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Ackkkk

*wonders where there will be an aquarium big enough for those*

Yipes




[hr width='40%'][font color="#000080"]"I know that you are something special, To you I'd be always faithful
I want to be what you always needed, Then I hope you'll see the heart in me"[/font]

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Those guys have actually been around for quite some time now, unfortunately.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

First we had Flowerhorns, now we have this:

Red Tail And Tiger Shovelnose Hybrid

This thing is going to be a Jurassic-era monster. Imagine the size of aquarium it'll need??? Read and be very afraid ....

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Guppyliove, I'll explain my viewpoint, and hopefully this won't result in you getting your hackles up.

I would prefer it if some of the more outlandish varieties of goldfish in existence today had not been created. Principally from the standpoint of the fish. But, they have, and turning the clock back is going to be difficult to put it mildly. So, since these fish exist, and there is a big demand for them in the Far East (where they have a vastly different aesthetic than in the West), one should strive to see that at least they're well looked after. Which, in the case of any you keep, is probably the case.

My issue isn't with the fish themselves, principally because they were't given a choice in the matter. My issue is with humans. Now, Comets and Shubinkins I'm happy with, because in their case, the mutations aren't deleterious: these fishes could survive in the wild. Comets especially - ever seen how fast they can swim? And while the blue colour of some Shubunkins would put them at a disadvantage in certain biotopes, there are quite a few naturally blue fish in existence, and being blue doesn't disadvantage them in their homes, so tbe same reasoning could apply to the Shubunkins in the right setting. And, a good show specimen of a Veiltail Oranda, despite the spherical body and the head growths, is actually quite a show-stopper to look at. But sometimes I still shake my head at the aesthetic sense that led to some varieties such as Pom-Poms.

But, they're here, and they're going to continue to be around becausse of the aforementioned big demand. Therefore one should strive to make their lives as happy as possible. And if you do that, then good on you. But it still doesn't stop me from wishing that the creators of these varieties had stopped and paused for a moment to ask if it was right to bring them into the world. But this opens up a philosophical can of worms that even the likes of Kant or Socrates would probably find daunting.

Hope this helps.



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Ligers are so huge because they are a cross between s male tiger and a female lion (or maybe it's the other way around, but whatever). In tigers, the horomone that stops growth is passed on only from the female, and in tigers it's only passed on in the male. Unfortunately for the liger, that means that they do not get the horomone that stops them from growing. That means that they grow to enormous, unnatural sizes as that figure shows, and they are often deformed and suffer health problems from their size.

And because people know that now, it's a shame that they are still being bred when they have to suffer for their entire adult life. They are horrendous creatures.

Tigons, on the other hand, (from a male lion and female tiger) get the growth-stopping horomone and can lead fairly normal lives, but it still disappointing that people find the need to breed them when tigers on the brink of extinction.





Last edited by Cory Addict at 23-Feb-2005 22:54

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

The thing is that it just isn't in our place to decide what should be sold and what shouldn't. If the people want to buy a fish, they have a right to buy the fish. Even if guppylove likes a fish that we might find unsightly, she has a right to enjoy and keep them. Remember that some of you that keep eels, stingrays, and other less than orthadox fish are in the same position. I could rant about how you are taking rare fish from the enviornment and make many points on how you shouldn't keep them. But, in the end, it is still your decision to keep them.

Now, if you really think about it, mutant goldfish probably did alot for the hobby. Personally, I don't like them, but you have to look at the big picture. They attract new fish keepers more so that, say, a pleco. This leads to more fish enthusiasts and a bigger market for fish.

"If the people want to buy a fish, they have a right to buy the fish."

I find this ethic disturbing. Sometimes the fish people want to buy have serious physiological problems... swimbladder problems... I have heard of blood parrots with no tails! If people wanted frogs with three legs, would I breed frogs with three legs or disturb the frog embryo such that it produces a third leg? I hope not!

If we put this ethic of "if someone wants to pay money for it, then go for it" towards other things than fish, I'm sure you can see how it could extend in some terrible directions... if not, think about child pornography. Where are you going to let exploitation stop?

I don't mean for this to be a personal attack. I just wanted to point out a problem with your reasoning.

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Your taking what I just said, putting it out of context, and then streaching it as far as you could go. I am not talking about swimbladers or 3 legs, I'm talking about small things like bubble eyes. Goldfish have been produced like this for a long time. Fancy goldfish have a good hance to have a nice life, despite their condition.

Now you bring up child pornography. There is a very big difference between a gold fish and a child. Anyone who says otherwise has issues to deal with. Just because a society allows a people to buy deformed goldfish, doesn't mean this society is going to spiral down and loose all its ethics.

