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I humored the idea of a paladarium for my frog, but a 15g is WAY too small for it. I just turned it into a terraruim with a waterfall and small pond. I used river rocks-available at any pet store, craft store, or Walmart (Walmart is much cheaper for this application) to make the base of the land mass. I was tinking of a betta in there, but the waterfall would create too much surface agitation.

I Couldn't find any info on the needlefish, but I think the archerfish may still be to big. Think smaller. Believe me, there has to be a way to have a paladarium in a 55g, you just need to find the right fish. The other animals, on the other hand, need to be thought of at the same time. Make sure you don't get anything that would make your fish lunch. I have a 5 yr old White's Dumpy Treefrog that will eat anything that moves and he can fit in his mouth.

my bookmarked sites say that while archers do get up to 10" in the wild they rarly exceed 6", needlefish dont move much and get to 8" and smaller in captivity, both were recomended for a 55

Well, then you need to get better bookmarked sites. Archers get big, like was mentioned, but they're also brackish fish. Needlefish, as far as I can find, get anywhere from 11-18 inches. That is way too big for a less-than-55 gallon tank. Also, they are really delicate, and should only be kept by experts.

What you've got to realize when stocking this thing is that you DON'T have 55 gallons of water. No matter how you do it, a paludarium has got to take up some space in the tank!

---

They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

we must be thinking of different needlfish species again:%)

just for the sake of arguement there is one way to have a paludarium with out it taking up water space by making a stand out if pvc pipe putting something on it(like glass) and then putting a paint tray for paint rollers on top of that to hold the dirt in but it doesnt look natural so i didnt want to do it..........unless you have any ideas?

Then give me scientific names as well, since common names are so broad!

I don't get why you'd want to have the entire terrestrial part of the paludarium out of water. Wouldn't that just look bad? And what about the animals and such that will be in it? Don't they need something to keep them in? And don't most of them like some humidity, that an in-tank paludarium thing would give?

I just think that if you're going to do a paludarium, you might as well make it look natural and stuff. Even if it gives up tank gallonage, and you can't fit these monster fish you like, it would still look a lot nicer than something else. A nice school of harly rasboras or something is all you really need to make the water part look good.

---

They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

theres not a **** thing i can do with my 55]:| i just wanna smash it with a bat]:|:%)

heres the site where i got that from

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/mike_palludarium_tank.html

the owner certainly has an assortment of creatures in there:%)

im no expert with these types of setups but i would like to help better the initial tank plan.

1st, dont give up and start swinging bats heheh that just makes a mess that you gotta clean up.

i see what your going for in the design and i love the idea and it sounds to me your after the look and not the occupents so stay with that and work the fish in later.

a suggestion with the beach..which i think looks great on paper...make it hollow with a cave system so its actually full of water. the idea is to create as much water space possible without comprimising the actual look. so you just leave it hollow with sand and rocks siliconed to it or another way then place a couple holes here and there large enough for fish to swim in ( or other critters ) and water to move through. you could even place a intake inside to make sure the water doesnt become stagnent.

ok before this becomes to long, let me know what you think if you would like me to continue with my 2 cents and ill toss some more detailed info on this thread.

hope this helps a little, or atleast gives hope

well sin if im hearing u right i love it! i thought of something similar actualy but it didnt sound that good in my head:%) this way i can stick to my original plan with the water now being 55 gallons give or take a few(well not give) my only problem is if a fish dies or is sick in said caves it will be hell to get them out

ya i was thinking of that also but it would be possible to make it so the beach comes out completly or a side wall slides off. i think a slide joint thats like a hook may work. can use plastic sheets to mold the beach how ever you see fit useing a heat gun or something similiar.

ive never done anything like this at all but if you ask around people will tell ya my head is constently thinking up projects to keep busy lol. i fully believe this is completly possible with some patience and thought. dont try to rush through it and im sure we can find a way to possibly make this plan happen.

