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I would disagree with the point of protein in the diet. Frontosa are piscavore and eat lots of protein yet are generally peaceful. Also many of the malawi haps and peacocks eat lots of protein yet are the more peaceful of cichlids. The most important factor overall is tank size.

Calilasseia

Thank you very much, as you say now I know. One thing I already knew was that my fish love it 5 bits all broken up six days a week (no feeding on water change day)
Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
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Ah, Aquarian. A brand we get in the UK, not surprisingly because it's made here

Only thing I see in that list that gives me minor cause for concern is the preservative at the very end of the list. Most of the other convoluted chemical names in that list are chemical names for vitamins, vitamin derivatives or other substances that are considered vital for nutrition (biotin and folic acid being two - folic acid supplements are recommended for pregnant women, and are usually added to fish foods because they're a vital nutritional component of any fish's food). As for the inorganics in that list, one or two are sometimes added as preservatives, but happen to have as a side effect the provision of valuable trace elements. Manganese and Zinc in small quantities are useful trace elements, but dosage has to be small, because in larger quantities they can become toxic. Another metal that can be problematic is Cobalt - this transition element can be toxic in large quantities, but is also a vital trace element, forming the metallic component of Cobalamin, better known as vitamin B12. Inability to metabolise vitamin B12 is a known and serious disease in humans, and people with this metabolic deficit need B12 injections on a regular basis. Fishes will require B12 in small quantities in the diet too. Only thing is, vitamin B12 is expensive to synthesise, although I gather that now it is more widely available because certain transgenic bacteria have been harnessed to manufacture it by the biotechnology industry, just as there are programmes in place to use transgenic bacteria to manufacture other substances of importance to humans such as human insulin (for diabetics) and clotting factor VIII (for haemophiliacs). The latter of course became a pressing issue once AIDS reared its ugly head.

The tocopherols are vitamin E and related compounds. Vital as natural antioxidants and removers of free radicals from living systems. Without them, we'd probably end up succumbing to cancers and other degenerative diseases before we reached 40. Important especially to life forms that spend time under tropical sunshine, because UV light is a known generator of free radicals - it has the capacity to create ion pairs in tissues illuminated with it, and through this mechanism, free radicals, which are destructive both to tissue proteins and DNA. Vitamin E and related compounds help living systems repair the damage and keep free radicals under control.

So now you know Keith.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Calilasseia.

Is this what you wanted as I am interested in your reply.

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Calilasseia

This topic is drawing some very good constructive replies.

I was refering to human foods as additives used that have been known to cause problems with children and adults alike.

I have a copy of the additives numbers booklet some where, reason being the grand children and some of their problems in their earler years.

With the "additives" I will also reword that to all the "ingredients" that go to make up the fish food products.

I have tried to scan the "Ingredients" of the algae chips.
Note it does have a full list as it is a USA product.

Again thank you Calilasseia for the help in this topic.

The way it is going could be another topic for you to get stuck into it would be interesting to see how much research has been done along these lines of behaviour in Aquarium fish.

Keith

keithgh attached this image:


Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Another point to consider many human foods & additives (all those numbers on food items) can and do cause agressive behaviour problems with some children.

I purchased some Algae chips and it is full of chemical additives.

Which brand Keith?

My Hikari wafers don't have any additives other than the ones you'd expect to find in a fish food. If your algae chips have E-numbers in them (as they're known on this side of the pond, as a result of a European parliament labelling directive) then that would probably contribute adversely to fish behaviour too. Tartrazine (E102) has acquired a deserved notoriety for inducing hyperactivity in small children (throw out the Sunny D, people!).

However, one of the more confusing aspects of the E-number labelling system is that some beneficial additives are given E-numbers along with the synthetic colours and other less happy additives. Riboflavin, listed as E101, is better known as Vitamin B2. E120 is Cochineal, a natural colour obtained from (of all things) scale insects, and E141 is chlorophyll, the principal constituent of just about every green plant on the planet. Also, E160a covers all the carotenes, those orange pigments you get from carrots and certain peppers. E300, listed as an antioxidant, is actually Ascorbic Acid, otherwise known as Vitamin C, a vital requirement in the human diet. E306 covers the Tocopherols, which includes Vitamin E.

