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JQW

It would be nice to be able to stock fish at different sizes, but remember, thats a lot of space. Lets say a store just carried a small, medium, and large of every fish. That would double, if not, TRIPLE, the stock of a store. Where is the stock going to get that space? They either have to add more tanks, or rid themselves of stock, and limit the variety.

ALSO, from working at fish stores, most large fish don't sell as much as their babys. Baby oscars sell like hot cakes, but adult oscars usually stay in the store for about months, usually until a worker/manager takes it home to make room for fish.

Also, most stores don't have wet tanks over 75 gallons. Ocasionally, they will have a couple "large" tanks, but the largest average I've seen was 75 gallons.

I don't worry about what they have in stock, because I know after talking to the very knowledgeable and helpful gentleman at my LFS that they can only stock what they can sell. I felt 100% confident in this store when he told me he could order anything I needed in the way of fish. they're already paying the shipping on fish with the order that the store regularly makes, so I would just pay the cost of the fish. What a deal, if I ordered the fish I was looking for on aquabid or liveaquaria I would have to pay tons of shipping, but I can get through my LFS (usually) if I just ask--without worrying about the shipping. That is awesome. This LFS has been very good to me and very helpful, I will continue to patronize tehm ever if they are a little bit higher priced than other places....doesn't matter, I make up the difference in cost in quality of service.


Last edited by crazyred at 24-Oct-2005 10:45

Last edited by crazyred at 24-Oct-2005 10:46

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

when you want a specific product that isnt on the shelves i want the lfs to really have a good go at ordering it in for me.

OH TOLEEDY!

Helpful is nice, but I'd take knowledgable. If the information is wrong, it
doesn't matter how helpful the staff was.

A sign of good staff is when you buy fish the first few questions they ask you
are; "What size tank do you have? How many fish do you have? What are they?"
They need to determine if you have room for the new fish and if it is
compatible with your other fish.

Excellent staff will also volunteer information on uncommon fish, verify that
the customer knows what they are doing, let the customer pick out individual
fish (ie for livebearers, angels, and others where each fish may look
different), and offer a health guarantee on the fish.

Robby

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I know human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully.

A store's organization is very important to me. Are all of the filters in one place, all of the heaters, all of the fish foods (one store I go to sometimes has various brands of fish foods in different places all over the store, which drives me nuts). Are the tanks clearly labeled with the species latin and common names as well as what type of salinity (and are the labels correct to what's actually in the tank)?
Staff seems to be the most important factor in a good lfs, though, probably because it's the one that most of us most often see lacking. Do the staff know where everything is and what it's called (goes for both equipment and fish)? Can they clearly explain basic tank set-up and maitenance including why and how a tank is cycled? Can they tell the difference between males and females when a customer asks them?
A staff who asks questions about their customer's tanks and fish is always comforting, and will allow them to give better advice and answer questions better. Even if a staff person does not know the answer to a question, they should know the appropriate resources to guide a customer to for good information whether it's a book, a website, or another staff member at the store.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...

A good store for me has:

-Friendly Personnel
-Educated Personnel
-Supportive Personnel
-Doesn’t try to oversell you (why don’t you get a 100G reef tank instead of a 10G QT?)
-Quality fish and plants
-Lots of different fish and different plants
-Quality merchandise
-Lots of different merchandise
-Good Prices
-Is easy to reach and parking is available
-Convenient opening hours

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK, here is one that none, or maybe one of the lfs around here has; Internet access on a monitor viewable by the public. This would be a great idea, because you could actually show the public the size and shape of adult fish. As well as the coloration and such of the adult fish. As many/most fish sold in a lfs are juvies, or adolescent fish. You would be surprised how many people look at a 2 inch juvie fish, and wonder why the lfs is selling something that is brown with one stripe down the middle of it. Not knowing that when it gets the full size of 6-9 inches it will be one of the most color fishes in the tank. Some stores have posters on the walls of colored up fishes, but these days, the internet has the best resources, and quickest references.

