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Katieb : I don't want to pick a fight or throw oil on a fire but may I kindly quote you on some of your initial posts.

Post #570 :
A trio of clown loaches require about 125 gal. They get over 14" long ( snipped out not related stuff about corys )

Post #572 :
A fish that is not kept in a tank that gives it the proper space will stunt and die. Stunting is when internal organs continue to grow but the skeleton and epidermis do not. Its obviously not fun for the fish.

That is specifically why I argued with you to start with because, IMHO, it's not factual, nor corretly put. On the other hand I need to do the following :

Katieb, please accept my appologies for coming down on you in a rather harsh way. It was uncalled for and I should have kept my cool when I replied to you in the other thread. I feel that I owed you a public appology, and that is what I am doing now. Hope you will forgive me.

Sneaky : If I may suggest a different approach, the answer to the question " Can I keep CLs in a 46 gal ? " should be " YES - BUT... " Makes all the difference in the world to me. Furthermore, a mention that CLs are very slow growers and live up to 50 years might be required here, don't you think ?

No hard feelings, really.

Sponge


Last edited by Sponge_Bob at 20-Dec-2005 07:21

I think it would be smart to remember that there are two kinds of people in the "petkeeping" hobby...

1) Those that take on the full commitment of bringing a pet into their lives and making it a full-blown member of their own family.

2) Those that take on the commitment of bringing a pet into their lives and keeping it as a pet.

I think we all are familiar with the difference between these people, but the important thing is to remember that there is a difference in the first place.

L.

Reun : You are 100% right. Same crapola in Canada. Many if not all LFS will sell you anything you ask for and will not make sure you know what you are getting into. Check these lil' REAL stories :

I am starting out with fish keeping. I have a small 10gal tank that I bought at Walmart for peanuts. Cheap as heck. I go to the LFS and ask the clerk how many goldies I can keep in there. Answer : 5 or 6. Not knowing better, I bought 5 fancy fan tail goldies.

Another time, in another LFS, I want another fish to go with my fan tails. So I tell the clerk that I have a 10 gal. and 5 fan tail. He sells me a KOI ! Again, not knowing better, I bought it. Killed it 2 weeks later after he injured my blackmoor by ramming into it.

Saw and heard a clerk ( friend of mine ) say that the water of the client's aquarium was ok when the test revealed at ammonia and nitrites. Asked him why he lied. He said, that this customer is an idiot and a waste of time. He did not feel like explaining the problem.

I could go on and on with those. I visit my LFS on a weekly basis. It's true that some people are dumb but it's plain wrong to misinform the customer on purpose. So just like you, I read my read-end off to learn and also learn a few things from this guy at the LFS. Also thought him a thing or 2. I only deal with him now. All the others are plain liars or not qualified to work there and advise ppl.

It's a reality that we have to compose with and we have to rely often on ourselves to find answers in books or on the web. And even there, I double / triple check the info I get to make sure it valid.

Sad... real sad.

Sponge
PS : Sir, this is in NO WAY directed at you.

LittleCatJoe : What are you implying ? Careful not to slip on that banana peel you dropped in here.

:88)

Last edited by Sponge_Bob at 19-Dec-2005 17:52

lol...the heated arguement in here cracks me up.

bottom line is, no one in here has said stunting fish is a good thing. also, no one in here has said that its ok to keep an oscar in a 10 gallon till it dies.

the OP brought up this thread to point out exactly what is happening...people dont ask questions, all they do is yell and holler about "you will stunt it!!!!"...

I think we can all agree on one thing...a baby oscar well cared for in a 10 gallon is fine...the same as when it is partially grown it will be ok in a 50 gallon...you must adapt to the fishes size.

now, on the subject of ethics, if a fish should be treated like a child/person, or be treated like a pet without feelings...meh, thats always up for debate.

i think in general, people like me that are new to the hobby but really CARE about their fish, would never consider stunting a fish, if only the owners,clerks,and friends we got the fish from cared enough to say that it isnt ok to keep that in that small of tank.

sir, you are right, i have witnessed people in those stores who WONT listen to reason, i would say that on average though, the majority of people looking at setting up an aquarium would like to have healthy fish and care if the fish would be happy or not.

if i ever worked at a pet store and someone told me that they were going to keep a large fish in a small tank and that they had been told that the fish would only grow as big as the tank, i would keep some flyers with research info on what happens to stunted fish, rather than argue with them, provide them with info and let them decide once they have all the facts.

again, just my two cents. now, i gotta get outta here, my hairs on fire...

