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Hey every one

ive got a strange one for ya

i am in the process of seeting up a 3ft tall fry tank as i have a brood on its way in about 3 weeks

anyway i couldnt come across a surfactant free ammonia so i thought ill cycle the tank with one of my venestus from the comunity tank.

hes a big guy 3-4 in but since i put him in he seems depressed, hes not eating and sits in the corner

amm-<0.25
nri-0
nra-0-5
ph7.8
hardness-3-400

i realize is probably the ammonia but ive been doing daily water changes to keep it as low as possible.

i was also thinking of using zebra danios insted so i can move this guy home but will 3 be enough? and when im done with em can i move em to my 10 gal with 3 cardinals and one 1cm cichlid fry?

Even low ammounts of ammonia can cause stress in some fish, mainly those not accustomed to the presence of ammonia.

Since you have an established tank, with developed bacterial colonies why didnt you just seed filters on the established tank if you cant get ahold of ammonia? Using the gravel will also help.

3 zebra danios in a 3' tank isn't likely to cycle very quickly and will likely have a minicycle as you continue to add stock. Additionally by doing water changes to keep ammonia levels low you increase the ammount of time it will take for the ammonia to build enough that the nitrItes can begin to lower the ammonia naturally.

^_^[hr width='40%']"So take the photographs, and still frames in your mind.
Hang it on a shelf in good health and good time...
It's something unpredictable, but in the end is right
[link=I hope]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] you had the time of your life"

when i start a new tank, i use the dirty water i've sucked from my gravel in my other tanks, i don't use fish , i have two smaller betta bowl and 3.3 gal that get cleaned every week, so i just dump the dirty in and oohh yah i use the old filter media from one of my other tanks that fit this new tank and then i use cycle bacteria and keep adding cycle every week for about 2weeks or so, or when my ammonia and nitrite tests have spiked and dropped , then i think its totaly safe to add a couple fish

90g- anguilla rostrata,6 silver dollars,2 pictus catfish 60 g- anguilla rostrata 29g-4 blk skirt&4 serpia tetras, 6 harliquin resbora, 3kuhli loach 20g- 2 mountian minnows, 2 zebra danio& dojo loach , a corn snake and 2 monster dogs

ill give that a go (theres plenty of crap in my community tanks following a weekly water change) as for cycle im not a fan, ive previously had little succes with it.

i was thinking what if i buy say 20 feeders and use them to cycle the tank? after i can feed em to my venestus right?

You could, but im probably not alone in thinking its a bit mean to make em suffer and then have em be eaten. Most countries have rules on the use of live feeder animals , usually stuff like - you can only offer them for a limited period of about an hour or so in every 24 , and that otherwise they must be well treated. I assume using them to cycle a tank contravenes those rules. Youve already got a community tank with all the ingredients you need to cycle a new tank, so theres no excuse for using live fish to do it.

Swap over a bit of filter media from an older tank and feed it with small amounts of water from the changes you do in the other tank, and in about 14 to 20 odd days you can test the water , and if suitable ,add the fish.

The biggest issue with using feeder fish is that they're quite often disease ridden. Not something you want to introduce into a brand new tank . In fact most people either q-tine their feeders or breed their own to prevent the spread of disease.

The "gunk" at the bottom of the tank is great for plants but doesn't contain as much of your biofilter as say a few handfuls of the substrate, or the used media sponges or floss from the filter. The bacteria needs to cling to something which is why just using the water from an established tank is useless.

^_^[hr width='40%']"So take the photographs, and still frames in your mind.
Hang it on a shelf in good health and good time...
It's something unpredictable, but in the end is right
[link=I hope]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] you had the time of your life"

ok sounds good

so heres how i think ill do it

open up canister filter on established tank, grab a couple of hand fulls of those rock things in it (whats the best way do do it to avoid killing bacteria?) replace it (probably needs it hasnt been done in like 4-5 months)put them in the box filter in the new tank and feed tank daily with crud from established tank? in three weeks (which is when my new fry should be born) test water and if all is well wack em in!

with regards to the feeders i didnt want to be mean to em, if anything i thought id b delaying their inevideble future! dont get me wrong i love fishies!