Another thing to me, is the knowledge of the person helping. Honesty will always be an issue. But the knowledge of an employee will keep customers coming back. Many times though, even with knowledge, honesty will hurt the customer. As knowledge will be lied about to make the sale. For an example, racso knows about this one. One of the area lfs, does their employee schedules buy the number of sales they do. In other words, the more you sell as an employee, the more time you will get scheduled for work. Now, IMO, if you are knowledgable about the fish, you will sell more. But, most people/employees don't see it this way. They just want to get more work so they can get paid more. So, they are not always honest about things, if it means making a sale. Thus making a better sales record so as to get more work scheduled.

The ability/availability to sell or get more types of fish into the store. This is a good one for me. As I know about a lot of fish, and have kept many newly discovered fishes, as well as many rare and hard to find fishes. When I am in most lfs, I am looking for oddities. Both oddities like the fish most other lfs don't sell, as well as the oddities most people don't keep. The problem here, is that many lfs are chain stores and only sell certain fish. So you will never, or at least rarely ever see the oddities in their stores. This is probably the biggest reason for the lfs I frequent the most. As they can get in almost any type of fish you are looking for.

HTH....

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There is always a bigger fish...

I agree 100% with the previous posts...especially the inquiry on the customer's tank set-up and current stock as well as education on nitrogen cycle and stocking and upkeep guidelines. If I were to add anything to these it would have to be.....tank maintainence. I test the water in the bag that my newbies are in and I've seen some ridiculous water parameters. I've seen nitrates over 200 ppm, pH levels over 8 in fish that were supposed to be in slightly acidic water (Gouramis), etc. These problems make it difficult for the hobbyist to have success with their fish if they are coming from bad conditions to begin with. The acclimation procedure becomes trickier and can be risky. If the LFS would simply maintain their tanks as they are supposed to (weekly water changes, gravel vac, no overfeeding) then fish would come home a lot healthier and less stressed allowing the home aquarist, in my view, a better chance at success.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

good employees make a good store. They need be friendly and knowledgable, as well as helpful. They need to be willing to ask the right questions to aid in your quest for a peaceful happy tank, able to make proper suggestions and even, if need be, not sell you something if it won't do well in your environment.
The second thing I like in a good store is selection, selection, selection. If a store consistently doesn't havr what I want it doesn't matter who works there.
Cleanliness and organization are a big boost.
Good lighting is a must
What does NOT make a good store...
unclean tanks, ill or dead fish, a messy, dirty environment. Poor selection, poor personnel..etc

As an employee of an lfs, I know some of the hardships these stores face. The biggest is an uneducated customer. For example, someone who demands to put 5 goldfish in a bowl. To me, a good lfs is one who will say no to these people. It is important that the employees make sure the fish will be able to live comfortably wherever it goes.

I would prefer good practical skills, enclosures and care, than someone who was good in theory.

I can handle someone going and getting a book to check on a species, but i'd not like to see anyone put off cleaning a tank until someone more knowledgeable gets back from lunch.

I don't need brilliant products, but a selection for the basics is fine. If its formalin though, I'd expect VERY good instructions.

If i say "there is a dead fish in that tank", i expect someone to DO something, or at least be polite in telling me the reason nothing has been done.

I do not want to be sold everything in the store.
If the people do not have the same knowledge as myself, thats FINE. I expect that there are plenty of people that know more and plenty of people that know less, but i resent when the people that know less decide that I require X number of products so that my fish can survive. I resent it even more when I have pointed out what I am doing that means that I do NOT require it. This part often makes me leave the store, or at least un-recommend the place to people.

If a store has a LIVE FISH GUARANTEE, i expect that if a fish is sick within that time, and I make the effort to contact them, I expect them to do something other than tell me its my fault. I do not then want to be told that my tanks are ill cared for and that if i make the efffort to drive down there (to find their tank also full of ich) that they *MIGHT* go halves in medication.
This type of behaviour negates any concept of welfare behind a live fish guarantee. It is purely financial, and that is fine, but DO NOT then promote it as a welfare issue.
(can you tell I have been burned? )

There is probably more. I'm not thinking straight tonight

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

i could really care less about the people that are there. i would like to see a big selection of fishys. thats all.

A good Fish store has friendly staff who ask you questions about your tank and fish keeping routines, they don't sell Gold fish unless they are for ponds(ok so that is a long shot) and they direct you to fish according to what you have and suggest upgrades if you ask about a particular fish's needs.

