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i like to walk into a clean store if the tanks are nasty i,m not buying if they have too many tanks too clean than there understaffed or they don,t give a crap ether way the animals suffer i also don,t like mixed cichlids tanks say a melanochromis auratus in the same tank as labidochromis caeruleus then they tell you ahh this guys will get along great and you should get a few of thes pseu crabro too this was my first 29 gal set up i had it a few months came home my labs were dead and my bumbles and auratus wee u know i did,nt mess with fish for some time after that they need to have knowledgeable staff in all areas most stores in tn are are cichlid stupid sorry for rambling

ACIDRAIN,

That is a very nice story. I wish I could follow your example that easily, but unfortunately there are problems with that approach in my area.

The biggest moral issue here is: What if the most money hungry LFS is also the one with the most and healthiest fish? For me that is a tough one, but in the end the egoistic approach that better fish are better for me wins. At least it did so far.

There are a few additional points, like accessibility and length of time when transporting fish from store to home, that would tilt the scale towards the “evil” store.

I truly wish I had more equal options in my area and then it would be so much easier to make moral decisions.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Don't want to get off subject here, but do want to answer back to you LF.

The biggest moral issue here is: What if the most money hungry LFS is also the one with the most and healthiest fish? For me that is a tough one, but in the end the egoistic approach that better fish are better for me wins. At least it did so far.

Many times, you cannot tell about the health of the fish. Because they are sold too quickly from when they are shipped in, to see any illness or disease. But then again, many times they are there for a while. And I can understand about better fish being better for anyone.

There are a few additional points, like accessibility and length of time when transporting fish from store to home, that would tilt the scale towards the “evil” store.

This should not be considered. The thing is, if more people understood the length of time a fish can remain bagged without harm, then it would not be considered for most cases. If fish are bagged properly, they will be fine for many hours. For example; Our club auction is held twice a year. I always take the max number of bags (30) to the auction every time. I start bagging fish the night before at around 8-9pm. I finish up around 12-2am. They sit in the styros overnight, and then off to the auction. The bags are sold all day long, and the auction lasts up to around 6-10pm, depending on how many total bags have been entered into it (average is 900, but has been as many as 1,300). I have never lost a single fish in the past 8 years I have been doing this. Yes, in some cases I use breathable bags, and in some cases I use Jungle Bag Buddies. But I have never used O2. Most lfs will bag the fish to your specifications, and their availability. As for the breathable bags, I have kept fish in these for as long as a week rarely loosing any of them. When I used to go on collecting trips, we would come back with hundreds of these bags full with fish. 99% of the ones we lost, were due to a bag leaking. These bags are re-usable, so their expense is not much considering. Purchase some of these bags for the longer lfs trips, and have the employees bag them in your own bags.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Its a small point, but I actually like staff in fish stores to have decent skills in actually catching the fish, the rest like disease and water quality I can rectify, I certainly dont need half assed advice from a shop assistant, I believe ultimately its peoples own responsibility to read into fish as much as possible before buying them.

If you rely on information from pet stores youll be very badly off for info , and most people wont spend long enough with even an experienced shop assistant to learn a great deal. While some experienced aquarists in shops are a gem to find most will have read a manual or caresheet or two and have no longterm idea of maintenance, and often the conditions found so often in fish shops can cloud their long term judgement as to suitable keeping protocols.Theyre business is to keep the fish alive, often under blanket water conditions and get them out of the shop asap, this is their business, to make money. In some cases asking a fish store keeping advice is no better a bet than asking a fast food restaurant about good food nutrition. Basicaly the whole situation is one of "conflict of interest".

Lets be honest , most people who work in fish stores know that most of the fish they sell are destined to die in the hands of bad keepers, probably less than 10% of the fish they sell find truly good homes. I dont think working in a fish shop is something somebody who truly loves animals with a genuine concern for their well-being would do. The same can be said of the reptile trade and the bird trade.In my career in animal rescue ive worked alongside the rspca and had to give consultant advice that led to the closure of reptile shops, not something I take lightly but the abuses are terrible. So to my mind I think proper disease treatment protocols, humane euthanasia issues, and proper short term maintenance issues are forefront issues with a good number of pet stores, only when they get these protocols right do they have any business giving advice.

Its a horrible fact but a huge number of pet stores arent really meeting minimum standards, but there simply isnt the resources to police them properly and far too many "pseudo- experts" out there. Ive met other consultants that should never be let within 50 yards of an animal let alone writing protocol for agencies.In addition to that theres probably corruption too.