If you want the full list of E-numbers, which includes information on which substances are banned in human foods in certain European countries, then this link will give you an Adobe Acrobat PDF document that you can save to your hard drive and read at leisure (Acrobat plugin for browsers required). Then, if you see any of these substances in fish foods, you can check to see if they have any contraindications listed with respect to human health, and extrapolate from that to your fishes (as far as such extrapolation is valid of course).


Last edited by Calilasseia at 18-Apr-2005 14:34

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I thought if Haps and peacocks were on a high protein diet

I think your are thinking of mbunas. Peacocks and most haps are carnivores which need a higher protein diet.

Thats mbunas that would get bloat. The only hap that I know is a herbivore are taiwan reefs. Even then they arn't very suspectable. There isn't a lot known about bloat. But diet is the main answer.

greenmonkey51

I thought if Haps and peacocks were on a high protein diet
they would run risk of getting Malawi Bloat ?





Last edited by DaFishMan at 17-Apr-2005 21:54

The Amazon Nut...

So, while the RTBS sexes certainly can behave differently, there is a strong case that it may just be individuals. Some aggressive, some more peaceful. There are many conditions (such as other shark-shaped fish in the tank) that experienced fishkeepers can cite that tend predicate more or less aggression, but there will always be exceptions.

I am thinking along these lines but "Why is it so" there is always a reason so what is/are the one/s here?



New point.. Amount of protein in the diet..
With some fish a higher protein diet will fuel aggression.

I will also disagree with that point I feed my fish 15 blocks of frozen Blood Worms every week and that would be enough to send the tank crazy if that was the case. I have been doing this for at least several years now.

Another point to consider many human foods & additives (all those numbers on food items) can and do cause agressive behaviour problems with some children.

I purchased some Algae chips and it is full of chemical additives.

Just another line of thought.

Keith

Last edited by keithgh at 17-Apr-2005 03:54

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

I think it is important to note that individual fish are unique, whereas the info in the profiles are general and average. There are just too many different individual fish out there that the law of large numbers says that there will always be exceptions to the norms or averages in the profiles. That is why someone can post on here that they have always kept tiger barbs with their bettas without any problems, but in general the more experienced fishkeepers know that this is not usually a good idea. Same thing with full-grown angels and neons. Again, many examples, but in general, not a good idea.

So, while the RTBS sexes certainly can behave differently, there is a strong case that it may just be individuals. Some aggressive, some more peaceful. There are many conditions (such as other shark-shaped fish in the tank) that experienced fishkeepers can cite that tend predicate more or less aggression, but there will always be exceptions.

p.s. and unforunatly Heidi, your story is anecdote, not proof. A very compelling, interesting and telling anecdote, but an anecdote nonetheless. Proof would require repitition of trials, control studies, etc. ...bascially you have to follow the scientific method. One story does not mean a lot by itself -- now 200 stories and you may have something. Nevertheless, my condolences that your classroom cannot be your own, not unlike a family, if the teacher is calm and peaceful and happy, the classroom reflects that.

Not wanting to pinch another thread I would like to put this up for discussion.

We all know that some species eg Bettas the males are the more aggressive also they are easy to sex.
Again the Gourami another easy to sex species when older some males can be very aggressive.

Now here is the problem/concern I will use the Red Tail Black Shark "RTBS" for example.

Can anyone for 100% sure tell the difference in the RTBS easly if so how is it done?

Many members have peaceful RTBS and many have aggressive RTBS.

Could this be the reason that one of the sexes is the aggressor.

Also other species not easy to pick the sexes while they are young are Angles, Gouramies, Silver Sharks and possibly many more.

Just because the RTBS is a shark does not make it an aggressive fish as many sharks are totally non aggresive.

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Green IS relaxing ! Cal excellent points..

New point.. Amount of protein in the diet..
With some fish a higher protein diet will fuel aggression.
(again, I will use the oscar as an example) I will assume this goes for many other SA cichlids. And possibly other species ?

The Amazon Nut...

Cali I'm in full agreement with you...

It is the reason why at the beginning of the school year I only used half the lights in the room (the dimmer half at this) and relied mainly on the light coming in through the window...

It is the reason why when I go to work on bulletin boards and covering the walls with some sort of material for backgrounds I do it in various shades of green and blue...

I remember a professor of mine back in college who also had the same beliefs. It is after his guidance that I set up my classroom each fall...As little of the "normal" lighting as possible, relying on windows, covering things with blues and greens, playing classical music in the background, or other comforting noises, and for a long time using the mint plugins (I can't find the mint scent anymore) This all provides for a trusting, comforting setting, and a setting that my kids find to be wanting where they want to be and want to learn...