Ideally they encourage repeat custom and so are happy to see you to do a rekkie of the fish and tanks they have, as well as when you come in decisions made and ready to buy.

I would like some one to have the enthusiasm that some people have on here - really excited about tanks plants and fish and give suggestions in a positive way, not "yeah you can buy that Rainbow shark for your ten gallon it ll die but I don't care cos I have your money"...etc

I have to say the shop I go to most, the guy whos runs it is very knowledgable buy really doesn't care whether the fish live or die, he has knowing sold me fish I have "liked" over the years that aren't suitable, and has said recently as I have known more(thanks to here mostly) that there is no point in stopping people they buy what they like if not here some where else.

its difficult they have to make money I guess and I wish they'd behave more like an animal rescue place!!

GFG

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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

I am going to write an article about what makes a fish store (or any store that sells fish for that matter) a good store. I wanting to make sure I cover a lot of bases and get all considerations down. Some things I'm going to write about:

Knowledge (both general and expertise)
Merchandise (both live and dry)
Animal Care
Store Care (cleanliness, upkeep, etc.)
Etc.

I just want some more ideas on what others think make a good store. I've already talked to some people about this and got some ideas, but the more the marier.

Now keep things in mind that I don't expect every employee in a store to tell me the breeding habits of Stonogobiops nematodes, however, I DO expect them to be able to explain to me the nitrogen cycle, both generally, and very specific (I would say down to the bacteria, but there is still debate on the actual bacteria).

Well, now that you know what I'm looking for,please put in some comments or ideas, or some things I should touch on. I may use this paper to base my Vet. Tech. term paper, so this will be on the professonal level.

Thanks for any input.
~Jorge

You guys have helped me out a lot. Most of what you've posted are just things that I've already thought of, but it helps me know where you guys stand. Keep posting, this is really giving me some ideas.

I tend to hate pet and aquarium stores, its quite hard to know enough about both and be truly helpful to customers.

plus me not likes it when a lfs staff reccomends a fish for my bio type...especially when it was from other side of world

Convinent location, and good hours.

Evening workshops on setting up a tank (for the newbie), water quality, plants... lectures of different types of fish that are sold in the shop. Maybe pamphets on Labyrinth fish, cichlids etc. More education for the consumer.

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If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished.

Have staff that don't say the customers questions are silly :#(

A lfs that supports the hobby. We all know that the lfs are set up to make money. Other wise they would not be open. But, a lfs that supports the hobby, is a lfs that I support. What I mean by this, is that they contribute to the community in the hobby. Like donations to local area clubs. Buys fish from breeders that frequent their shops. Attends meetings, and participates in activities of local clubs and makes a point to show their interest in the hobby. Supports events in the hobby.

A little story about this;
When we hosted the ACA convention in Cincinnati, in 2003, one of my duties was to drum up donations. Of the several dozen lfs within a 30 mile radius, I really found out those that support the hobby highly, those that moderately support the hobby, and those that are in it for one thing - Money. Some of the lfs were more than willing to donate what they could. Some donated moderately or medialy, while others were an absolute no and even one almost chased me out of his store! lol. Some were actually eager to donate what they could (the amount did not matter. As some lfs could not afford much). I recieved donations as little as $20, and some donations as high as retail pricing in the hundreds of dollars. It is a give and take thing. As they all recieved advertisement at the convention in one way or another. But the point is, they were willing to help the community of the hobby. Before I did this, there were several fish stores I rarely went to, some I had never been to, and those that were my favorites. After I did this, there are now lfs that I will not go to at all, and more that I frequent.

Now I am not saying that the more they contribute to the community makes them a better lfs. Because some have a higher profit margine than others. I am saying the contribution to the community, no matter the value, is what I am looking at.

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

i like to walk into a clean store if the tanks are nasty i,m not buying if they have too many tanks too clean than there understaffed or they don,t give a crap ether way the animals suffer i also don,t like mixed cichlids tanks say a melanochromis auratus in the same tank as labidochromis caeruleus then they tell you ahh this guys will get along great and you should get a few of thes pseu crabro too this was my first 29 gal set up i had it a few months came home my labs were dead and my bumbles and auratus wee u know i did,nt mess with fish for some time after that they need to have knowledgeable staff in all areas most stores in tn are are cichlid stupid sorry for rambling

ACIDRAIN,

That is a very nice story. I wish I could follow your example that easily, but unfortunately there are problems with that approach in my area.

