FishProfiles.com Message Forums

so is it mistreating a fish, b/c they have it in a holding tank? or maybe feeding it different types of foods. it can back and forth again and again. but i feel it is pointless to stop buying from one store, only b/c to them it is a sale, and if u stop their will be others. probably in the long run it will work somewhere, but the hard fact is that most people just dont know anybetter nor care. so i do what i can with my fish, and if people at lfs ask me for help i will, but other than that i dont bother,

i mean yeah it is bad/sad that alot of fish perish on ones way to learn better, but that is the way that a large portion of the new fish keeping populations learns, unfort. there is a large group of people who just have no desire to learn, and it is sad b/c these are often the people who work at lfs, or often at lfs just started their first atnk like within aweek and think they are experts and tell new people at lfs the wrong stuff, and it is a circle.

Unfortunatly, in most pet store situations, the employees will not listen to you. Sometimes you get people who will insist that, for example, Dragon Fish can be kept in a 20gal with guppies. When you correct them they typically ignore you as if you are the villiage idiot, because they dont know that your information is correct.

Inky

Helping your friend is good, educating them better but my take on the store thing is this. I feel that educating the store of there falts and ask them to provide better care. Sometimes the employee was not informed of the proper way to take care care of the fish they have so they treat them like the rest of the fish they have. If they can correct the problem and you can assist by taking a fish to thin out the stock and such I dont see a reason to boycot them. I try to help them all but if there un willing to correct the problems then sure boycott it seems to be the best way to deal with the situation, complain to the managers and to the pet treatment enforcment agency

The main thing that ticks me off is overcrowding fish that dont sell into 10 gal tanks (like 50 Oscars) and miskeeping them. I think that stores should have decent sized tanks if they plan on keeping that many fish.


As for taking the fish back to the store, that is NOT a good idea. Some stores will just flush them, wether they are alive or not, to prevent their tanks from getting infected. If they do accept them back, many stores can barely afford vet care for dogs and cats, let alone a goldfish. Your best bet would be to post an add in your paper and try to give away the fish that way, or ask your friends and see if anyone has a goldfish pond for him to live in ^_^ Just my opinion.

Inky

I don't think there is anything wrong with rescuing a fish and not putting it in a proper tank right off the bat.

However, I do not agree with rescuing a fish and keeping it in improperly for its life time, even if you feel its better than its previous home.

For example: If your friend has a goldfish in a one gallon, putting it in a ten is not really rescuing it IMHO. You are still putting a robust, pond fish in a very small tank. Sure, the water quality is better, but goldfish just arent meant to live their lives in a tank like that.

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

IMO it is not rescueing if it is from a store. I have seen pirahana in a 10 gallon at my lfs but its always important to remember that those fish are in there less than a week at most. If you buy a fish from a store only to stick it in a small tank you are not helping it, just take a good look at it and think "Will someone else be able to buy and take better care of this fish than me?". Its similar to certain stores that keep cats in cages. This is not a permanent home for the animal and is just for display purposes.

As for rescueing fish from friends, my opinion is this. Take it back to the store. I had an injured fish right before I was going on vacation, I choose to take the fish back to the store where they could give it proper vetenary care instead of being at my tank without care leading to certain death. Granted I do have an amazing lfs.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

I obviously don't mean that every store should have hundreds of gallons for each fish. That was off the topic. The question was on the ethics of "rescuing" fish from stores/friends/etc.

Just going to stick my nose in here: I agree for the most part with what's been said, and it's all well and good, but it's unfair to expect every pet shop to have 100+ gallon holding tanks for all of their fish. I don't consider it mistreatment when I see 10 baby oscars in a 15 gallon holding tank at a pet shop. I've seen very clean 15 gallon tanks holding many baby oscars/ other large cichlids that run with a constant refreshment of new water and UV sterlilization. I DO consider it mistreatment when I see that water is cloudy and polluted, and dead fish laying about, and others dying of the ammonia and nitrite buildup. I see this at local chain stores, I don't care for it at all but i do not feel responsible for the care of those fish. As LF mentioned, though they're mistreated here I also have no way of taking care of them, and I do not feel it is my responsibility to take care of every mistreated pet fish out there.

