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I will try to explain. You could make a wall and have it support another piece that would be horizontal for the land. Take this L flip it backwards and then rotate it counter clockwise 90deg, that would be the front view.

i think im getting what ur saying but it doesnt make sense:%)

A small table maybe make the side not touching the glass solid. The top of the table is above the water and everything else is below thye surface. If the land was a solid mass it would take up alot of space that could otherwise be used for water. If the land had a look of being solid yet was hollow you would have more water to cerculate.

do u mean like thishttp://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/mike_palludarium_tank.html

my plan is to make a hollow casing of the land so i can add more fish and they have some where to hide and on one side of the casing will be a door so i can easily net a sick or dead fish

READ THROUGH WHOLE THREAD BEFORE POSTING

honestly ive answered the same question several times its driving me nuts!!!

hmmm........ i was sure no one had posted

Normally, people don't yell at someone who is trying to help them. Now, if you actually read my post, you would understand what I am trying to tell at you. Before you start telling other people what to do, talk a few lessons about listening from yourself.

Here's something that Veneer said before:

Lizards typically require a basking spot, and may, in such a setup, drown or succumb to fungal growth or bacterial infection instigated by a potentially untenable degree of humidity.

I really don't care how you are builting the palundarium, the point is that you are putting two incompadible kinds of animals together. If you were building a polar bear cage, would you put it in the desert? I doubt it. The same principle applies here. The lizards will get sick. That was all I was trying to tell you, but apparently you didn't want to heard that.

Please, don't yell at me when I try to help you.
- Dj :88)

i wasnt yelling at u it was more of a freindly annoyance and if wat u say is true someone might want to tell these people

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/mike_palludarium_tank.html

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/paludarium/paludarium5.html

http://expage.com/page/geckospaludarium

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003.cgi?&op=showcase&category=3&vol=-1&id=78

this lizard lives in 100% hummidity rain forests which i think is around the same as my paludarium

http://www.centralpets.com/critterpages/reptiles/lizards/LZD2722.shtml

some geckos and anoles also have similar humidity requirements

Last edited by resle at 16-Apr-2005 14:47

Of Anolis carolinensis:

Daytime temperature range of 80-96 degrees Fahrenheit with hottest spot in "basking" area of Anole’s tank. Nighttime temperature range of 75-85 degrees Fahrenheit. Can (but rarely fall outside these ranges by 10-15 degrees Fahrenheit). Humidity should be about 65% but at least 50% and not above 65% year round.

From http://www.repticzone.com/caresheets/659.html.

Common anoles are not typically "waterside" organisms; certain Neotropical rainforest anoles may be better suited to your setup but will require UVB lighting and a basking lamp.

One might wish to explore truly semiaquatic lizards, as Shinisaurus crocodilurus; such creatures likely will require a basking lamp, [possibly] UVB lights, and reptile-formulated vitamin supplementation, and may pose a risk to your fish. I must note that, speaking generally, lizards do tend to be quite "messy", representing a great strain on the capabilities of one's filter.


Last edited by Veneer at 16-Apr-2005 16:53

Some other herpetiles you might have interest in:

Fully aquatic:

Caecilians

Surinam toads]http://www.aqualandpetsplus.com/Frog,%20Pippa%20Pippa.htm[/link] (a confirmed fish-eater, though smaller species of the genus, as [link=P. carvalhoi, are available)

"Tentacled snakes" (aka 'fishing snakes'/'river snakes'), Erpeton tentaculatum - a fully aquatic species which attains a length of 60 to 90 cm. E. tentaculatum, a member of the "rear-fanged" Homolopsinae (a grouping within the Colubridae), hails from the still waters of Southeast Asia. Tentacle snakes possess enlarged teeth in the rear portion of their upper jaws, and an associated venom-producing gland (the virulence of which is presently unknown); however, they exhibit great reluctance to bite, and many U.S. states that otherwise prohibit private ownership of venomous serpents apparently have no such regulation against Erpeton.

[Note: The titular "tentacles" protrude alongside each nostril, and are apparently sensory in nature.]

Semi-aquatic:

"Indonesian floating frogs"



Last edited by Veneer at 16-Apr-2005 17:02

Last edited by Veneer at 16-Apr-2005 17:03

You might also wish to consider some of the larger species of freshwater shrimp.

well any way i dont think im ready to research terestrial animals yet anyway since i have barly finished planning

heres a new fish list

1 african knifefish (Xenomystus nigri)
2 reedfish
6 glass catfish
5 hatchets
6? cories (maze?,bronze?,albino?)

