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I also tested for nitrates in my tap water and i got a reading of 0.

But remember, even if it is not his fault, if it looks like it could be, then the LFS will use that as a loophole in their deal. The store will not go through the fine details. They don't want to give you your money back (they are a business) and they will use this against you.

Cup,

You are confusing me. I don’t really understand what you are trying to say, except that high (70ppm) levels of Nitrate are not dangerous for fish in the short term. Although I personally don’t agree with this statement (long term damage could show up much later), I certainly know that you are not alone with this opinion.

Is the point of your statement above that it is actually the LFSs fault and the fish have been sick? Any other factor would be the same for all fish that are purchased: All fish are transported, means stressed, and, at least for you, the high Nitrates are no problem either.

Eric’s tank is planted, we just don’t know how well (come on Eric, tell us!).
Eric’s Nitrate levels fall significantly after a water change, but within 2 weeks of no change they surge up to 70ppm. Do you consider this normal?

I think the discussion has evolved from the original issue of loosing fish to the discovery of a more significant issue with Eric’s tank.

I would appreciate if you could clarify this a little, as I am always curious and willing to learn.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

"You are confusing me. I don’t really understand what you are trying to say, except that high (70ppm) levels of Nitrate are not dangerous for fish in the short term. Although I personally don’t agree with this statement (long term damage could show up much later), I certainly know that you are not alone with this opinion."

I said such levels are not lethal.

"Is the point of your statement above that it is actually the LFSs fault and the fish have been sick? Any other factor would be the same for all fish that are purchased: All fish are transported, means stressed, and, at least for you, the high Nitrates are no problem either."

The point of my statement was that nitrates were not the primary source of his fish troubles and did not kill the fish through it's toxicity.

"Eric’s tank is planted, we just don’t know how well (come on Eric, tell us!).
Eric’s Nitrate levels fall significantly after a water change, but within 2 weeks of no change they surge up to 70ppm. Do you consider this normal?"

I would prefer that eric supply us with some exact numbers other than 50-70.

"I think the discussion has evolved from the original issue of loosing fish to the discovery of a more significant issue with Eric’s tank."

Not quite. I do recall offering an explanation as to why eric's nitrates were going over the roof.

I completely agree that it is time for Eric to supply us with some hard facts here, we are wondering off into highly speculative areas of why things are the way they are.

Nevertheless, just for my understanding:

“I do recall offering an explanation as to why eric's nitrates were going over the roof”

Do you mean your statement of high levels of Nitrite in the tab water? Then why would his ppm fall to values we consider normal? Even if he does a 50% water change, with originally having 70, and tab water with 30, this would make a Nitrate of 50ppm. We really need to talk to him.

Furthermore, I guess you misinterpreted my statement

“I think the discussion has evolved from the original issue of loosing fish to the discovery of a more significant issue with Eric’s tank."

as me trying to steer this thread back to the fish deaths. Well, that is exactly not my intention. I want to know why his ppm are so high. If I read your statement right then you agree that high levels are not good in the long run. I am concerned about his tank situation in general, not just the fish that he lost recently.

Eric, where are you?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

"Do you mean your statement of high levels of Nitrite in the tab water? Then why would his ppm fall to values we consider normal? Even if he does a 50% water change, with originally having 70, and tab water with 30, this would make a Nitrate of 50ppm. We really need to talk to him."

Again, like I said, I would have to see specific numbers first. Nitrate levels cannot be calculated using simple arithmetic averages.

Cup,

While we are bored and waiting to get more info from the only person who can give it to us, could you be so nice and help me to understand the ppm distribution a little better. Please correct me where I am going wrong with my assumptions:

ppm stands for Parts Per Million and is the equivalent of milligrams per liter, correct?

Now, if I take a bucket that contains 1 liter of water and has a Nitrate concentration of 50ppm, then add an additional liter of water with a concentration of 0ppm, shouldn’t I have now 2 liters with 25ppm? Or wouldn’t the Nitrate distribute evenly throughout the water?

Going around the other way, I have a bucket with 2 liters and a concentration of 70ppm. I remove one liter from the bucket which gives me still a concentration of 70ppm. Now I add 1 liter (=50% water change) with 30ppm. I have now 70 + 30 milligrams = 100 milligrams of Nitrate in 2 liters of water. That should mix to exactly 50 milligrams per liter, or 50ppm.

Not right?

Thanks for your information, hope you don’t mind,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The effect of high nitrate levels on fish in a tank, where they have slowly been acclimated to them, is indeed not terrifically harmful in the short term.

However, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about fish being suddenly added into high nitrate levels, from no-one-knows-what. Nitrate shock is a common cause of death and stress, and I'd say it's the obvious conclusion in this case.

-Molly
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Protein and excretion is constantly being metabolized into waste compounds, ultimately winding up as NO3. Thusly, taking NO3 levels some 2 hours after the water change will yield a mathematically insensitive number; one which will not coincide with previously made calculations. This is why multiple water changes over the course of several days are suggested when attempting to lower nitrates.

The thing is, that fish are not highly responsive to NO3-- not to mention that he was picking up fish from a LFS: the nitrate levels in said tanks are usually QUITE high, even when given daily water changes. What is referred to as "nitrate shock" is most often associated with another stressor.




Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 01-Aug-2005 14:51

Gone for one day and my thread starts to overvflow with messages. To start off by answering some of your questions... my tank is not heavily planted and its not bare either so it would be in the middlle (medium planted tank). My nitrates always have done this. Maybe theres a significant source of nitratres in my tap water? And as for the clown loaches... they are less than an inch and will be out of the tank when they hit 2 or 3 inches, so I cant see them contribute to the bioload all that much. And for filter cleaning I will do it every month since I am running a canister (fluval 204) and in it I have the 4 foam pads, carbon and two media baskets full of bio max.