The biggest moral issue here is: What if the most money hungry LFS is also the one with the most and healthiest fish? For me that is a tough one, but in the end the egoistic approach that better fish are better for me wins. At least it did so far.

There are a few additional points, like accessibility and length of time when transporting fish from store to home, that would tilt the scale towards the “evil” store.

I truly wish I had more equal options in my area and then it would be so much easier to make moral decisions.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Don't want to get off subject here, but do want to answer back to you LF.

The biggest moral issue here is: What if the most money hungry LFS is also the one with the most and healthiest fish? For me that is a tough one, but in the end the egoistic approach that better fish are better for me wins. At least it did so far.

Many times, you cannot tell about the health of the fish. Because they are sold too quickly from when they are shipped in, to see any illness or disease. But then again, many times they are there for a while. And I can understand about better fish being better for anyone.

There are a few additional points, like accessibility and length of time when transporting fish from store to home, that would tilt the scale towards the “evil” store.

This should not be considered. The thing is, if more people understood the length of time a fish can remain bagged without harm, then it would not be considered for most cases. If fish are bagged properly, they will be fine for many hours. For example; Our club auction is held twice a year. I always take the max number of bags (30) to the auction every time. I start bagging fish the night before at around 8-9pm. I finish up around 12-2am. They sit in the styros overnight, and then off to the auction. The bags are sold all day long, and the auction lasts up to around 6-10pm, depending on how many total bags have been entered into it (average is 900, but has been as many as 1,300). I have never lost a single fish in the past 8 years I have been doing this. Yes, in some cases I use breathable bags, and in some cases I use Jungle Bag Buddies. But I have never used O2. Most lfs will bag the fish to your specifications, and their availability. As for the breathable bags, I have kept fish in these for as long as a week rarely loosing any of them. When I used to go on collecting trips, we would come back with hundreds of these bags full with fish. 99% of the ones we lost, were due to a bag leaking. These bags are re-usable, so their expense is not much considering. Purchase some of these bags for the longer lfs trips, and have the employees bag them in your own bags.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Its a small point, but I actually like staff in fish stores to have decent skills in actually catching the fish, the rest like disease and water quality I can rectify, I certainly dont need half assed advice from a shop assistant, I believe ultimately its peoples own responsibility to read into fish as much as possible before buying them.

If you rely on information from pet stores youll be very badly off for info , and most people wont spend long enough with even an experienced shop assistant to learn a great deal. While some experienced aquarists in shops are a gem to find most will have read a manual or caresheet or two and have no longterm idea of maintenance, and often the conditions found so often in fish shops can cloud their long term judgement as to suitable keeping protocols.Theyre business is to keep the fish alive, often under blanket water conditions and get them out of the shop asap, this is their business, to make money. In some cases asking a fish store keeping advice is no better a bet than asking a fast food restaurant about good food nutrition. Basicaly the whole situation is one of "conflict of interest".

Lets be honest , most people who work in fish stores know that most of the fish they sell are destined to die in the hands of bad keepers, probably less than 10% of the fish they sell find truly good homes. I dont think working in a fish shop is something somebody who truly loves animals with a genuine concern for their well-being would do. The same can be said of the reptile trade and the bird trade.In my career in animal rescue ive worked alongside the rspca and had to give consultant advice that led to the closure of reptile shops, not something I take lightly but the abuses are terrible. So to my mind I think proper disease treatment protocols, humane euthanasia issues, and proper short term maintenance issues are forefront issues with a good number of pet stores, only when they get these protocols right do they have any business giving advice.

Its a horrible fact but a huge number of pet stores arent really meeting minimum standards, but there simply isnt the resources to police them properly and far too many "pseudo- experts" out there. Ive met other consultants that should never be let within 50 yards of an animal let alone writing protocol for agencies.In addition to that theres probably corruption too.