ok now u lost me,u want to extend the beach the whole side of the bay

no no make it so the beach is removable from the tank...like its decor. if you suspect a fish stuck inside you just slide it out and look. or slide a wall out of the way so you have a good side view inside.

oh i get it like those tree stumps and what not at pet stores, i have 2 problems with this though 1 if i make the entire land hollow i will disturb the plants and animals in habiting it when i lift it, and 2, if i just make the beach hollow then i lose gallonage

or

if i insert under water lights in the caves that can be turned on with a button and make slid down doores for the cave entrances i can corner the fish and net it. and i could also use one of those scopes with a mirror in side shaped like an L and place it in the middle of the cave sticking out of the ground above(creativly hidden) will allow me to see the caves entirty]

Last edited by resle at 03-Apr-2005 11:10

there is another way to work aroudn the lost water volume from a solid beach.... a sump tank. figure your gona lose 10gallosn worth fromt he beach and the tank will prolly be lowerd so thats another 20g. so your running a 30g tank if you want 50gallons of water you add a 20g sump tank. this wont help with swimming space or crowding issues but does correct water quality issues.

i like my way better but i may make it less unarthodox:%)

oh and the water is 100% with the land sticking out the top(dont worry about things escaping i already have that figured out)

just a freindly bump

does anyone else have ideas on how to get fish out of the cave?

Not sure about the cave thing, but I just want to say something about the philisophy you are putting into the palundarium. In a half water, half land tank like the one you're putting together, you want to stick with little fish and amphibious creatures. You want animals that would naturally live in a pond or on the shore. It seems like what you're doing is putting two different ideas together. First of all, most fish you're talking about would not enjoy the comprimised water space you have due to the land portion. On the other hand, most lizards would not appriciate the mold and fungus they would develope from excess amounts of humidity. Even if you managed to make the bottom of the island hollow, you would still be hurting the herps. You really have to pick what you want more. If yout want lizards, get lizards. If you want fish get fish. If you really want the island, I would suggest getting land hermit crabs. They will give you a beach look and they will not have the same problems with humidity as a lizard would. If you want some ideas, check out my thred

- Dj :88)

READ THROUGH WHOLE THREAD BEFORE POSTING

honestly ive answered the same question several times its driving me nuts!!!]:|:%)

maybe this will help

get two pots relativly the same size then fill one with water after that put the other pot upside down ontop of it and there you go thats my aquarium HTH

so far we know that the land portion is hollow but dont know how to get fish out with ease...ideas?

heres a new list (well not really new)

1 african knife
2 reed fish
6 glass cats
9 rainbows
6 cories

Last edited by resle at 10-Apr-2005 15:42

I haven't read all the post but enough to get what you are trying to do(cool). Have you thought about molding a wall or beach that would extend to the bottom of the tank. Have the land rest on supports so you will have more water. Maybe even put the sponges under the land somehow.

Sorry, if this has been said already, but what species of knife? I might be concerned about the cories/glasses

hmmm........ i was sure no one had posted the knife is a Xenomystus nigri

lowlight im not sure i know what ur talking about

I will try to explain. You could make a wall and have it support another piece that would be horizontal for the land. Take this L flip it backwards and then rotate it counter clockwise 90deg, that would be the front view.

i think im getting what ur saying but it doesnt make sense:%)

A small table maybe make the side not touching the glass solid. The top of the table is above the water and everything else is below thye surface. If the land was a solid mass it would take up alot of space that could otherwise be used for water. If the land had a look of being solid yet was hollow you would have more water to cerculate.

do u mean like thishttp://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/mike_palludarium_tank.html

my plan is to make a hollow casing of the land so i can add more fish and they have some where to hide and on one side of the casing will be a door so i can easily net a sick or dead fish

READ THROUGH WHOLE THREAD BEFORE POSTING

honestly ive answered the same question several times its driving me nuts!!!

hmmm........ i was sure no one had posted

Normally, people don't yell at someone who is trying to help them. Now, if you actually read my post, you would understand what I am trying to tell at you. Before you start telling other people what to do, talk a few lessons about listening from yourself.