I think of fish keeping as a hobby (well for me it's more like a little supplement to plant keeping ), not as a life choice or a duty. You get certain fish because you WANT them, not because you feel bad for them. I would look at a friend's overstocked tank the same way as I would look at a pet store tank - I would offer them advice, try to explain that their care of this animal is lacking somewhat, try to see what they realistically can do (their money/ space/ time, afterall) to improve the situation if they're willing to listen. But I can't say I'd take it from them. The only way I'd step in is if they said they were going to flush the fish when they don't want it anymore, in that case I'd be willing to take it and put it down myself, as humanely as I can.

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 18-Jan-2006 12:17

---

Back in the saddle!

I have to agree with bignose. I'm not that experienced with fish (BIG understatement) but at a shop near me they are keeping a red tailed catfish in a 1 or 2 gallon goldfish bowl, and i know this is wrong. If you buy animals like this, you are pretty much giving them permission to get more for anyone else who comes along.
Just my opinion.

BlackNeonFerret

In your opinion, is it justified to buy a fish and keep it in suboptimal conditions, in order to save it from even worse care?

IE. Your friend has a goldfish in a 1 gallno tank. You take it home and put it into a 20 gallon. Now, goldfish require a bigger tank. However, a 20 gallon is much better than a 1 gallon, agreed?

Or, if you have an empty 55 gallon and you go to your local Pet**** and see 20 baby oscars in a 10 gallon. Now, honestly, most of those fish will not be bought and placed in a 100 gallon tank. Is it right for you to buy the fish and give it ok care as opposed to leaving it and letting it have terriable care?

Now this is a mostly abstract question, but I also have a real life delima. The pet** by my school is selling ADFs (at a good price I may add ) Unfortunatley, they have no idea what to feed the frogs and they are litterally starving to death. I have an overfiltered 2.5 gallon in my bedroom (with 4 frogs I already bought on friday). Would I be justified to save a couple more, even if it means overstocking my tank?

Not at all, in fact I'd love to see that article of yours.

Okay, heres my two cents:

NEVER EVER EVER buy from a store that is mistreating its pets like Bignose said. Some stores (not usually chain stores) have been known to mistreat animals severly, and when people buy the mistreated animals it only opens up another spot for them to mistreat another animal. I don't want to go on and on about this, and if you want to read my report that I did on this (word formatted) feel free to PM me or email me and I will forward it to you.

As for your friend, I believe that you are in the right to offer a goldfish a larger home, just keep in mind that you still need to offer it propor care, and if you cant (or it just gets too big) try to give it to a better home ^_^ If it was in a 1g though, it may take it awhile for it to outgrow a20g.

Basically, to sum up my rambiling: Petstore not usually a good idea, rescuing from a friend is okay though. (Unless your friend is just going to buy another goldfish for thier 1g)


I am not trying to be mean or anything, so if I came off that way I appologise.

Inky

I agree with all the above, like LF im contradicting in myself but if u were to take the fish and give the proper care (which no doubt in my mind u do)even just to take them out of those conditions and rehouse them temp, till they get to a appropriate home i find acceptible.

djtj,

You raise a major question, I think an even bigger one than you imagine. Your principle can, at least in my opinion, be applied to all kinds of situations in life that involve social behavior.

The general question is: how much of a weight are you willing to carry to support a social system (that might be corrupt anyway, or imperfect at best)?

I personally have no straight answer for this as my actions contradict each other. While I occasionally seem to see the bigger picture, at other times I am very narrow minded.

To your example: I think nobody would have the right to blame you for a fish’s death because a friend didn’t know how to care for it and you didn’t take it in your possession. If you should take the fish then it automatically becomes your responsibility to care for it, in the right way. If you are not willing to take this responsibility (and I for sure wouldn’t blame you) then you shouldn’t take the fish.

Just some thoughts about a very complex subject,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

i often get fish over my head, but what makes it ok in my mind is i understand the requirements, and will take care of it to the best i can. plus the fish stands a better chance with me than with others by me

Good point.
But what about the first example, where the frient would not be getting any more fish and it would only be a one-shot goodwill deed?

I'm not sure how others are going to respond to this, but I feel you shouldn't ever buy a pet at a store that is mistreating them. If you buy them, you are just letting the store know that there is a market for them, and the store will now buy more and therefore more pets suffer. If you are concerend the pets in the store are being mistreated, then report them to the appropriate authorities -- buying them only will make the overall problem worse. I mean, are you going to buy every batch that they get in?