The "crud" more commonly known as mulm wont feed the bacteria. You'd do better with just useing a small ammount of fish food crumbled into the water.

If you've got that long to wait anyway you could easily do fishless just using a small ammount of fish food. It's an older method of fishless cycling but it does still work.

Taking some of you filter media and a handfull or two from the established tank and making sure you feed it with some food should do you good. I'd make sure you test just to be on the safe side, after all it is going to be for fry . If you keep the handful of gravel in a shallow container it'll be easier to remove it once the fry are in as you will likely want to keep it bare bottomed for a few weeks if not longer.

^_^[hr width='40%']"So take the photographs, and still frames in your mind.
Hang it on a shelf in good health and good time...
It's something unpredictable, but in the end is right
[link=I hope]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] you had the time of your life"

The old/used water has nothing to do with cycling a tank. I do use some (30-40g for a 125g for example) but that is just to keep the ornamemts and extra seeded stuff from killing bacteria. I also donot gravel vac it, just take it off the top(less nitrAtes up there). If it is a fry tank, next time throw a sponge filter in one of your other tanks for a week or 2 and then use that.

ok i just did what i said i was going to above, will "feeding" the filter with a pinch of food daily say be enough to keep it alive?

next time will definetlly try sponge filter!

what if i put a plant from my other tank in there? will that help?

thanks for your help guys! cycling tanks is the worst part of fish keeping!


Last edited by african_man at 06-Sep-2005 19:44

The "crud" more commonly known as mulm wont feed the bacteria. You'd do better with just useing a small ammount of fish food crumbled into the water.

Mulm actually has a load of bacteria on it. It works very well for seeding your substrate. To collect it, just vacuum really deeply into the gravel on an established tank to get a lot of the brown junk out, siphon it into a bucket, then pour off most of the water. Lay the crap left at the bottom of the bucket under the top bit of gravel. IME you can cycle a tank really quickly this way.

Anything solid that comes in contact with tank water will have beneficial bacteria on it. Mulm has more because it's basically actively rotting organic matter, lots of food for all kinds of bacteria. Makes good plant food too.

Just for clarity for fishless cycling- you use tankwater from other tanks to feed the filter that you have already seeded- it comes complete with ammonia from fish respiration and fish poo. Saves you having to use fish food- which isnt very effective, or buying ammonia.It is of course what keeps your biological filtration running under normal circumstances in a mature tank.

Everyone says dont use old tank water- BUT YOU DO!

Not on its own though- you have to have seeded the filter first.

so provided i add mulum say daily till my fry arrive then the tank should be ok?

some people don't use cycle beneficial bacteria, but i do. i think it works great along with the seeded media and 'mulm'(i learn new things everyday) sometimes the tank gets all cloady , but that just a bacteria bloom it'll clear up in a day or so. happy fishing

90g- anguilla rostrata,6 silver dollars,2 pictus catfish 60 g- anguilla rostrata 29g-4 blk skirt&4 serpia tetras, 6 harliquin resbora, 3kuhli loach 20g- 2 mountian minnows, 2 zebra danio& dojo loach , a corn snake and 2 monster dogs

Pretty much all the ammonia and nitrites in tank water should already be converted to nitrates giving the bacteria in a fishless tank practically no food source while raising nitrates up to surprising levels. Aside from pure ammonia adding something like raw shrimp from a grocery store or fish food is about the best way to feed the bacteria. Adding a bunch of mulm could cause water quality problems in the future. I would add some of that or used filter media to start with and then feed the bacteria with fish food. I prefer not to add alot of unnecessary junk to the gravel that I'll just have to clean up later unless I'm setting up a well planted tank.
Products like Cycle are definitely not going to cycle the tank instantly. I have used new improved cycle 3 different times and it sped up the cycle by at least 5-7 days faster than tanks that I didn't use it in.

Last edited by sham at 07-Sep-2005 16:48

think where the water comes from when you add water froma mature tank- from deep in the substrate, from when you use a gravel vac. This would be less likely to be open to the processes of filtration thusly having a higher ammonia content. I fyou used the water from the surface of course you would have almost no effect.