First all, *gives a standing ovation to veneer* You know your herps.

i wasnt yelling at u it was more of a freindly annoyance and if wat u say is true someone might want to tell these people

Well, I'm still not happpy being called an annoyance. Anyway, the people on that site are fish keepers. Even if some people on there do keep herps, they probably know more about fish than reptiles. I would take advice from a reptile expert. It's like asking babel or shini how to care for parakeets. You have to pick the right sources.

Like I've been saying before, common anoles (most likely, the ones in your area, I doubt you would be able to find a neotropical one easily) and fish are like ketchup and ice cream. They don't miexcept on scooby doo, but they have talking dogs on that show, so I would be a bit cautions about anything you see there). None of the fish you listed would normally live near a beach. The only kind of fish that would be good in a palundarium would be land/water fish, like mudskippers or snakeheads(although the latter owuld eat any kind of tankmates), or small fish that could thrive in a small about of water which you will inevitably wind up with. Frogs are the best choice for a palundarium, but very few lizards and some snakes (garter come first to my mind)would work too. The pot thing could work, but your putting alot of thought into an idea that has a limited amount of success. The land creatures will need alot more room.

I would suggest a snake habitat. You might be able to have a knife in there cause snakes are no pushovers. Or, if you did frogs of some sort, you could have alot of small frogs and fish.

good luck
- dj :88)

i didnt mean u were an annoyance i ment that having to repeat my self is an annoyance. the problem with snakes, though is that they are more likly to eat any other inhabitants i might put in there besides garder snakes, i dont think, would apreciate the humitity though it would be cool to have a legless pet that i can hold for a change, it has a less of a chance of working. despite what u say im still going to give it a shot, if they can do it y cant i

if i know alot about fish and reptiles whos to say that no one else does? maybe like me they have other forums that arnt related

now can some one reply about my fish list

the problem with snakes, though is that they are more likly to eat any other inhabitants i might put in there

That's not completely true. Obviously, if you put it with guppies or tetras, you'll have some problems. But, if you shoot for larger fish, say 4 - 6 in. you should be ok. Although they are long and can eat larger animals, they are very skinny and wouldn't be anble to take down a blue gourami, for example.

besides garder snakes, i dont think, would apreciate the humitity

Not true either, they live in lakes. If you have a mesh cover, you could make it work.

it has a less of a chance of working.

right now, you are running into alot of difficulty. I would say it would work o0ut better.

despite what u say im still going to give it a shot, if they can do it y cant i

If t0hat's what yo0u want, obviously I can't do anything about it. Nor would I want to. You are free to do whatever you want with your tank, even if I disagree with you. I was just saying what I thought would work out the best.

- dj :88)

Depending on the respective sizes of your knifefish/reedfish and catfish/hatchets, I'd be concerned about the potential for predation.

thats y snakes wouldnt work because they would definatly eat the hatchets while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

now can we focus on my fish list

thats y snakes wouldnt work because they would definatly eat the hatchets while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

I beg to differ - anoles and geckos are most certainly insectivorous (crocodile geckos are, I must note, theoretically capable of consuming fish).

thats y snakes wouldnt work because they would definatly eat the hatchets while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

I'd like to clarify something - by my original statement, I was expressing concern that your knifefish and reedfish might consume your catfish and hatchets.

I beg to differ - anoles and geckos are most certainly insectivorous (crocodile geckos are, I must note, theoretically capable of consuming fish).

but i said

while the lizards that i choose are herbivours

i didnt choose geckos or anoles

ive had reedfish before and they never ate any of the fish even the danios but knife fish on the other hand, ofcoarse i did choose cories that are atleast 2.5" long so...

wat if i got big cories and small reedfish/kinfefish or would they stil eat them later

Sorry, bin away for a few. Yes that is basically what I was trying to discribe. Only maybe you could put something around the pvc to make it more natural looking. Plenty of land for the amphibians and water for the fish. Best of luck I hope you are succesfull.

please answer, if u dont i will asume everything is right and start on it

i would really like to use live rock because it looks alot like pond foam and is pourus is there any way i could get some that doesnt have any saltwater creatures on it or does anybody know what kind of rock it is?

HELLO!!!......HELlo!!......Hello!......hello......hello, where is everybody?

also is it possibly to keep mangroves in freshwater?

I wish I could help, but I don't have a clue.

actually i think i can answer my own questions, base rock, i beleive, has no salt water creatures on it though i think its expensive. i think mangroves should work considering they either block the salt or secrete it from there leaves.

a few more questions

i would happily keep a snake or lizard as long as it doesnt eat fish or frogs and will willingly be held, any suggestions? does any one know of a good reptile forum? king snake's forums are to low tech and confusing

Last edited by resle at 23-Apr-2005 10:34

wat if i got big cories and small reedfish/kinfefish or would they stil eat them later

Much would depend on what species on cory you have in mind; your reedfish in particular might, as they matured, attempt to consume them (and possibly die in the process). However, such combinations are far from out of the question.

also is it possibly to keep mangroves in freshwater?

