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First off Welcome to the hobby.
You mentioned that due to inexperience you may worry about water conditions. Let me say that first of all I'm not trying to scare ya off at all, but this will require some work on your part. I'm sure you've heard that the larger the tank the better the water parameters will be. That is very true, especially in a well stocked ten gallon tank. Many species of fish require pristine water, which luckily is not hard to keep. A rigourous cleaning scheduled must be adhered to with a smaller tank like a ten. I recommend a water change of 2-3 gallons twice a week. I have a ten, currently it houses just a male betta and a small snail. Before, I had a pair of blue dwarf gouramis in it and let me tell you, with a stocked tank the water parameters will easily spike. Just change the water/gravel vacuum often and you'll be fine.

my peppered cories are fine in theyre little 3 piece schoal. They hardly evr schoal anyway. (thats mine not cories in general, whereever you go someone will tell you something different.

re: reun and Calilasseia & Minnows

Apparently I also stand corrected

I thought they got unnecessarily stressed in warmer waters.

Dun(e)

hey Sobchek, welcome to FP

I reckon you can do fine with the minnows if you want to keep them I'd only add another 1-2 as this will give you some breathing room. Its a small tank, and understocking will usually work out better for you.
The main reason 10 gallons aren't recommended for beginners is that beginners tend to overstock, and overstocking (or even to-the-limit stocking) and a small tank don't go well together.

If you can't avoid the small tank, just avoid overstocking

As well as the white clouds, I'd go for a betta and some kuhli loaches I'd try for a female betta (they come in all the same colours now, so don't worry about that) or a calm short-tail male.

I'd stick to 3 kuhlies. They get about as plump as a pencil, so you don't want oodles in there
The best thing about kuhlies is that they eat fallen food like there is no tomorrow, their small heads fit in between the substrate so they catch most of it

If you aren't into little eel-like things, mabe a hillstream loach? they seem quite calm and reasonably small, and they are more temperate climate fish, from memory. Maybe worth looking into?

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

White Clouds are amazingly adaptable as regards temperature. Wild ones will stand anything from a lowly 4°F to a whopping 90°F ... which is a massive temperature range. Needless to say, they're fairly bomb proof in an aquarium!

Usually they prefer something around 70°F, though they will go higher without too much trouble if they're being kept with fishes that like it warmer. Though as they're fairly active little fishes, it's advisable to give them excellent oxygenation at the higher temperatures.

Oh, as regards small Corys, the Salt And Pepper Cory or Dainty Cory, Corydoras habrosus, is one of the smallest Corys, and WILL live in modest quarters, but you have to be fairly scrupulous about substrate cleanliness to keep them happy. They're not quite as fussy as Pandas in this regard, but they don't like gunky gravel beds. Also, there are issues with substrate types and habrosus - they seem to like small sized particles of rounded gravel best. Certainly the fry prefer it - Derek Lambourne in his Cory book cited massive fry losses when they were kept over river sand, which didn't occur when the parents were spawned a second time over gravel. Here's my extract from the book:

Breeding: Detailed Account:

4 males, 24mm, 4 females, 30mm, all wild caught, 30x20x20 cm breeding aquarium, furnished with 1.2cm layer of well-washed river sand, 1 box filter, 1 small clump Java Moss, water chemistry pH 7.4, 12°GH (tap water pre-aged for 2 weeks), temperature 25°C daytime, 18°C nighttime (no heating in fish house during summer). Spawning in typical T formation. 30 eggs laid, egg dia approx. 2mm, deposited singly and indiscriminately upon aquarium sides, sides of box-filter and in Java Moss. Measurement of SL during development as follows: 3.5mm (7 days old), 6.5mm (1 month old), 10mm (2 months old). Adult colouration attained in 6-7 weeks. Considering small size of female, egg size comparatively large. Also, it was discovered that while the fine sand did not affect the adults, it caused considerable damage to the barbels of the fry, and many died. Subsequent spawnings used 1.5mm dia gravel.

At least one member here (namely Cory_Di) had issues with adult habrosus over nonstandard substrates too. Worth considering if you're thinking of getting habrosus for any aquarium. Oh, and they like decent numbers - the smaller Corys are all more 'avowedly social' than the larger ones, and need the psychological security of decent numbers. Ideally you should get 8 or so at a time if you can as a minimum number, and if you have the space to house more (12+), so much the better. They really come alive when they have decent numbers - ask Heidi, who has a small army of them in her 125G!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

my mistake dune, for some reason i was thinking they prefered warmer peramiters. i have never had them, only heard of their behavior. the fish everyone was suggesting were in the same temperature preferances (roughly) as the ones i mentioned. i stand corrected.

Thanks for the advice all...This is actually killing two birds with one stone. My daughter wants a fish for Christmas and I have been thinking of getting into the hobby for the past year or more. This gave me an excuse to get my feet wet. Ten gallons is not ideal I know, but it is what we have, so we are going to have to make the best of it. I have already told the wife that a 30 gallon + is not too far down the line....