I agree. Nick's got the right idea. In many cases, customers just don't care, and it's not up to us employees to persuade them if their so adamant that they won't even listen. I'd rather, you know, just punch them in the face.

So one must assume that they are not dealing with mentally deprived people and treat them accordingly. A lil note that the fish will eventually outgrow the tank they plan on is more than enough. The way some people take this "stunting" thing to extremes is simply discouraging people from starting this wonderful hobby.

Yay! Thats the idea!

I have 2 clown loaches in a 26 gallon tank. I'd bet if people didn't know me when I said that, I'd get a whole bunch of tut tut replies telling me that its cruel. These fish are so tiny I'd almost be happy to pop them in a 10 for a while.
Its funny you know, i've been here for years and I still don't feel comfortable saying straight out "I've got a 26 with 2 cls and..." I always have to qualify my decision to do so with the story behind it and the fact that i'm upgrading. There is no pressing urgency to upgrade, but i feel guilty anyway.

If i ever got a goldfish there is NO WAY I'd tell anyone. Its not that the fish would be in substandard conditions, its just that the idea here is that you start with a minimum 55 gallon from the purchase of the fish. a goldfish can quite happily start life in a 10 gallon as far as i'm concerned, providing it is moved up regularly (as necessary)


So, recap and a few extra questions.

*Nobody is suggesting that stunting is acceptable

*Fish Shop employees should attempt to give at least the critical info regarding size and future tank requirements (boss permitting)

*General concensus is that organs do not grow faster than the fish causing little aquatic explosions at 3am, but other types of organ damage can occur.


OK, Questions:

*State the definition of STUNTING. I have an idea of what it ,means to me, but I want to know what it means to others. Is it like dropsy, not a thing in and of itself, but a sign of other problems?

*Is it right to blame the employees and not the store owners? I would expect the store owner to come down hard on employees losing sales (even if its the right thing to do from a welfare standpoint) so perhaps blaming the employees is not really very fair.

*Do you find that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar?
What approach gets people to listen to you with regards to busting this myth? I don't want to gloss over the issue, but I find talking at people not that effective either.


I'm impressed that you are all playing reasonably nicely Careful with personal attacks though, go for the idea or the concept, not the individual

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Yes actually Sponge, I read everything very carefully word for word prior to posting and read YOUR post twice.

What I want to know, is you post this topic titled
"Stunting Myth vs Reality", and you say stunting is an urban myth, but then describe ways in which fish suffer from stunting.
Why? It seems almost to me that you yourself are talking a whole lot of double speak, and not actually answering the question.

1) IS Stunting an "Urban Myth" as you say? IF not, what support do you have for this?

2) What do you mean when you say "Stunted". A fish that grows to 10 inches average, and reachs 9 in a large enough tank, isnt stunted, its just below average.
A fish that grows to 10 inches average that is 2 inches after 10 years, isnt below average - something is seriously wrong.

3) You say Stunting doesnt cause death directly - well, when a shrapnel bomb is dropped, it doesnt cause death directly either - thousands of metal shards flying out cause death. IF one of these shards wounds someone, and then 6 days later they die of infection due to that wound, is that not DIRECT consequences of the original bomb dropping in the first place?
If a stunted fish develops a rare tumor not often found in fish, couldnt you say that it is likely that the DIRECT consequence of stunting was this fishes tumor and eventual death?

And Back to my original Point - when someone comes into a forum and asks "can a clown loach go in a 46g tank", the resounding answer should be NO - UNLESS. The unless is the very specific ways in which you could very well keep a clown loach in a 46g tank. For example, if you plan to keep the fish only until it grows too large for the tank, which in this case could be several years. The other condition of course would be, Is the person, in any form of reality, ever going to, intend to, plan to, upgrade from this size tank to a larger more suitable home when said fish grow large enough to require such. If the answer to this is no, then the answer to keeping this fish should also be no.
When you give a simple answer such as yes,or no, without actually providing the appropriate qualifications under which this answer is appropriate, it is misleading, and can result in possible failure of the aquariast, or even worse, the fishes death due to maltreatment.
This is why the internet, while a wonderful source of information and facts and people, is so misleading. Even simple answers can be mistaken easily, since humans are so strongly social creatures, we require certain verbal, physical, and social cues to draw upon to come to conclusions. The internet does not allow for that, and that is why so many people become so outraged for no reason. One has to be very careful, and should at least try to take the time to explain things fully, so that people can gather at least most of what they mean- even though this in itself is essentially flawed as well. Some will still misread, others become outraged, and some not understand at all.
Ambiquities can be difficult to deal with, and in some cases, for a poor pet, can mean fatal results.