Theoretically, yes, but I wouldn't suggest it; they will likely outgrow your tank.

See this link.

Last edited by Veneer at 23-Apr-2005 23:38

as previously stated i have chosen maze, bronze and albino cories

i would happily keep a snake or lizard as long as it doesnt eat fish or frogs and will willingly be held, any suggestions? does any one know of a good reptile forum? king snake's forums are to low tech and confusing

i would really like to use live rock because it looks alot like pond foam and is pourus is there any way i could get some that doesnt have any saltwater creatures on it or does anybody know what kind of rock it is?

No, live rock is for marine use only.

well i think thats all the questions for now, construction will start soon so look out for operation river paludarium

Last edited by resle at 30-Apr-2005 21:29

well i think im ready to get back to this, its been so long i have forgotten some of my plans but this time i am going to be more realistic so i am getting rid of the knife fish and reed eels.right now this is what i remember liking

rainbows
coolie loaches
glass cats
harlequin rasboras
corys
hatchets

i also have an empty 20 so anything that doesnt work can go in there

as for the other inhabitants i am interested in

crabs
frogs

ill post more as soon as my brain starts workn again

i guess i have to ask a question to get an answer, huh i guess i dont have one but i am looking for opinions

ok i did some research just for fun and am now interested in these. the ones with question marks are not permanant

crabs-fidler?
frogs
green snake?
long tailed grass lizard?
land snails?
praying mantis?
dragon fly and dragon fly larvae?

im not asking if every single one of these will work together but how well they will do individually in my environment and maybe a group of some compatabilities.

i know this is really confusing but bear with me:%)

Fiddler Crabs - Uca spp. do not do well in full freshwater. Look into Indian rusty crabs (see http://www.franksaquarium.com) and the like.

Frogs - Many species are suited to your setup. Do you have terrestrial, aquatic, or semi-aquatic species in mind?

Green Snake - If a basking spot is provided, yes. However, other organisms may be consumed, and humidity may pose problems. Take potential adult size (100+ cm for some species) into account.

Long-Tailed Grass Lizard - Exactly what species do you have in mind by this?

Land Snails - Almost certainly.

Praying Mantis - May consume smaller cohabitants.

Dragonfly & Damselfly Larvae - The former, depending on size, may consume small fish. Damselfly larvae are generally more innocuous.

Shrimp and dwarf sirens may interest you as well.

Last edited by Veneer at 30-Oct-2005 00:11

crabs - i couldnt find any information about "nigerian crabs" (blue body, red legs) but maybe u know a little, if they are brackish i will drop it from the list

green snake - it might eat a mantis or dragonfly but otherwise it should be fine. i will provide some dead branches so it can climb http://www.aqualandpetsplus.com/Snake,%20Green.htm

praying mantis - could possibly be a problem fo dragonflys

frogs - fire belly, floating, dwaf, treefrog

long tailed grss lizard - Takydromus sexlineatus

shrimp,sirens - maybe, what are sirens?

dragonfly and larvae - i have a pond thats chalk full of breeding dragon flys, there are two sizes one being 3 inches and the other only 1 inch. the small ones are easy to catch so availability should not be a problem

Hey, Ven, have you ever made a purchase from said site (quality of stock, etc.)? They have some great stock, and that's the first time I've seen brachygobius aggregatus in a long while.

crabs - i couldnt find any information about "nigerian crabs" (blue body, red legs) but maybe u know a little, if they are brackish i will drop it from the list

Those would be Cardisoma spp., and may eat fish and frogs or tear up plants. Indian rusty crabs, by all accounts, are much less aggressive.

green snake - it might eat a mantis or dragonfly but otherwise it should be fine. i will provide some dead branches so it can climb http://www.aqualandpetsplus.com/Snake,%20Green.htm

Just be sure the substrate is not too damp and lighting requirements are satisfied.

praying mantis - could possibly be a problem fo dragonflys

May even consume small frogs. Common species are rather short-lived.

frogs - fire belly, floating, dwaf, treefrog

All fine choices; I'll direct you to some more specific species profiles.

shrimp,sirens - maybe, what are sirens?

For more information on shrimp, look to the species profiles at http://www.petshrimp.com.

Information on sirens is available at http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Pseudobranchus/Pseudobranchus.shtml. I've seen specimens with much more ounced yellow banding than those depicted on that site.

