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Hummmm so that must mean you wouldn't approve of my other 55 gallon tank that holds and constantly reproduces, the BN's, the Common pleco, the 2 Large Angels, a brood guppy producing Angel food, varying numbers of Kribensis juvies and Bristle nosed Juvies, A large Oranda, a 9 inch Striped Peacock eel, s 7 inch Peacock eel, 20 or so golfball sized apple snails, a very happy otto, 3 bratty Yoyo's, 6 very sneaky but sweet Kuhli's, 10 Anaeus Cories, 5 Panda Cories and a partridge in a pear tree?

Now you see why I want to split them up!

Maiden



Last edited by Mermaiden at 10-Jun-2005 05:35

it will work

if you sell your fish later on when they get too big or upgrade your tank as necessary

but..angle with goldfish is an odd thing....I won't try it...

Maiden, that does sound like an extremely stocked tank to me. However if you are able to maintain the water quality and are not experiencing any sick fish or fish fighting for territory then continue as you are. We can only tell you what we think, in the end its up to you whether you decide to change how you stock your tanks or not.

---

Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Between the plecos and the goldfish, there will be enough waste produced in that tank for twice that manay gallons. I wouldn't do it.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...

About all you could do is push the tolerance of your orandas into the warmer area, and take the angels colder.

there are two problems with this, so keep them in mind and be careful


1) increasin the temperature of the orandas is going to increase their metabolism, which will increase their ammonia output. this will mean a stricter cleaning schedule and the possibility of stress on the fish's bodies until you get it right.

2) the lowering in temperature for the angels can unpet their immune system, leaving them open to infection and generally in a weaker state. This shouldn't last, once they adjust, but it is something to be aware of.

I *think* you could get away with 75*F. I'm not recommending keeping cold water with tropical, but if you are going to do it anyway we may as well help keep the fishies comfy

good luck

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

The Amazon often does become a river of dead fish, come the dry season. I have also kept angelfish in ponds (via the inspiration of another user on these boards, Mike R), and they have done quite well.

That being said, you really can't keep those fish in there. Yes, I am saying it. What Lindy said was actually more along the lines of; "if we can't persuade you, than do what you've been doing". All of your tanks are stocked to the brim, and I suspect that some of your fish are being suscepted to high levels of nitrogenous wastes. Plants will only decrease the amount of swimming space available for already overcrowded fish. If you can locate a pond near you, place the goldfish there. Depending on where you live, the pleco might go in as well.

Thankyou Katie but I'd still like to have temp readings done of the water 1 to 2 feet below the surface every day for a year. Its flowing water fed by ground water and runnoff and in some places the flow is fast enough and current rapid enough to power a boat. Again I'm not arguing, just voicing my curiosity and desire for more than oppinions.

Back to the fish, LOL Angels have been bred, line bred and in bred for so long that most of the Angels available in my stores are not your typical little debutantes from down south.

These fish are hardy and like someone else said take the same temps as the rest of their non Amazonians with eaze.

My two oldest Angels are larger than my hands and they have learned to enjoy a tank with no heat unless it drops below 75. I try to maintain their tank between 76 and 78, you know how hard that is but thats the goal.

Mermaiden

Pssh, 76 F is not a problem for ANY angel. They'll do fine.

Hi Mermaiden,
as an Anthropology major considering specializing in South American Paleontology, I could tell you a little bit about the Amazon.
South America is for 1, below the equator for most of its continent. This results in tropical weather of course, as most countries below the equator even have sea water hitting around 76F near the shores.
When you look at the profile of the South American Continent, you will see on the ocean side of the west coast (peru, chile, etc), that it is a vast coastal plain, which is in most places desert like. This coastal plain moves inland into the shadow of the big mountain ranges in south america (andes being largest). The land goes up up up and up some more, then flattens off at a plateau, which is more wet than the coastal plain, but still quite dry. More than you would expect for mountainous areas.
Up this high is where you find the famous ruins of Machu Picchu.
Now if you look at the east coast of south american,
The land is very different. It starts out as a broad chunk of stone, with little to no surface water at all on the farthest eastern peninsulas and land,
then travels inland and the land drops to several feet below sea level, and becomes rich, wet, hot rainforest all the way west to the mountain ranges.
In the shadow of the mountains, with all the forest, heat becomes trapped. This is where the amazon river flows.
From its peak in the mountains temperatures during the hottest part of the year raise the mountain rivers to as much as 65-68F, and as the water flows down the mountain and hits the heat and humidity of the jungle, the water temperature steadily rises.
Temps in the amazon in the heat of summer can rise to over 110F, bringing the water up to as much as 82-86 and very possibly as high as 90F in the shallower waters.
The water is deep, slow moving, and warm.
I have heard my Archaeology professor say it is like swimming in a bathtub!
So it is no doubt that the fish who live there are accustomed to the heat.
The only time that changes is during the monsoon season, when the rains cool the river slightly, dropping the temp down to about 74-76 Degrees during Winter.
Fish like Discus and Angelfish often are found in Black Water tributaries, where the water is shallower (less than 6 feet deep), and is dark tea colored almost black with the tannins from wood and roots and decaying trees.
It is super soft (about ph 6) (gh 0), and is warm, often rising most of the year to at least 84F.
That is why I say Angels are preferably a warmer water fish, and will do worse in colder water than your goldies will do in warmer.
What I mean is, it is easier on the goldfish to acclimate to a higher temp of 76-78, then it is for an Angel to acclimate to a goldies temps of 65-68F.
Thats all I mean, Angels are hardy and strong, but not as much as goldies.
I would be very afraid myself of the goldies eating the angels fins, and then losing eyes
(happened to my sister when she had an angel and an oranda in the same tank).
I hope this helps and answers your questions for you about South Americas climate and rivers.


