceptions might be in large and very expensive koi or marine specimens. From a web site (American) that sells it:

"This is an FDA-approved, ANAD #200-226, high-grade brand of MS-222 (tricaine methanesulfonate), which is an anesthetic/ tranquilizer of fish and other cold-blooded aquatic organisms. When used properly, it induces a temporary state of immobilization that is rapidly reversed when the animal is placed back in clean water. It is commonly used when handling fish during manual spawning (stripping), tagging, measuring, weighing and surgical operations. It is a great sedative for transporting, sorting and grading fish."

[link=http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5752/cid/1613]http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/5752/cid/1613" style="COLOR: #f5f906[/link]

More Info about MS222: [link=http://www.alpharmaanimalhealth.co.uk/VPDF/MS%20222.pdf]http://www.alpharmaanimalhealth.co.uk/VPDF/MS%20222.pdf" style="COLOR: #f5f906[/link]

Other (American) sites that sell it:
[link=http://www.argent-labs.com/argentwebsite/ms-222.htm]http://www.argent-labs.com/argentwebsite/ms-222.htm" style="COLOR: #f5f906[/link]

[link=http://www.sciencekit.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_430645]http://www.sciencekit.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_430645" style="COLOR: #f5f906[/link]

It isn't something you would want to just buy and keep handy for when the need arises unless you have a lot of fish and would be using it constantly. It will get old and expire. Clove oil, on the other hand, doesn't.

Isoflurane and sevoflurane are used in people too. As far as I know they are inhaled gasses, you wouldn't be able to use them at home without some really expensive equipment and probably a degree in veterinary medicine (Calla correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know much about it ). Anyway, most of the time these options just aren't cited for your average hobbyist, they are just to expensive and difficult to acquire to make them really worth noting.

Victim, I disagree. The fish don't "fall asleep" immediately. They would feel the change just as if it was happening in the aquarium. It is also a horrible way to euthanize a goldfish or other coldwater fish, since they can handle very cold water and might not be thouroughly killed.

Using alcohol seems like a really good method to me. They die almost instantly.

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

The sevo and iso come in liquid form and require the machinery to turn them into a vapour.

You can just add them directly to the water for fish.

Indeed, you do need special access to get them.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Clove Oil is probably one of the easiest, quickest, cheapest, and most humane options aside from getting a euthanol agent from the vet.
My pharmacist said that Clove Oil used to be used to put animals to sleep before vetrinary medicine discovered better compounds, and it is very safe, and can be used as a general anesthesia, or as a euthanizing agent.
It also is very very good for toothaches!
1 part clove oil to 10 parts water for general anesthesia,
or 1 part clove oil to 4 parts water as a euthanizing agent.


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For what it's worth, a bottle of clove oil is $4 from the local Pharmacy here.

I don't understand the reasoning that a tropical fish would suffer a frozen death - staying alive through the temperature drop until its cells burst through freezing etc etc

How come an easy way to kill trops is to have a heater failure.. I had neons who sadly died while being transported, in a short time, and the water was in no way chilled or even frozen. Maybe one could argue that neons are a 'sensitive' fish, but using them as an example, how would a trop survive severe and sudden temp drop down to freezing point, to suffer a 'painful' death? I should imagine they would expire well before that.

Last edited by malaikah at 16-Jun-2005 19:00

I've tried the freezing thing a few times. Those trops tolerate far lower temperatures than you would think.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Hi

I had to do this - unfortunately

After a dicussion on this site I decided to use Clove Oil

A large dosage in tank water in a jam jar - it took only seconds

Clove oil is easily and cheaply obtained from a Chemist (used on humans to numb toothache)

I shall be using this method if needed in the future

Regards

Dave

the clove oil seems to be the best non-messy solution.

freezing might be quite damaging at start, but my guess is fish get completely numb in the cold, being cold-blooded creatures and all. maybe that's where this idea came from.

vodka is a BIG no-no in my book. remember that the fish take it not only as a drink, but also in the eyes and gills. alcohol in sensitive area burns like hell, as it does extensive damage to the tissue. i wouldn't take even small dosage in my eyes, so why should the suffering fish will?

the quickest and least stressful way to kill a fish is decapitation or smacking it very hard everything else just stresses the fish and thats what we are trying to avoid

according to my sources vodka is the most humane way to euthanise fish

Last edited by dan76 at 11-Jun-2005 04:27

OH TOLEEDY!

Baking soda doesn't really do anything other than make the water really hard...

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.