Now turn to the present situation...
My classroom was all but taken from me in January...(for the best of the students) The lights have been on full force ever since. The window was blocked off so you can't even get to it with the 2 filing cabinets New signs/posters were made on flourescent colors, yellow and orange primarily (still get nauseated when i look at them) and my wall covering have been removed and replaced with bright yellows and reds, and oranges...The reasoning? "You obviously don't know what these kids need in order to learn, you just don't know how to teach. These colors are very beneficial to their learning, and you don't need those plug ins, as she sprays the room with something quite obnoxious medicinal smelling crud...and pulls the plugins out of the wall (they were lavendar)

So what do i have now in the classroom? She has left, the room is still decorated how she felt it was needed (why redecorate at this point, I'll be leaving soon) And the filing cabinets are too darn heavy at this point for me to move away from the windows and it's too dark without the lights...how we were able to keep the fish tank is beyond me:%)I really expected it to be thrown out at several times, but it still remains now with several fry...the only truly peaceful thing in the room Now my blood pressure runs exceptionally high, and I feel agitated most of the day...the kids argue, and whine and complain to say the least...I had to basically break up a fight between two of them yesterday...

If this isn't proof that things are better on a more natural level than this stark bright ugliness I don't know what is...

Heidi

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Calilasseia

Thank you so much.

Yes green is very relaxing just think of a loverly tropical forest. My tank is very heaverly planted and all green. That is why I call it "Placidity"
Is this another reason I dont have any agressive fish in my tank??????

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Coming up Keith!!!

This was originally posted over a year ago. For those who have never seen this before, prepare to be amazed

Green Is So Relaxing


While in 'editorial' mode again, I thought I'd introduce everyone to the weirdness that is my PC desktop. Not directly, because I don't have premium member status and can't directly post images. In any case, I think a few people (especially those stuck on 56K modems) would be pretty hacked off if I embedded a whacking great 1024 x 768 true-colour image within my topic post. Especially if it didn't contain any fish imagery! But I digress. The reason I've started this topic is because I was introduced, at an early age, to an interesting idea, which has in a small way come to fruition on my PC desktop, and in the process has led to numerous derogatory comments about my aesthetic sense.

Basically, I've changed all my Windows desktop colours to multiple shades of green, with white text. I've had this desktop setting now for several years, and quite a few people look at my desktop and wonder why I've chosen the desktop scheme I have. Likewise, I look at most of the supplied desktop schemes that come with Windows, and wonder about the colour sense of the people who created them. And no, I am NOT colour blind, I have passed the requisite tests with flying colours (pardon the pun). But, for some reason, my desktop evokes all kinds of comments from people who see it. What has this to do with fishkeeping? I shall now explain.

The February 2004 edition of Practical Fishkeeping featured, on pages 4 to 8, an article covering the reasons why fishes in an aquarium might be behaving aggressively. It covered such matters as being kept outside of their preferred temperature range (citing experiments which show that Convict Cichlids become more markedly aggressive if the temperature is increased from 26°C to 30°C), and a number of other environmental factors. One surprising correlation that was reproduced time and again was a correlation between fish aggression and the colour of the decor. Fishes kept in red, yellow or white containers were, in laboratory experiments, found to be far more likely to exhibit aggression than fishes kept in green containers. Green is, of course, the colour of aquatic vegetation, and so fishes are more likely to exhibit natural behaviour if kept in predominantly green surroundings. Green is, indeed, calming for fishes to experience: vegetation usually equals shelter, a place to hide from predators and possibly a source of tasty titbits to eat too, and thus fishes are likely to feel secure in predominantly green surroundings. At least, this is the case with the majority of freshwater fish species: it would be interesting to see which colour proved to be most calming for marine coral reef fishes (I suspect a relatively deep shade of blue would prove to be calming for them).