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"And Back to my original Point - when someone comes into a forum and asks "can a clown loach go in a 46g tank", the resounding answer should be NO - UNLESS. The unless is the very specific ways in which you could very well keep a clown loach in a 46g tank. For example, if you plan to keep the fish only until it grows too large for the tank, which in this case could be several years. The other condition of course would be, Is the person, in any form of reality, ever going to, intend to, plan to, upgrade from this size tank to a larger more suitable home when said fish grow large enough to require such. If the answer to this is no, then the answer to keeping this fish should also be no. "

This is what I was saying in the other thread.

1) I believe stunting is real. No, I dont think the fish's organs are going to explode or some nonsense like that. However I do believe that it plays a role in fish death, along with bad water quality and other problems. Where there is stunting there are usually other problems, all of which play a part in shorter fish lifespans.

2) I think it is fine that some people keep baby fish in smaller tanks...only if they realize that a bigger tank will be needed and be able to know when that is.

If a person buys a fish that will get large and has no intention of upgrading, then that is something I cannot support.

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

I think you may have it a bit jumbled Katie (or perhaps just jumbled your phrasing?). If you look at the primary cause of stunting, being water quality issues, then the flow of events is bad water quality > stunting > death.

If i had a 55 gallon and stuffed it full of fantails, it wouldn't matter that the tank size was adequate, the fish would still not grow to their maximum potential.
Same if you reverse it, if i had a goldfish in a 10 gallon-sized mesh container in the middle of a pond, it would likely grow despite the phisical size constrains because the water was of a higher quality. Granted it would be weak from lack of appropriate exercise, but it would be of a decent size.

Its not so much the tank size thats the issue, its the fact that a tank of that size cannot handle the waste (and in some cases the exercise requirements) of the fish. Yes, in extreme cases i'll bet that the physical size of the tank has a role to play, like if the fish itself cannot turn around etc, but by that stage there is probably already damage been done.

EDIT: I should point out that when I am referring to water quality, I am thinking more along the lines of things that cannot be measured that affect growth (although measurable things do have an effect). If you remove the larger fish from a spawn the smaller ones get a chance to catch up etc, i'd imagine the same chemicals that affect growth in that situation will also affect growth at later stages of life.

Last edited by Callatya at 19-Dec-2005 21:48

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Sneaky ? What Cup said. Did you actually take time to read the entire thread before posting. I'm sure you read it too fast and got the wrong impression. Believe me, no one is promotting stunting fish in here. I'd be the first one to come down hard on 'em with cold hard FACTS.

On the other hand, kudos to you for standing tall and screaming out your outrage at stunting !

Cheers my fellow crazy cannuk !

Sponge

Calla : Excellent posts ! Kudos !

Sneaky : Oh my friend... seems like you misunderstood me or I was not clear enough. Let me take the blame and explain my thoughts more clearly.

Stunting does exist but not as it is often depicted by some people. What I call "urban legend" is those horrifying stories that internal organs explode from internal lack of space, or that if you don't give a fish a tank that will suit it's full adult size, you will stunt it ! Stunting, as I understand it, is failure to provide a fish of size X an adequate size Y tank for it to grow. Example : 8" Oscar in a 25 gal tank. It will fit in and probably survive for a while, given proper care and maintenance. On the other hand, it will be stunt eg. will stop growing and problems will occur. What problems ? Deformities and illness.

It's all about plain common sense. We all know that a gold fish for instance is not to be put in a bowl. On the other hand, saying that a 1 inch goldie requires 35 gal tank otherwise you will stunt it is plain illogical, not based on ANY scientific facts. It's based on the urban legend that one MUST provide a tank that will accomodate the full adult size of the fish RIGHT OFF THE BAT. Pure non-sense and I have proofs ( personnal experience )to back it up. If you still don't understand what I am trying to say, please read CALLA's posts. Her posts are better written than mine but expresses the same thing.

Like I said in numerous thread, my first language is not english so I do my best to express myself with the little knowledge and understanding of the language. That is why some of my phrases might look a bit akward in terms of phrase structure. It is not from lack of good will though. Just lack of better knowledge.

I trully hope I answered your question and that my thoughts are more clear to you now. If not, please ask me again and I will try again.

Kind regards,

Sponge

Edit notes : Gawd I can't spell !