You're not hearing what I say. Swimbladders are certainly an issue with fancy goldfish, as just about everyone who has owned a fancy goldfish should know. There are fancy goldfish all the time that can't hardly swim because they are stuck at the top or bottom of the tank thanks to swimbladders that can barely function. You said that if people will buy it, then who are we to say it is wrong. Now, if we add something into that sentence to restrain it, that's fine, but there are still horrible things people do, just because people will buy it, even to fish (dyeing/injecting, breeding to the point the fish can't even swim, etc)

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right now i'm complaining about the poeple not the fish. the fish have no choice in the mater any way. the people are irresponsible and greedy. stuff like breeding a natural color variation is ok as long as it doesn't disturb the fish. (any of you from the northeastern us know what i mean with blue and white lobsters.) when you breed extra limbs etc., it is a burdon for the fish. the fish don't ask to be this way so it is the persons fault who made them this way. ]:|

what happened to talking about the catfish? what if it gets into the wild? that can't be good for native species.:#(

edit: spell check please?

Last edited by weird22person at 23-Feb-2005 12:20

20 Gallon Long:
Aquaclear 300
2 Bolivian Rams, Mikrogeophagus altispinosus: Gumby and Pokey

Good point on the catfish. Surely if irresponsible hobbyists get ahold of this, decide they can't keep it when it gets to be a foot long, and toss it in the local river, the results could be catastrophic.

And yes, I am certainly complaining about the people who make fish with serious problems. The fish themselves can't help it.

><>

We kinda got sidetracked with the whole goldfish thing, and we already made one member leave over this. Let's just get back to the catfish. It doesn't look like something that would make a good pet, but I'm sure it would be good for the food industry.

Prior to the subject returning to it's original course, I must post, as I believe we're doing guppylove a great injustice here.

These goldfish have been bred for countless years by both Chinese and Japanese aristocracy, and was [and still is] regarded as an art form by true breeders. The basis for the development of these novel strains originates from a desire to advance an art form, not, as you put it, for profit. Also, this "exploitation", so to speak, is analogous to the purchase of all fish obtaining their appearances from selective breeding of any sort--whether through albinitism, veiling, or just plain old color preference [-ing]. That being said, how is selective breeding of an "orange" hued comet unlike the breeding an oranda? The nature of the cosmetics is the same--a change in genotype; a mutation, so to speak. So long as they don&#8217;t disrupt existing ecosystems and live fairly comfortable lives (arguably moreso than your &#8220;non mutated&#8221; breeds, which, of course, are), I see no reason why this venture should not be further pursued.

Answer me this; it&#8217;s okay to nab endangered and exotic species from the wild (many of them already dying from shipping alone) to meet high demand, but HO, you breed a goldfish with a cap, and the world&#8217;s gone upside down?

Furthermore, goldfish buoyancy problems are nearly always the result of aquarist ignorance. Unsuitable diets results in blockage of key organs (namely the colon, among others), preventing air from entering the admittedly oddly shaped swim bladder, as well as reported swallowing of air from the surface of the water (I personally think this theory is nonsense). This obviously has much to do with child porno, seeing as how they&#8217;re breeding those kids for leucisticism, amirite?. :-/

Pardon me for having a bad day and not hesitating to say something that I mean, but can be taken the wrong way. That is my own personal way of thinking through if something is ethical or not, and the way I see it, you can use the same logic and apply it to "justify" some pretty horrible things. Thread asked for opinions, so I gave mine, which happen to be pretty strong in this case. Sorry if I offended anyone, but that remains my opinion.

As for food fish - depends on if they taste any good.

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guppylove will probably come back. She threatened to leave the site because some of our opinions differed from hers and perhaps she may have the impression that we were making her out to be a bad person for owning fancy goldfish. A situation like this* will happen with everyone on this site at some point in time. Please dont give up on us.

Re: Foodstuff animals. Has anybody ever baught a boneless chicken? those are supposed to taste good but I havent ever seen anyone buy one.

MAN! Ive gone WAY off subject. Sorry.

Are there any other objections to any other breeds of fish out there? We have gone on about ranchus and fancy goldfish, parrot cichlids, flowerhorns, betas and that tigerXshovelnose cat.













* Differing opinions resulting in hurt feelings

Last edited by Troy_Mclure at 23-Feb-2005 14:28

...ahem...

I interrupt this heated debate to bring you the following example of cross-bred awesomeness:

Here kitty, kitty...




NowherMan6 attached this image:

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Back in the saddle!

wot is that, a lionxtiger or a tigerxleapord?
ok i shud have looked @ the hyperlink

smilingpiranha(who isn't smiling)

Last edited by smilingpiranha at 23-Feb-2005 15:15

Its a Liger.

Apparently, they are the big cat version of a mule (cannot breed).

I tried to be polite, but to heck with it. I'm done with this site and it's goldfish bashing. Get over it! I used to love Fish Profiles, thought it was a great site and learnt a lot. But now it's changed. People like to be very self-righteous. Any of you people who complain about Fancy goldfish keep bettas? Guess what, that long flowing finnage is a pain for the fish to drag around, and is a mutation in itself. Maybe I'll be back, maybe I won't, but one thing some people on this site need to learn is to just shut up and move on if you don't have anything nice to say.

Cory, your argument was very well worded and concise. But the thing is, I wasn't looking for an argument

Im OK with hybrids but breeding an animal so it is limbless or doesnt have eyes like you see in 'fancy' goldfish isnt a very nice thing to do to a fish.

Just because theres a market for disfigured animals doesnt make it right.