Here's something that Veneer said before:

Lizards typically require a basking spot, and may, in such a setup, drown or succumb to fungal growth or bacterial infection instigated by a potentially untenable degree of humidity.

I really don't care how you are builting the palundarium, the point is that you are putting two incompadible kinds of animals together. If you were building a polar bear cage, would you put it in the desert? I doubt it. The same principle applies here. The lizards will get sick. That was all I was trying to tell you, but apparently you didn't want to heard that.

Please, don't yell at me when I try to help you.
- Dj :88)

i wasnt yelling at u it was more of a freindly annoyance and if wat u say is true someone might want to tell these people

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/mike_palludarium_tank.html

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/paludarium/paludarium5.html

http://expage.com/page/geckospaludarium

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003.cgi?&op=showcase&category=3&vol=-1&id=78

this lizard lives in 100% hummidity rain forests which i think is around the same as my paludarium

http://www.centralpets.com/critterpages/reptiles/lizards/LZD2722.shtml

some geckos and anoles also have similar humidity requirements

Last edited by resle at 16-Apr-2005 14:47

Of Anolis carolinensis:

Daytime temperature range of 80-96 degrees Fahrenheit with hottest spot in "basking" area of Anole’s tank. Nighttime temperature range of 75-85 degrees Fahrenheit. Can (but rarely fall outside these ranges by 10-15 degrees Fahrenheit). Humidity should be about 65% but at least 50% and not above 65% year round.

From http://www.repticzone.com/caresheets/659.html.

Common anoles are not typically "waterside" organisms; certain Neotropical rainforest anoles may be better suited to your setup but will require UVB lighting and a basking lamp.

One might wish to explore truly semiaquatic lizards, as Shinisaurus crocodilurus; such creatures likely will require a basking lamp, [possibly] UVB lights, and reptile-formulated vitamin supplementation, and may pose a risk to your fish. I must note that, speaking generally, lizards do tend to be quite "messy", representing a great strain on the capabilities of one's filter.


Last edited by Veneer at 16-Apr-2005 16:53

Some other herpetiles you might have interest in:

Fully aquatic:

Caecilians

Surinam toads]http://www.aqualandpetsplus.com/Frog,%20Pippa%20Pippa.htm[/link] (a confirmed fish-eater, though smaller species of the genus, as [link=P. carvalhoi, are available)

"Tentacled snakes" (aka 'fishing snakes'/'river snakes'), Erpeton tentaculatum - a fully aquatic species which attains a length of 60 to 90 cm. E. tentaculatum, a member of the "rear-fanged" Homolopsinae (a grouping within the Colubridae), hails from the still waters of Southeast Asia. Tentacle snakes possess enlarged teeth in the rear portion of their upper jaws, and an associated venom-producing gland (the virulence of which is presently unknown); however, they exhibit great reluctance to bite, and many U.S. states that otherwise prohibit private ownership of venomous serpents apparently have no such regulation against Erpeton.

[Note: The titular "tentacles" protrude alongside each nostril, and are apparently sensory in nature.]

Semi-aquatic:

"Indonesian floating frogs"



Last edited by Veneer at 16-Apr-2005 17:02

Last edited by Veneer at 16-Apr-2005 17:03

You might also wish to consider some of the larger species of freshwater shrimp.

well any way i dont think im ready to research terestrial animals yet anyway since i have barly finished planning

heres a new fish list

1 african knifefish (Xenomystus nigri)
2 reedfish
6 glass catfish
5 hatchets
6? cories (maze?,bronze?,albino?)

First all, *gives a standing ovation to veneer* You know your herps.

i wasnt yelling at u it was more of a freindly annoyance and if wat u say is true someone might want to tell these people

Well, I'm still not happpy being called an annoyance. Anyway, the people on that site are fish keepers. Even if some people on there do keep herps, they probably know more about fish than reptiles. I would take advice from a reptile expert. It's like asking babel or shini how to care for parakeets. You have to pick the right sources.