Anyway, I would have not selected the minnows myself, but unfortunately I was recommended them by the salesperson at the lfs. Good starter fish...but not really compatible with the fish I envisioned for the tank. I will see if they will take them back after the tank cycles.

I was thinking a Honey Dwarf Gourami and a couple of Cherry Barbs might be acceptable for this tank? Though a bottom feeder might help keep things a bit cleaner. Still not sure which way to go, so looks like alot more reading and questions are on the way!

White clouds prefer cool water whereas the other fish you mentioned prefer warming water (24 degree C area)

Dun(e)

i think by peppered they meant SALT AND PEPPER corys....pygmy corys of sorts

now, as far as corys in a ten gallon? DONT DO IT! i kept corys in small schools of 1-5...no dice...they didnt come alive and werent happy untill there were 7 total in a large tank.

get yoursefl a kuli(however you spell it) loach or order a South American Bumblebee catfish if you stay up late and can purchase some blue LED's to light up the tank at night so you can watch him. i love mine, most LFS's can order them, very few stock them though, they are peacefull, they eat from the bottom, feed them sinking high protien pellets just like corys.

i would say either expand the school of minnows, or sell them/trade them, and get some guppies if you want color(ps. the guppys wont overpopulate the tank if you get a bumblecat either, while he is a big wuss to fish about half an inch or larger, if it can fit in his mouth he will take care of excess fry. then the guppies are happy cause they get to breed, the bumble is happy cause he gets live food, and you are happy cause you have a pretty looking tank without over population concerns. this might not be good if you have a squeamish stomach though,lol,cause fry are very cute,lol)

or i would say get some tetras. with smaller fish most are nippy, very few arent. you could look into planting the tank or adding some cover and getting 2 little cherry barbs and a single male beta.

i dont think anything really showy and flashy will work with the minows, and its not such a good idea to fill out their school and add another school of say some tetras.

suggestions? full group of showy pretty tetras and nothing other than a bottom feeder and algae eater, both single, both small, and then say 6 black skirt tetras or bleeding hearts. or, 5+ lemon tetras, MAYBE a male beta, if all you will have is a single small loach, even then, you will have to keep up on gravel vacs and water changes.

or, as suggested, a couple cherrys and a male beta, or a bumble cat and guppys.

you can always add more minnows and get a large school and add just a bumblecat or small loach?

those are my suggestions for a ten

Just to clarify... Peppered Corys are actually one of the largest species of corys (exluding the genus Scleromystax), and they really don't belong in anything smaller than thirty gallons. I've seen many females that were over three inches long.

They are very active as well... A poor choice for a ten gallon tank.

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Hello all...new to the hobby here!

I have 3 White Clouds in my first 10 gallon tank which is cycling. I was thinking of adding a male Betta next. Most things I have read state that the minnows are peaceful community fish, however I have now heard that they may cause problems with a Betta due to nipping? Which is the case?

Also, could I eventually add 2-3 Panda Corys to this tank along with the Betta and minnows? Or would this be excessive overstocking in a tank this size?

Thanks for the help!

Add more Minnows, as they are schooling fish & then see what you really want.

If you want 1 Betta, that will be fine, but if you want Corydoras, you need a small type, as they need to stay in a school of 6, just like the Minnows.


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First of all, put on the brakes and let's pause for thought.

One, you have 3 White Clouds in there. They are shoaling fishes, and ideally you should have at least 6. That alone is going to cramp your stocking options if you bring that shoal up to scratch.

Second, if you're looking for a small but relatively hardy Corydoras catfish, then your best bet would probably be either Corydoras hastatus or Corydoras pygmaeus if you can get them. Do NOT expect either species to be an easy find though!

Third, although Pandas are among the smaller Corys, I would NOT recommend them to a beginner, because they can be fairly fussy about water conditions and the cleaniness of the substrate - plus, if your aquarium undergoes a pH crash, they'll be the first to die (a nice expensive loss they'll be too).

Fourth, once you have 6 White Clouds and 6 Pygmy Corys in there, you'll be more or less finished stocking the aquarium. I certainly would not consider adding any more fishes to that setup once you have those inmates living in there, and even then, quite a few people will tell you that 12 fish in a 10 gallon won't go. If you know what you're doing, 6 White Clouds and 6 Pygmy Corys is an acceptable combination, but this is your first aquarium, and so you probably want to limit the scope for catastrophe by sticking to the 6 White Clouds for now.