However, this does not only apply to fishes. Any land animals that inhabit a predominantly green environment (e.g., lush grasslands, forests) are also likely to feel more secure in captivity if their quarters are predominantly decorated with green colours. And, it was while at school that I was informed by one of my teachers of an interesting experiment that had been conducted by educational psychologists, in which predominantly green decor and a green blackboard had a measureable positive effect upon classroom performance and learning. This no doubt reflects our evolutionary ancestry, descended as we are from forest apes. Taking this on board, I set about creating a nice green desktop colour scheme for my PC, and since doing so, I have found that my own productivity has increased measureably. First of all, white text on a green background is relaxing to view for long periods of time, far more so than black text on a stark white background. Furthermore, just as spending time surrounded by lush vegetation in a forest is relaxing for me (again no doubt an atavistic remnant of evolutionary history rising to the surface), working on what might otherwise prove stressful projects is much more relaxing against a green background. My endurance before the computer screen is considerably greater when I am looking at a green desktop, and my applications all have green backgrounds. There is no way on earth that I could stand to look at a stark white screen for eight hours at a stretch, but with a suitably chosen palette of leafy green colours on my desktop, I can debug code and write articles for the Board for hours if I so choose, without feeling major eye strain.

However, this notion, eminently sensible as it is, seems to be completely lost upon most of the people who view my desktop. "How do you work in front of that?" is the typical comment I receive. I shall dwell but briefly on the irony that many of the people who ask me how I manage to function in front of a green desktop complain of eyestrain if they sit in front of a PC monitor for too long. This is probably yet another manifestation of the herd tendency that Aldous Huxley dwelt upon in Brave New World, and of course, we all know what good following the herd does for all too many lemmings, don't we?

This is probably another reason why my Pandas are so happy. They have lush greenery in abundance to frolic amongst. Carpets of Java Moss on the bogwood arch, another mound of Java Moss on the bogwood boot, Java Ferns sprouting at odd angles hither and thither, an Amaxon Swordplant in the centre of the aquarium, and a collection of Cabomba stems here and there too, all provide my Pandas and their Characin companions with a verdant underwater forest to explore. No doubt they too would start to feel decidedly ill if I dumped them in a container full of stark, bleached whites, or garish reds and yellows. Let's face it, Corydoras have been around in their present form for around 50 million years, and for most of that time, I'm willing to bet that they shared their watery home with aquatic vegetation in abundance. Just as our ancestors did for most of the 2 million years that hominid apes have been a distinct taxonomic group. I'm even willing to bet that the reason many people find modern art so objectionable is that it's displayed in stark white rooms flooded with light from flourescent tubes with bad spectral outputs. Standard office fluorescents are notorious for their spectral gaps, which is why photographers brought up on 35mm film (like me) absolutely loathe photographing anything under fluorescent light in a building. Want to see what you look with B-movie alien green skin? In the days before Adobe PhotoShop, the way to achieve this end was to set up a 35mm film camera on a tripod, and take a photograph of yourself (using the time delay function on the camera, and no flashgun) under the typical bad office fluorescent light. The resulting colour casts (particularly on human skin) are enough to make the typical old school photographer wince. And yet, this is the kind of environment that all too many human beings have to work in. Perhaps if more office buildings were lit with lighting systems that corresponded better to natural daylight, and all those stark white panels were painted in leafy greens, the level of violence recorded by law enforcement agencies would start to drop noticeably.

For some reason, that experiment by educational psychologists never caught on. Probably considered too expensive to redecorate schools in calming leafy green wall colours, let alone replace all those old blackboards with new green ones. But my Panda Corys and mixed Characins aren't the only ones to feel the benefits of green scenery - when I fire up the PC and write another of my new Board topics, I can do so without feeling eyestrain for long periods of time, and debugging code is a LOT easier when you're not looking away every 15 minutes and seeing spots before your eyes. And in case you're thinking I'm out on a limb with this one, I'm in good company - one other lateral thinker who appreciated ideas like this (and how I lament his passing) was the astronomer Carl Sagan. I bet if he was still alive, he'd have a green desktop ...



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Thank you all for your replies it could turn out to a very worthwhile topic where we all learn some thing. From possibly the oldest regular member I am always willing to learn its good brain food.

Calilasseia

Would you please re post "Green Is So Relaxing" in this thread as it will create more a thought provoking topic.