Like I've been saying before, common anoles (most likely, the ones in your area, I doubt you would be able to find a neotropical one easily) and fish are like ketchup and ice cream. They don't miexcept on scooby doo, but they have talking dogs on that show, so I would be a bit cautions about anything you see there). None of the fish you listed would normally live near a beach. The only kind of fish that would be good in a palundarium would be land/water fish, like mudskippers or snakeheads(although the latter owuld eat any kind of tankmates), or small fish that could thrive in a small about of water which you will inevitably wind up with. Frogs are the best choice for a palundarium, but very few lizards and some snakes (garter come first to my mind)would work too. The pot thing could work, but your putting alot of thought into an idea that has a limited amount of success. The land creatures will need alot more room.

I would suggest a snake habitat. You might be able to have a knife in there cause snakes are no pushovers. Or, if you did frogs of some sort, you could have alot of small frogs and fish.

good luck
- dj :88)

i didnt mean u were an annoyance i ment that having to repeat my self is an annoyance. the problem with snakes, though is that they are more likly to eat any other inhabitants i might put in there besides garder snakes, i dont think, would apreciate the humitity though it would be cool to have a legless pet that i can hold for a change, it has a less of a chance of working. despite what u say im still going to give it a shot, if they can do it y cant i

if i know alot about fish and reptiles whos to say that no one else does? maybe like me they have other forums that arnt related

now can some one reply about my fish list

the problem with snakes, though is that they are more likly to eat any other inhabitants i might put in there

That's not completely true. Obviously, if you put it with guppies or tetras, you'll have some problems. But, if you shoot for larger fish, say 4 - 6 in. you should be ok. Although they are long and can eat larger animals, they are very skinny and wouldn't be anble to take down a blue gourami, for example.

besides garder snakes, i dont think, would apreciate the humitity

Not true either, they live in lakes. If you have a mesh cover, you could make it work.

it has a less of a chance of working.

right now, you are running into alot of difficulty. I would say it would work o0ut better.

despite what u say im still going to give it a shot, if they can do it y cant i

If t0hat's what yo0u want, obviously I can't do anything about it. Nor would I want to. You are free to do whatever you want with your tank, even if I disagree with you. I was just saying what I thought would work out the best.

- dj :88)

Depending on the respective sizes of your knifefish/reedfish and catfish/hatchets, I'd be concerned about the potential for predation.

thats y snakes wouldnt work because they would definatly eat the hatchets while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

now can we focus on my fish list

thats y snakes wouldnt work because they would definatly eat the hatchets while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

I beg to differ - anoles and geckos are most certainly insectivorous (crocodile geckos are, I must note, theoretically capable of consuming fish).

thats y snakes wouldnt work because they would definatly eat the hatchets while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

I'd like to clarify something - by my original statement, I was expressing concern that your knifefish and reedfish might consume your catfish and hatchets.

I beg to differ - anoles and geckos are most certainly insectivorous (crocodile geckos are, I must note, theoretically capable of consuming fish).

but i said

while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

i didnt choose geckos or anoles

ive had reedfish before and they never ate any of the fish even the danios but knife fish on the other hand, ofcoarse i did choose cories that are atleast 2.5" long so...

wat if i got big cories and small reedfish/kinfefish or would they stil eat them later

Sorry, bin away for a few. Yes that is basically what I was trying to discribe. Only maybe you could put something around the pvc to make it more natural looking. Plenty of land for the amphibians and water for the fish. Best of luck I hope you are succesfull.

please answer, if u dont i will asume everything is right and start on it

i would really like to use live rock because it looks alot like pond foam and is pourus is there any way i could get some that doesnt have any saltwater creatures on it or does anybody know what kind of rock it is?

HELLO!!!......HELlo!!......Hello!......hello......hello, where is everybody?

also is it possibly to keep mangroves in freshwater?