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I agree Katie, I've been doing some research since that last post and although information is sparse and geared more towards touristy stuff I have found one dive log from down there and the water he was diving in was 76 degree's.

That means nothing. It was recorded on one dive in one location. I'd like to have daily records of temps from the head of the system to the ocean.

Its just mainly due to curiosity. Nowadays I think you'd have to order some Altums or special order wild caught fish to get anything wild from that area. The fish farms are even breeding the rarer Plecs when they can now. Although I havn't seen any Zebra's farmed yet. They come from Mountain streams so probably wouldn't do well in Florida ponds.

Its been fun, thanks everyone.

Mermaiden

Thanks for that post Sneaky, didn't ignore you in my last one just got side tracked! What are you majoring in? Ummmm maybe you should get a grant and study the Amazon and send me daily temp reports???hint hint?

mermaid

No major fish farms have bred L numbers in large amounts thus far (well, what we consider "fancy" anyways--many hypostomids are farm bred). Furthermore, the Amazon is a HUGE river with many tributaries. Even the warmest regions of the Amazon do not consistently remain at 84F; western Brazil/Eastern Peru to be exact--temperatures slip into the mid 70s during the rainy season and creep up to 80 or so following it, or so goes the wet dry cycle used to trigger xingu/tapajos loricariid spawning, which inhabit amongst the warmest waters in Brazil. Also, you're forgetting that angels seek covered water, choked with weeds; this dramatically reduces water temp. In fact, Gan nagels use their own variation of the wet/dry cycel by conditioning the angels in 76 degree water inside, and then transferring them to outdoor ponds of Singapore. There, they breed, and the parents are returned to cooler water for recovery. The fry are then moved back to cooler enclosures before the hatching of the eggs to allow for better fry development. Their fish are amongst the envy of the angelfish world, and several popular strains have made their heyday in said aquarium.

Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 25-Jun-2005 14:48

Wow, thats great info, thanks for that. I'd like to see more fish raised rather than harvested. I just don't care for the Gene manipulation that some think they should be allowed to do. Ex:Ballon Rams? But thats another subject all together. Poor crooked spined little buggers. Wish the guy that thought of that had that back pain for a day!

I have a friend that has a 120 gallon Marine tank. At one time it contained two gorgeous huge Carpet Anemones. Well, they spawned and it was a disaster. The water was the color of milk with eggs everywhere. This tank was stocked with live rock from floor to surface as well as the sump being chock full of LR due to a store closure. You can imagine what that did to the params. Those Carpets should have been doing that in the Ocean where they belonged. It made my friend and I sick. Some of the marine life and fresh water life available to us shouldn't be, in my ever so humble oppinion. We're supposed to be caretakers, not killers. Ok, I'm stepping off the soap box now.

I had seen more than one Picture of gorgeous tanks containing Oranda's and Angels on some Asian sites and had to have one. So far everyone seems happy. I have the heater on one end in a corner and at night when the house temps drop the Angels are in that corner and the Goldies are on the other end of the tank. The ever so happy Plec is all over and enjoying not having to bowl for snails and Cories.
Mermaid

tell us your progress

~elaine~

Hi Von! Thanks for the interest.

The Plec is loving not having an obstacle course of snails and plants to get his relatively large body around and through.

In the first tank he'd get frustrated trying to get to his food and start swimming as fast as he could from one end of the tank to the other bowling Apple Snails and any fish too slow to react, out of his way. It was scary to me. I was always worried someone would get hurt so its a relief to have him in a more open tank with only a few snails for waste patrol and recently added Albino kribs on the bottom of the tank.

He see's me coming and swims to me and hangs on the glass in my face like he's never done in the past. Hims happy! LOL No competition for his green beans!

The large Angels and 3 Oranda's are doing fine. The baby Oranda's are quite the little clean up crew and constantly checking the substrate for scraps of food.

The Goldies are the eye catchers and will look awesome when all three are the same size. Once you get closer the Large Angels catch your eye but its hard to beat the color of Red and white Orandas.

Sigh, I need more tanks more fish MTS is giving me the shakes!

:%):%)

Mermaiden:88)