FishProfiles.com Message Forums

*psst Natalie, it was lindy

I do the same as Lindy and Nat though, lots of plants (hornwort mainly) and slowly slowly on the fish, so it doesn't even register. I'm happy for it to take a few months, no rush there

I have used fishless, and it worked quite well, however it makes me nervous. The thing i find tricky is 'can i add the fish at the correct time without exposing them to residual pure ammonia while still getting them in in time to prevent bacterial dieback?'

I have a place in my heart for Cycle these days. I used to shun it as a gimmick, but after a few tests, and considering my habit of saying YES to offers of freebies and hard-to-finds without great consideration to tankspace, I needed to find a system that would allow me to be naughty without adversely affecting the fish. It is also INCREDIBLY useful for people who refuse to believe Cycling exists and demand the ability to keep fish. If I try explaining cycling they glaze over, but if i had them a bottle and say add this now,, they usually accept.
I think i almost have the Cycle cycle down to the point that I don't get a measurable spike.



Last edited by Callatya at 09-Sep-2005 21:39

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Wow, thanks folks, there were some really comprehensive answers there, nad some nicely expressed view and opinions.

I didnt honestly think anyone would have a persuasive arguement in the "for" group, calisseas answer was particularly good.Her answer in particular dealt with some of the fundamental conditions of use when using fish cycling as a useable technique.

There was one thing though, and that was that despite even the most convincing arguements there was one signifanct proviso- and that was that fish would have to be added as small, increased in size and amount gradually and done with intense observation and supervision.

My problem is that while its fine for experienced aquarists like some of us , beginners in particular will cause their fish to suffer and die primarily because they rarely have the knowledge. I myself have had issues with a large tank lately and I could choose to recycle it with fish and make it work- I probably wont it should be noted cos I consider my pets too precious to risk, but it could be done.

One comment i noted though in the arguements which i feel absolutely compelled to refute tho- it was stated that cycling fish is "natural". This is obviously total rubbish because when was a river lake or sea last cycled? 100 million years ago maybe? Basically no modern or living fish will have been subjected to any kind of natural cycling as water perameters were established thousands of years ago with only variations due to rainfall and floods etc. Natural my beeeeehind Ignorance incidentally is not only not knowing how to do it right - but also vastly underestimating the amount of people who will do it incorrectly.

( ps I know about 5 ways to cycle a tank successfully and have done so often, but as with many things we cant assume the general populace has the intelligence knowledge or patience to do it correctly.Most fish keepers will never go on a fish forum, never read a book on fishkeeping and will eventually kill their fish, so we have a responsibilty to consider the performance of the average human being.- I dont think telling them to cycle with fish and then labeling them as ignorant post fishy deaths, or blaming them for not getting it right is particularly intelligent. You have a responsibility to think about the quality of advice you give them. If the majority of people are largely unably to use fish to cycle without fatalities and suffering wouldnt it be more intelligent to offer them the safer option?)

A further question then-

While it is probably acceptable for experienced and well informed hobbyists to do it as we can manage the perimeters of water quality with greater skill , therefore avoiding fish suffering - should we really be advocating that beginners use fish cycling as a technique?

Last edited by longhairedgit at 09-Sep-2005 21:37

Last edited by longhairedgit at 09-Sep-2005 21:41

I've done both, and if done correctly both ways are effective and don't cause harm to fish.

Best way to do it IMO is to stock the tank FULL of plants, high light, CO2, correct nutrient levels, and slowly build up your fish stock. The tank and filters will eventually grow all the bacteria needed, while the plants do most of the work and you'll probably never see any ammonia or nitrites (and no nitrate either unless you dose it yourself).

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Way back in 1994, when the Panda Fun Palace™ went live for the first time, I cycled it with - wait for it - four Otocinclus. But then I knew I was going to get Otocinclus and planned the tank well in advance for them. Which is why I had the fun experience of having other customers in the LFS thinking I was mad because I was asking about intentionally growing algae in my aquarium!

Those four Otocinclus were the sole occupants for six weeks. Only then did I add my Cardinals. And the Cardinals were tiny when I added them - not much bigger than my thumbnail!

The planning stage, and subsequent patience, worked. No losses, no undue signs of stress, and to cap it all, one of those Otocinclus lived for over nine years. Yes, you read that right, over nine years. In fact the post I posted on the subject should still be available in Bottom Feeder Frenzy somewhere. In any case, it's mentioned in my Otocinclus article ("Articles" menu at top of page).

Wind the clock forward to 2004, and I decided to try fishless cycling for my Panda breeding aquarium. Again, the relevant posts should be here somewhere. Including my famous comparison of the different methods, where I compared the difference between dumping a pile of food in all in one go, and putting in food in small amounts spread over a period as if I were actually feeding fish. I likened the first method to someone dumping a dead buffalo in one's living room, and the latter to someone putting new bacon rashers in the freezer overnight, every night. The rationale was simple: even bacteria have a finite rate of reproduction, so by building up the food sources gradually, it gave the bacteria time to catch up.

Initially, I did have some bacterial bloom problems with the fishless cycling, but these cleared up quickly. I later had a problem with blue-green algae, but again, once the plants kicked into gear and started hoovering up the nutrients, the BGA more or less died off. Haven't seen it now for at least two months.