Regards Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

In the case of Cichlids, some interesting research was performed. Cichlids can effectively use the level of pollutants in the water to 'fine-tune' their perceptions of how many competitors there are in an aquarium. If they are placed in pristine water, and then the pollutant levels rise, they start looking around for competitors to eiliminate. However, if the pollutant levels rise above a certain threshold, they start to reduce their aggression. The reasoning they seem to adopt is that moderately climbing pollutants equals a small number of competitors that they can kill off without too much personal risk. Once a certain threshold is reached, however, they start to think "hang on, there's a whole army in here, can't take that lot on all on my own" and so the aggression levels actually start to drop. Trouble is, though, if the pollutants reach those levels, you'll be looking at fairly sick fish in fairly short order before too long. This was noted particularly in Convict Cichlids, as cited by Dr Ashley Ward in an article entitled Fish In Their Element in the February 2004 edition of Practical Fishkeeping. Furthermore, Dr Ward noted that the predominant colour of the décor can have an effect too: put Convicts in containers that are primarily white, yellow or red and they become more aggressive. In blue or black containers, they are considerably calmer, but the best colour of all is green (surprise, surprise - I wrote an article entitled Green Is So Relaxing on this very subject about a year ago!). Also, elevated temperatures that are coupled to breeding behaviour for numerous fish species also heighten aggression if that is coupled to reproductive behaviour (yes, the Convicts were the 'guinea pigs' for this again).

In short, the number of factors that contribute to a particular fish's aggression levels (even if one ignores individual personality differences for a moment) is considerable. Add in personality differences too, and it should come as no surprise to find that there is quite a spectrum of responses that extend out from the 'norm' as defined in numerous aquarium textbooks.

I have even noticed factors of this kind operating with Lemon Tetras. All the textbooks refer to them as archetypal "peaceful shoaling Characins". Ha ha ha. I guess the authors have never watched the males setting up landmarks in an aquarium and 'jousting' with each other - which mine have been doing now for the best part of 10 years. Jase101 recently reported that his Black Phantom Tetras spawned in his community aquarium (join the club Jase!) and he too noted that the males would break off for 'jousting' sessions with each other in between pursuing the females. And as for Beckford's Pencil Fish, well, mine behave more like Mbuna at times than Characins!

If anyone wants me to repost the Green Is So Relaxing article, I'll do so. Those who missed it first time round may find it intriguing


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

The perfect example for sexes/aggression
The guppy.

If you keep 2 tanks of guppys, 1 tank males, one
tank females.. You will see little aggression.
Soon as you mix the 2 fights begin.. You will see the males fighting for a pecking order. One or two guppies will be Alpha Males.. The males will fight over the females. On occasion you will see one male, kill all the other males. Alot of cichlids will behave this way also.

Keith mentioned the word ENVIRONMENT.
ENVIRONMENT = swimming space, water quality, tankmates, availability of food, hiding spots available.

OSCARS
If nitrates are too high in the tank, that will tell oscar
that his tank is overcrowded, he will start killing other fish. So other fish may be affected by water quality also ?

Males vs/ Female - aggression
I think in general the male of most species will be more aggressive then the female, with the exception of a female guarding a nest or young.

Individual personalities - some gouramis are very peaceful, others can terrorize your tank. Same goes for Angelfish, and guppys even. The species of fish can be a good indicator of aggression, but sometimes not. There are exceptions to every rule.

Regular feedings may help. When food is scarce, then food becomes available, a fight may start.

RTBS are classified as 'semi-aggressive' and most of us cannot tell the males and females apart. If you have a peaceful RTBS then enjoy it

Also if it helps I mentioned my buddy Adam and his 2 sharks in the other post. Their environment is overcrowded and the water quality not great, and a minimum of hiding spots. There were 4 sharks once so one of them is killing the others.
The 2 that are left fight with each other alot. All the guppys were killed, the gouramis, plecos and barbs are all left alone far as I can tell. If it helps Keith I will ask him some questions, as well as his brother Dave, who has kept more sharks in a larger community tank for a longer period of time.

The Amazon Nut...

[font color="#000080"]I know that overstocking can cause aggressiveness in some fish,also water temp can in some cases. I would like to add that sometimes it is just the fishy's personality. Once I introduced three mollies into my tank, I was nowhere NEAR overstocking and my temp was right around 65 f, however two of the mollies (my pure white on and my dalmatiany one) almost immediately started harrassing all of the other fish and even each other. I had to seperate them about two hours after I put them in because they were damaging the other fish. They were both females, but my male mollie (all black) was a very peaceful soul so I kept him in and to this day I have no problems with him. I took the girls back from whence they came and the store clerk was kind enough to let me return them. [/font]