Last edited by Sponge_Bob at 20-Dec-2005 07:10

"Stunting, as I understand it, is failure to provide a fish of size X an adequate size Y tank for it to grow. Example : 8" Oscar in a 25 gal tank. It will fit in and probably survive for a while, given proper care and maintenance. On the other hand, it will be stunt eg. will stop growing and problems will occur. What problems ? Deformities and illness."

Erm, thats always been my understanding of stunting. Maybe I havent been as clear as thought.

"Post #572 :
A fish that is not kept in a tank that gives it the proper space will stunt and die. Stunting is when internal organs continue to grow but the skeleton and epidermis do not. Its obviously not fun for the fish.

That is specifically why I argued with you to start with because, IMHO, it's not factual, nor corretly put. On the other hand I need to do the following :"

Then maybe you could direct me to some sources that explain where my info is false. I am not saying the fish will explode or something outrageous. What I am saying Is that an improperly housed fish will not grow properly which will effect the growth of the organs. I was always under the impression that organs continued to grow even after the skeleton stopped.

"Post #570 :
A trio of clown loaches require about 125 gal. They get over 14" long ( snipped out not related stuff about corys )"

A full grown trio does require upwards of 100 gallons. The poster who asked about them did not, at the time, talk about any future plans for the loaches and I wanted to make sure he/she knew their future needs. There is nothing wrong with making sure someone is prepared for what a fish needs, even if it isn't immediate. Im not sure why this is such an issue for you.

I accept your apology.

Calla,

Awesome post as usual.

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

"I was always under the impression that organs continued to grow even after the skeleton stopped."

Depends on which organs. Generally, only those mechanisms affiliated with the nervous/skeletal region will outgrow usability. Most internal organs, however, will not.

I have always heard that the most commonly affected
organs that are affected due to stunting are
the kidneys and liver.
Doing online searches, I found literally hundreds of
articles about the continuation of organ growth and
organ deformities due to stunting, as well as skeletal and skull issues due to stunting.
I found not one article that argued otherwise, and several were by biologists working both with wild fish populations and captive populations.

Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
http://games.atari.com
Http://www.myleague.com/yahtgames

The length of the diagonal distance in a 20G high is 32" from front bottom corner to top back corner. Oh the possibilities .

[font color="#C00000"]Keep it civil with no flaming....you can debate without a flame war. "Calling people out" is not appropriate and wont be tolerated.[/font]

Actually some fish do have the ability to adjust to small tanks, thats why goldfish are so popular. When I was in St.Thomas someone had a koi pond and one of them was at least 2 ft or bigger. It didnt happen overnight either. Yes, when contemplating a tank you should know that fish get big, but if you get them small, they will stay small for awhile. I.E. with the clown loaches. I'd hope that within 50 yrs one would update their tank. Fish can adjust easily, but yes, when they start into adulthood and begain to grow they should be put into larger tanks. I hope I am not just babbeling....

Inky

I think the adjusting you are referring to may well be what we are referring to as stunting. Can you clarify a bit?

Sneaky, can you please link some of the articles for us? that would be interesting. I would very much like to know what type of growth the skeleton undergoes and how much that has to do with physical constraints. Is there an article or study that you have found that explores this topic?
I find it most interesting that the most commonly affected organs are those designed to process waste matter. I suppose its not suprising, but its definately interesting.

Also, is there a behaviour difference in those fish that are stunted early and those stunted late? possibly in fast-growing fish and slow-growing fish? I have not seen a behaviour difference in fish stunted early, but I have not been exposed to many fish stunted late, or naturally aggressive fish, so this would also be intersting to explore. From my experience, I would not agree with the generalisation that stunting makes the fish more aggressive, at least not any moreso than a full sized fish of that species would be at that age. Are people possibly mistaking frustration at confinement and lack of appropriate territory for general aggression?
Most large stunted fish I have seen are in with other large stunted fish, maybe this is where that observation comes from?


And pizpot, I've often considered if you could have an in-wall tank about 5cm wide and incredibly tall and wide, and pop discus in there... all facing the same direction. Of course you'd have to shunt them back to the beginning every now and again... The OH suggested CD spindles. *sigh* that wouldn't work cause they have the spikey thing in the middle! duh!

Last edited by Callatya at 28-Dec-2005 13:46

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

"Second hand fish ? What are you talking about ? What do you think you buy from singapour if not second hand fish by definition. I'm being cynical a bit because what you called "second hand" fish are sold by the thousands around the world each day. Who would want to buy one ? Me and I did so often enough with no problems, ethical or whatnot."

I'm pretty sure Nick was being sarcastic right thur.