Thanks to an emergency, I did have to put the second generation Pandas in to the new aquarium quicker than I would have liked. But, it was mostly cycled by the time they went in. And now, they've been spawning in it quite happily. Check my assorted Panda baby pics!

Both aquaria are beautiful to behold. I've just done a water change and gravel vac on them both. They Pandas in both aquaria are frolicking about like mad. Just wish I had a web cam to show you all the fun and games!

The point I'm making here is that whatever cycling method you choose, provided it is done with care, and a certain amount of planning and patience are exercised at the beginning, the end result can be glorious to behold. I have two wonderful miniature "slices of the Amazon" in my living room now, and they're a joy to look at. Took some work getting there mind, but boy, was it worth the effort!

Some of you might like this piece of polemic on my part. I make no apologies for courting controversy in this article, but since Adam saw fit to make it a permanent feature of the site, he must have agreed with it too!

An Aquarium Is Not A TV

Go read. It'll hopefully prove informative and amusing to those of you who haven't seen it before!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I have always done my cycling with fish, and I see no reason to quit. Like Callatya, I add fish very slowly so that while cycling, the ammonia and nitrite levels are barely detectable. I do not think think the fish are "suffering" as you so kindly put it - They eat well, show vibrant colors, and in some cases have even shown courtship behavior.

With the levels as low as they were when cycling, I believe the toxins would have been at most a minor annoyance for the fish. I also always use live plants when cycling as well, which break down much of the toxins and also introduce a lot of bacteria.

Cycling with fish is much more natural, IMO... Temporary streams in nature do not have humans pouring in ammonia to cycle them. They don't get "cycled" till the fish get there.

For you to say that hobbyists who use fish to cycle their tanks are abusing their fish is pretty ignorant. You must not know how to do it right, because I can assure you my fish are never "suffering".

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Well,

This is a tough topic.

I only have 2 tanks so far (20 and 29) with a third one on the way (125).

What I did so far:

29 – I used Bio Spira for a week and then added 6 danios, no losses.
20 – I set up the tank with quite a few plants and added 2 platies one week later, no losses so far (1 week of fish)

125 – I will set it up and might add fish right away, if I am able to get them (maybe 8 rasboras) about 2 weeks earlier and quarantine them in the 20. I will never add fish directly to the big guy as I am afraid they might be sick and I would get a disease in it. The tank will be heavily planted from the get go.

So for me, there are distinctions on cycling. If the tank is large enough, sufficiently planted, and the fish load is small, then adding them right away is most certainly ok. That, at least, is my opinion.

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 09-Sep-2005 18:33

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think fish cycling is cruel as it does cause fish unecassary suffereing. In my first tank I tried to cycle the tank with 2 danios. I did not add any more fish and I did weekly water changes which is what they told me to do. About a week later nitrite went to 0.25 from 0 and both danios died. Explain this.... They suffered death when they shouldn't of had to. It can also cause fish ammonia burns on their gills which causes them permenant trouble breathing.:#(

Normally I fishless cycled but the only place that sold pure ammonia no longer carries it. Really I've been to every possible store in a 50mile radius. They just don't have suitable ammonia. Cycling the 90g with fish food would have taken alot of food and made quite a mess and I doubt my boyfriend would have agreed with the smell of letting a shrimp rot in the tank. When I do cycle with fish I just add the hardiest of the fish I want to keep in the tank eventually and keep the ammonia below 1ppm. I see no point in adding hardy fish I don't even want and letting the ammonia reach high amounts. I haven't noticed a huge different in cycling time by keeping the ammonia low and I know from fishless cycling that too high of ammonia can cause alot more problems than too low.

To cycle my 55g I did a fishless. IMO/E it was relatively quick and effective. At the time I wasn't even exactly sure what fish were going in there, so a fishless was what I needed. I didn't have any leftover fish to deal with either. As for my smaller tanks, I handled things a little differently. When I set up my 5g I simply scooped out a bit of gravel from the already well established 55g and used that as my substrate. I filled the 5g with water from the 55g as well. The rest of my tanks (ranging from 1g to 2.5g) are betta tanks, so I just set them up and put the fish in. I change the water 100% every week, so ammonia doesn't even show up on the tests.

Any future tanks that I own (5g+) I will definitely fishless cycle, or seed from an already established tank. To me, there just isn't any other way

I have always placed fish in uncycled tanks. I dont go out of my way to buy "hardy cycling fish". I dont overstock the tank, infact I add only a couple of fish every few weeks. I find doing it this way I never get any off the chart ammonia or nitrite readings. I dont even get readings that register on my tests.

Not everyone in the hobby (especially newbies) have the patience to do this though, and often times people are not told of the potential problems from the retailer they purchase their tanks from.

To those who can not stock their tanks slowly, and have the knowledge, I would definately recommend fishless cycling. Lets face it though, there are alot of people who would not listen to us about the best method.

I dont think my method is inhumane and I do not feel guilty for it either. Each to their own.

Last edited by Lindy at 09-Sep-2005 08:36

---

Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.