I think we all know that guarantees shops give are fundamentally worthless, only geared to help give the impression of not wanting to just grab our money, the guarantees do absolutely nothing for the health of the fish. A 2 -5 day guarantee is no degree of fish handling or keeping quality as we all know deaths from stress, disease, and shock can take a week or even months.Quarantine is our only defence, and then shops should really be doing that.Most shops who buy fish in for a few pence arent really concerned about a sick or dead fish coming back , they just chuck them in the bin,but theyd have you believe that their guarantee is some sort of moral improvement. Its just a panacea to throw animal rights people off the scent.


Im not knocking the good shops though, some of them do a damn good job, often in the face of blinding ignorance,but again these people are hobbyists first and foremost and their jobs at fish stores is usually incidental. But on the whole should be getting our information from solid literature, scientific research, biologists, hobbyists, vets, and zookeepers, not from shops. I might be more encouraged if such shops were better networked, and had people contributing to information databases and insisted that their staff undergo contant periodical training, but again its a money issue. They dont pay the staff well, the staff are usually temporary, and people will always want cheap fish. I think its our reticence to pay for a fish and treat it as being of value that encourages this way of thinking. Ultimately if we want things to improve we will have to accept rises in the prices of fish. Im not just preaching here, my local shop, the aquatic habitat is a good shop, they try to do some quarantine, they try to offer good quality fish, and im prepared to support them by paying a little more for the fish I buy from them.

Ok these are issues we'll probably not see resolved in our lifetimes.The stressed fish badly caught is an issue that keeps bothering me though, because its needless and I keep seeing it.Nothing is more heartbreaking than watching fish in a tank keel over from stress while theyre being caught or ten minutes later in the bag.Personally I feel like smacking them round the head for being such nerks. Ive never ever killed a fish by catching it.

So in short what id like to see in a pet shop of any kind are the fundamental things.I think here are a few things id implement if i could. Some of these you may find extreme, but if you know a better way be sure to mention it!Go on, argue

1) Good short term and long term captive care protocols more accurately studied, obvserved, implemented, and regularly checked. Monthly visits to all shops and breeders and importers carrying high stocks.

2) Universal standards in animal care governed centrally with government legal backing and assistance, monitored and mediated by some of the best scientific minds in animal care , biology and zoology.

3) Increased vetinary consultation not only through head of business corporations, but at ground level site visits to individual stores and stockists, and solid and transparent rules on disease protocols and euthanasia.Enforced regional vetinary contracts where neccesary.

4) Incentives for the establishment of captive breeding for all commonly sold species , and stricter limitations on the collection of wild species.

5) A universal standard database or publication of information on all species available in a cetain shop -if there is no information stockists should not be allowed to sell the animals. This should include general protocols on housing and cycling etc in addition to species specific information including temperatures , feeding social behaviour etc.This information should be free to the customer, and available on request for anyone making a genuine purchase.Customers who have not yet cycled a tank should be given a cooling off period to set up aquaria before they are permitted to buy fish- 21 days cycling time would be a reasonable standard.Fish sold prior to this time for the purposes of cycling should be of suitable species and have correct advice given on this subject. Fishless cycling to be recommended. In addition I would also recommend that chemicals for cycling be compulsory stock for all major fish stockists.

6) Legal accountability for the selling of animals to people known or suspected to have insufficient housing and inadequate equipment. Also penalties for those known to lie when questioned.

7) Very large species of fish- 3 feet or over to require a license. This should be applied for from local councils/government bodies under the provision of checks for suitable housing and experience/knowledge.

8) legal requirement for stockist to carry suitable foods and equipment for ALL the species they carry and a commitment to the continuation of stock.

9) A simply worded and specific information sheet on the subject of the legal requirement of good keeping protocols, the government rules on live foods, and what clearly constitues animal abuse and the penalties thereof.This should be prominantly displayed in shops with a clear phone number for contacting legal agencies or the local animal care authority. Copies should be available for free via the veb , by post or on request at the establishment.

10)Clear study and correlation of data on highly aggressive and territorial fish to the ends of developing some clear and accurate legislation for a legal requirement to house them correctly with the aim of discouraging abuse and needless fish suffering and death.

Militant git, aint I?




Last edited by longhairedgit at 02-Oct-2005 04:36