I wish I could help, but I don't have a clue.

actually i think i can answer my own questions, base rock, i beleive, has no salt water creatures on it though i think its expensive. i think mangroves should work considering they either block the salt or secrete it from there leaves.

a few more questions

i would happily keep a snake or lizard as long as it doesnt eat fish or frogs and will willingly be held, any suggestions? does any one know of a good reptile forum? king snake's forums are to low tech and confusing

Last edited by resle at 23-Apr-2005 10:34

wat if i got big cories and small reedfish/kinfefish or would they stil eat them later

Much would depend on what species on cory you have in mind; your reedfish in particular might, as they matured, attempt to consume them (and possibly die in the process). However, such combinations are far from out of the question.

also is it possibly to keep mangroves in freshwater?

Theoretically, yes, but I wouldn't suggest it; they will likely outgrow your tank.

See this link.

Last edited by Veneer at 23-Apr-2005 23:38

as previously stated i have chosen maze, bronze and albino cories

i would happily keep a snake or lizard as long as it doesnt eat fish or frogs and will willingly be held, any suggestions? does any one know of a good reptile forum? king snake's forums are to low tech and confusing

i would really like to use live rock because it looks alot like pond foam and is pourus is there any way i could get some that doesnt have any saltwater creatures on it or does anybody know what kind of rock it is?

No, live rock is for marine use only.

well i think thats all the questions for now, construction will start soon so look out for operation river paludarium

Last edited by resle at 30-Apr-2005 21:29

well i think im ready to get back to this, its been so long i have forgotten some of my plans but this time i am going to be more realistic so i am getting rid of the knife fish and reed eels.right now this is what i remember liking

rainbows
coolie loaches
glass cats
harlequin rasboras
corys
hatchets

i also have an empty 20 so anything that doesnt work can go in there

as for the other inhabitants i am interested in

crabs
frogs

ill post more as soon as my brain starts workn again

i guess i have to ask a question to get an answer, huh i guess i dont have one but i am looking for opinions

ok i did some research just for fun and am now interested in these. the ones with question marks are not permanant

crabs-fidler?
frogs
green snake?
long tailed grass lizard?
land snails?
praying mantis?
dragon fly and dragon fly larvae?

im not asking if every single one of these will work together but how well they will do individually in my environment and maybe a group of some compatabilities.

i know this is really confusing but bear with me:%)

Fiddler Crabs - Uca spp. do not do well in full freshwater. Look into Indian rusty crabs (see http://www.franksaquarium.com) and the like.

Frogs - Many species are suited to your setup. Do you have terrestrial, aquatic, or semi-aquatic species in mind?

Green Snake - If a basking spot is provided, yes. However, other organisms may be consumed, and humidity may pose problems. Take potential adult size (100+ cm for some species) into account.

Long-Tailed Grass Lizard - Exactly what species do you have in mind by this?

Land Snails - Almost certainly.

Praying Mantis - May consume smaller cohabitants.

Dragonfly & Damselfly Larvae - The former, depending on size, may consume small fish. Damselfly larvae are generally more innocuous.

Shrimp and dwarf sirens may interest you as well.

Last edited by Veneer at 30-Oct-2005 00:11

crabs - i couldnt find any information about "nigerian crabs" (blue body, red legs) but maybe u know a little, if they are brackish i will drop it from the list

green snake - it might eat a mantis or dragonfly but otherwise it should be fine. i will provide some dead branches so it can climb http://www.aqualandpetsplus.com/Snake,%20Green.htm

praying mantis - could possibly be a problem fo dragonflys

frogs - fire belly, floating, dwaf, treefrog

long tailed grss lizard - Takydromus sexlineatus

shrimp,sirens - maybe, what are sirens?

dragonfly and larvae - i have a pond thats chalk full of breeding dragon flys, there are two sizes one being 3 inches and the other only 1 inch. the small ones are easy to catch so availability should not be a problem

Hey, Ven, have you ever made a purchase from said site (quality of stock, etc.)? They have some great stock, and that's the first time I've seen brachygobius aggregatus in a long while.