Fifth, I am tempted to ask at this stage if your aquarium was an 'all in one' setup sold to you by a big chain. The reason being that this pattern is all too familiar. The minimum size of aquarium that should be offered to a newcomer by any responsible dealer is 24" x 12" x 12" - which works out at around 15 gallons US. In that size of aquarium, you've more room for manouevre and a bigger safety margin vis-a-vis water pollution. The irony here is that small aquaria are actually more difficult to keep stable - which is why they tend to be pressed into service by veteran aquarists for specialised tasks. A better size for starting up would be 36" x 12" x 12" - that's 22 gallons US. You could put quite a nice community together in that size of aquarium. If the budget (and space) runs to it, best of all would be 48" x 12" x 12" - just short of 30 US gallons. That would give you greater stability of the available water, more stocking options and a considerably bigger safety margin. Trouble is, if the big chains sold equipment responsibly like that, they'd then have to explain why they were trying to sell you a larger (and therefore more expensive in terms of initial capital outlay) aquarium, and to do that they'd need properly educated staff, and if there's one commodity that's in short supply in a big chain, it's specialists who know their stuff. Does this sound familiar to you? LOTS of people on this Board have been there before.

One of the wonderful ironies here, in addition, is that there are tiny shoaling fishes that will live in a 10G, but these are about as rare in dealer stocks as the proverbial rocking horse droppings. I've never ever seen in the flesh such mini-gems as Hyphessobrycon georgettae, which at 20mm is the perfect shoaling fish for the modest sized aquarium, despite the fact that it's a nicely coloured fish. The trade has become too used to stocking certain 'guaranteed sellers' (Neons for example) on the basis that all too many of their potential customers come in thinking "oh let's get some of those pretty fish" without doing their homework as to whether the "pretty fish" will survive for long with only basic care and maintenance. Plus, training staff to do the job properly costs money, when they're trained they demand higher wages, etc., you get the picture. So, the big chains bang out inadequate systems sold by inadequately trained staff on rock bottom wages, and ultimately this becomes all the more expensive to you, the poor benighted customer, because your fish keep dying and no-one will bother to take you to one side and explain a few basic facts. So, moving on to shameless self-publicity mode, read this article of mine and discover some more of the sins of the world as they are visited onto novice fishkeepers, then start looking for a specialist dealer who knows his stuff and will take you under his wing on the basis that a satisfied customer comes back and spends money because he wants to ... a notion that was lost somewhere along the way when big corporations started sending their management types to yuppie business schools to pick up MBAs and return with their heads full of nebulous jargon and practically nothing of actual value ... cynical, moi? Whatever gave you that idea?


Last edited by Calilasseia at 22-Dec-2005 22:10

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I think your choice of Cories could lead to too many problems as previously mentioned. A easy set up is 1 good M Betta (not a Red) as they "can" become aggressive and 6-9 Cardinal Tetras these are a far hardier than the neons and easy too look after. What else do you have in the tank Plants etc.
Have a look at my links as I have a similar tank.

Have a look in [link=My Profile]http://
www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/profile.asp?userid=6741" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link] for my tank info

[link=Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tanks]http://photobucket.com/albums/b209/keithgh/Betta%20desktop%20tank/" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link]

Keith

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Um, I dunno..
Two of my 'peppered cories' are big enough that I wouldn't consider putting them in a ten. I've only had them for a few months, and they're already about two inches long. They could just be freakishly large, though. I haven't looked at the profile for 'em for a while. I think pygmy cories stay pretty tiny, though.. I've never seen 'em any more than an inch long. I'm not sure how sensitive they are to water quality, though.
Yeah, maybe the ottos aren't the best idea. Then again, if I can keep 'em alive, I think anybody could.

______________
Cake or death?

Panda Cories are one of the more delicate cories anyway. I don't know what other people would say about this but peppered cories do not get as big as some of the other cories. Please do not yell at me if I am wrong but you might be able to get away with 4-6 peppered cories in that tank since they are smaller. If you tend to the tank regularly than I think you will be okay.


Christina

Huh...I have been told that 2-3 Corys would be fine together. Bummer too cause I really enjoy the look of the Panda! Are there any bottom feeders that you guys could recommend with my setup? I read that the Otocinclus Cat can be sensitive to water conditions and as I am a newbie I was trying to use fish that are going to be a bit more tolerant to my inexperience and mistakes.

Thanks again!

I've had white clouds and a male betta in a ten gallon tank without any problems with fin nipping. The white clouds were really fat and lazy, though, and I think they would have been happier in a larger tank. I wouldn't do pandas in a ten because they're so active. The pygmy cories might work, though. I think otocinclus are pretty fish, too.

Last edited by bananacoladafuze at 21-Dec-2005 16:28

______________
Cake or death?

Way too many fish for a 10 gal IMHO. As stated, pandas are real cutties and I love 'em but do better in a group of 5-6+ . That said, with already 3 white clouds, a new beta + the lil' happy bunch of cory pandas, I'd say you have a full aquarium on your hands. Plus, you would have all 3 areas covered : beta on top, minows in middle, and the pandas for the bottom. A few plants and you are all set.

Good luck !

Sponge

All cories need to be in school of atleast 6 of their own species to really do well. Also 10 gallons is probably a bit small for them. Can you get peppered cories? They are a smaller variety of cory, They would work better in a 10 gallon, I think.

I do not know much abotu the minnows, sorry.

Welcome!


Christina