Edit: I kind of looked at the saltwater chart when I did the test by accident, so the nitrates are actually 50 right on.

Last edited by ericm at 02-Aug-2005 10:11

Nitrate is not generally expressed (expressed does not mean lethal) in fish unless well over 50 ppm, and by well, I mean about 70 for scaleless fishes (true scaleless fishes, not psuedo scaled botiids) and usually around 100 for scaled, robust animals. Even then, it is not the nitrate which harms the fish most intently; rather, stress and plumetting DO levels. Even at these readings, the nitrate is still not considered lethal, though long term damage will without a doubt occur. If I were to sport a guess, the stress induced by both nitrate levels AND abrupt relocation caused already unhealthy fish to kick the bucket (possibly secondary infection as well). If you do not have any live plantage, the problem might not entirely be your fault. Remember that in many areas, tap water comes out at 30+ ppm straight from the tap.


Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 01-Aug-2005 11:52

LOL
U guys sound like scientists in the field for 40 yrs

There is still no reason for your nitrAtes to be over 20 ppm...long term effects and short term effects don't matter, it should always be below 20 ppm for the comfort of the fish. It doesn't matter if they can survive high nitrAtes, fish can survive really dirty tanks too, but do we let them live in dirty tanks? No. So stop saying it's ok to have around 50-70 ppm of nitrAtes, it's not ok, even if your fish are used to it, it's a problem that needs to be fixed.



Last edited by Tetra Fan at 02-Aug-2005 19:17

I think I may have found the problem for high nitrates. I did a water change today and I noticed one of my black neons was missing. So I looekd all over and I found it in the corner of the tank at thesurface. I think it may have been in there for a while since it had no tail . I dont know how i missed it. Well the neons always split up so sometimes I just think they are hiding. But I think I found the problem. Must of been in there for a while and all the ammonia ended up as nitrates.

Last edited by ericm at 02-Aug-2005 19:54

I did a water change and nitrates are back down.

"So stop saying it's ok to have around 50-70 ppm of nitrAtes, it's not ok, even if your fish are used to it, it's a problem that needs to be fixed."

Who said it was okay? Survivability does not neccesitate comfort, MIRITE? Read posts more carefully, please. Besides, eric is aware that these NO3 levels are unacceptably high and is looking for ways in which to treat the problem (though it seems he may have already found it).


Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 03-Aug-2005 16:10

Cup and Tetra Fan (Nameless),

Wow, let’s take a step back. Cup if you don’t mind, I would like to use a few quotes of your earlier posts:

Nitrate is not generally expressed (expressed does not mean lethal) in fish unless well over 50 ppm, and by well, I mean about 70 for scaleless fishes (true scaleless fishes, not psuedo scaled botiids) and usually around 100 for scaled, robust animals. Even then, it is not the nitrate which harms the fish most intently; rather, stress and plumetting DO levels.

And later:

I said such levels are not lethal

But then again, you also say:

Even at these readings, the nitrate is still not considered lethal, though long term damage will without a doubt occur.

You might be absolutely right, but for someone else that has to interpret your statements it appears as if your position is that there is no problem with such high levels in Eric’s tank. I had the pleasure of chatting with Eric and I believe the last thing he needs right now are mixed messages.

I think we actually all agree that “higher” levels of Nitrate in a tank over an expanded time period are not good; we just form our statements about this fact differently. Cup, I was looking at various answers that you provided in many posts and I have no doubt that you are a knowledgeable person. May I make the suggestion that you elaborate your responses a little more so that this kind of confusion could be avoided?

Peace,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wow since when is this a battleground . Well i solved the problem. It was that dead fish that I somehow missed. Nitrates are back down to the 5-10 ppm range.

I do believe I expressly stated that damage WOULD OCCUR, albeit not immediately. If I recall correctly, there were several posts early on which read that the toxicity of the chemical NO3 was in fact what killed his corydoras. This, by all icthyo-morphological standpoints, is a false assumption. THAT is why I made it so ounced that the chemical was in fact not lethal in present concentrations; simply because it wasn't true. I would prefer it, thusly, that you not continue to nitpick at my words (it may be very likely that you mean well, but this is how I genuinely feel), because they are all there.

In case you are still bemused by my phrasing, allow me to express myself in a concise and proper manner:

Ideally, NITRATES SHOULD REMAIN FAR BELOW 50 PPM; 20 IS GENERALLY CONSIDERED THE HIGHEST ACCEPTABLE LEVEL OF SAID NITROGENOUS COMPOUND.

NO3 does not kill at 50ppm, nor is it noticeably toxic at this point. One should, however, be suspect with such levels, as it means there is likely something running afoul in the aquarium; THUS, IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED THAT NO3 LEVELS STAY BENEATH THIS THRESHHOLD, SO TO SPEAK.

Once nitrates reach the 70 ppm range, NO3 toxicity does become ounced and livestock stress is noticeable.


Here are the facts, eric:

Your fish will not die right now, nor will they receive any noticeable physiological damage, SO LONG AS THESE NO3 CONCENTRATIONS REMAIN TEMPORARY.

To safeguard your fish from any possible harm, keep nitrates below 20, if only for the reassurance.

Change 20 % daily to gradually lower your nitrate levels.

Well if they were sick when you got them, im sure the high nitrate level didnt help. When fish are brought home from a store that doesnt have good stock, especially fish that can be sensitive to water parems, it is imperative to watch your water paremeters and keep them in check.

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