I think we all know that guarantees shops give are fundamentally worthless, only geared to help give the impression of not wanting to just grab our money, the guarantees do absolutely nothing for the health of the fish. A 2 -5 day guarantee is no degree of fish handling or keeping quality as we all know deaths from stress, disease, and shock can take a week or even months.Quarantine is our only defence, and then shops should really be doing that.Most shops who buy fish in for a few pence arent really concerned about a sick or dead fish coming back , they just chuck them in the bin,but theyd have you believe that their guarantee is some sort of moral improvement. Its just a panacea to throw animal rights people off the scent.


Im not knocking the good shops though, some of them do a damn good job, often in the face of blinding ignorance,but again these people are hobbyists first and foremost and their jobs at fish stores is usually incidental. But on the whole should be getting our information from solid literature, scientific research, biologists, hobbyists, vets, and zookeepers, not from shops. I might be more encouraged if such shops were better networked, and had people contributing to information databases and insisted that their staff undergo contant periodical training, but again its a money issue. They dont pay the staff well, the staff are usually temporary, and people will always want cheap fish. I think its our reticence to pay for a fish and treat it as being of value that encourages this way of thinking. Ultimately if we want things to improve we will have to accept rises in the prices of fish. Im not just preaching here, my local shop, the aquatic habitat is a good shop, they try to do some quarantine, they try to offer good quality fish, and im prepared to support them by paying a little more for the fish I buy from them.

Ok these are issues we'll probably not see resolved in our lifetimes.The stressed fish badly caught is an issue that keeps bothering me though, because its needless and I keep seeing it.Nothing is more heartbreaking than watching fish in a tank keel over from stress while theyre being caught or ten minutes later in the bag.Personally I feel like smacking them round the head for being such nerks. Ive never ever killed a fish by catching it.

So in short what id like to see in a pet shop of any kind are the fundamental things.I think here are a few things id implement if i could. Some of these you may find extreme, but if you know a better way be sure to mention it!Go on, argue

1) Good short term and long term captive care protocols more accurately studied, obvserved, implemented, and regularly checked. Monthly visits to all shops and breeders and importers carrying high stocks.

2) Universal standards in animal care governed centrally with government legal backing and assistance, monitored and mediated by some of the best scientific minds in animal care , biology and zoology.

3) Increased vetinary consultation not only through head of business corporations, but at ground level site visits to individual stores and stockists, and solid and transparent rules on disease protocols and euthanasia.Enforced regional vetinary contracts where neccesary.

4) Incentives for the establishment of captive breeding for all commonly sold species , and stricter limitations on the collection of wild species.

5) A universal standard database or publication of information on all species available in a cetain shop -if there is no information stockists should not be allowed to sell the animals. This should include general protocols on housing and cycling etc in addition to species specific information including temperatures , feeding social behaviour etc.This information should be free to the customer, and available on request for anyone making a genuine purchase.Customers who have not yet cycled a tank should be given a cooling off period to set up aquaria before they are permitted to buy fish- 21 days cycling time would be a reasonable standard.Fish sold prior to this time for the purposes of cycling should be of suitable species and have correct advice given on this subject. Fishless cycling to be recommended. In addition I would also recommend that chemicals for cycling be compulsory stock for all major fish stockists.

6) Legal accountability for the selling of animals to people known or suspected to have insufficient housing and inadequate equipment. Also penalties for those known to lie when questioned.

7) Very large species of fish- 3 feet or over to require a license. This should be applied for from local councils/government bodies under the provision of checks for suitable housing and experience/knowledge.

8) legal requirement for stockist to carry suitable foods and equipment for ALL the species they carry and a commitment to the continuation of stock.

9) A simply worded and specific information sheet on the subject of the legal requirement of good keeping protocols, the government rules on live foods, and what clearly constitues animal abuse and the penalties thereof.This should be prominantly displayed in shops with a clear phone number for contacting legal agencies or the local animal care authority. Copies should be available for free via the veb , by post or on request at the establishment.

10)Clear study and correlation of data on highly aggressive and territorial fish to the ends of developing some clear and accurate legislation for a legal requirement to house them correctly with the aim of discouraging abuse and needless fish suffering and death.

Militant git, aint I?




Last edited by longhairedgit at 02-Oct-2005 04:36