Hey, Ven, have you ever made a purchase from said site (quality of stock, etc.)? They have some great stock, and that's the first time I've seen brachygobius aggregatus in a long while.

I ordered three Indian yellow-banded shrimp (Macrobrachium duarii) and was rather pleased with the outcome: the specimens - and aquatic plants for them to cling to - were, along with a heat pack, crumpled newspaper, and styrofoam "peanuts," packed within an insulted shipping box. Needless to say, I experienced no casualties. Frank went so far as to offer an additional specimen at half the original cost.

Last edited by Veneer at 30-Oct-2005 11:30

do u have any species profiles for the indian rusty crab? i tried googling it including its scientific name but all i got were recipes

Last edited by resle at 30-Oct-2005 12:29

since both the snake and lizard would need a basking spot is there a chance the frogs etc. would dry up if they sit under it or are they smart enough to realize when they are dying?

list
1? green snake or 1-3? long tailed grass lizards

3? firebelly "toads", 3? floating frogs, 5?dwarf frogs, 2? tree frogs(suggested species?), 1? firebelly newt

3? rusty crabs

?? shrimp




Last edited by resle at 30-Oct-2005 15:30

ok theoretically if there was nothing that would eat them would poison arrow frogs be ok, would they drown or intoxicate the water?

Resle - I wouldn't be much help with your specific questions but I just wanted to point you to some paludarium aquascaping from the 2004 AGA Aquascaping contest, just to show you some great set-ups and maybe give you some ideas. You could have a look at previous years as well, and this years' results will be out in about a week.

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi?&Scale=258&op=ishowcase&category=3&vol=-1

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. - Oscar Wilde

alright lets get things rolling again. i have gathered all fish i like and consider possible even if remotly

upside down catfish
kuhli loach
banjo catfish
glass catfish
harlequin rasbora
bumblebee goby
dwarf puffer
red rainbowfish
bosesemani rainbowfish
turquoise rainbowfish

im gonna have corys but theres so many that dont stand out from the others which makes it hard to choose. any suggestions?

revised list
8 kuhli loach
3 red rainbowfish
3 bosesemani rainbowfish
3 turquoise rainbowfish
10 hatchetfish

add ons if enough space
4 banjo catfish
6 glass catfish
8 harlequin rasbora
1 upside down catfish

clean up crew
3 rusty crab
? asst. snail, suggestions?
? corydora, suggestions?
? suggestions?

revised list
8 kuhli loach
4 albino kuhli loach
2 black kuhli loach
4 banjo catfish
1 upside down catfish
3 red rainbowfish
3 bosesemani rainbowfish
3 turquoise rainbowfish
10 hatchetfish
? corydora, suggestions?

add ons if enough space
6 glass catfish
8 harlequin rasbora

clean up crew
3 rusty crab
? asst. snail, suggestions?
? corydora, suggestions?
? suggestions?

questions, concerns, comments?

well atleast now i know somebody actually reads this thread, but seriously these are fish questions and this is a fish forum so why am i not getting any answers?

got a blueprint of the aquarium looking down


http://img278.imageshack.us/img278/5517/55galpaludarium0ip.jpg

Last edited by resle at 20-Nov-2005 11:52

ooooo get you !

Thats just asking for it well here ya go...

Poison frogs are a seriously, seriously bad idea with fish, while they arent aggressive or anything fish will have a go at them obviously this could cause a poison release of catastrophic dimensions, even though on non-natural diets the toxicity diminishes to some extent, taking it out of the league of absolutely bloody lethal to just mildly dangerous. They are actually lousy swimmers too and drowning in a few inches of water is a real possibility. They absolutely suck when it comes to having strength enough to not get sucked into filter intakes or carried off with the outflow..

Ok if your paludaria is less than about three feet high you can basically forget any arboreal lizards and geckos, people do it but thats because theyre generally lizard abusing morons. Arboreal reptiles often panic and drown when kept in paludaria. I was a herpetologist way before I was into aquaculture so basically i'll crucify anyone who argues with me on that one . Most reptiles are not suitable for paludaria because ambient humidity will reach up to 100% and this will cause fungal infections of the skin and lungs, most available species are not suitable, and those that are semi-aquatic will generally add fish and amphibians to their diet quite happily.

Id go with shrimp over crabs as they are less likely to tear each other apart should they get hungry or have territorial disputes.

There are a number of small tree frogs that will not eat fish and are accustomed to high temperatures and not likely to fry themselves on basking spots. - green tree frogs , barking tree frogs, gray tree frogs and even the truly spectacular red-eyed tree frog (agalychnis callidryas ), would be suitable, although you should always screen off the bulbs themselves. Frogs like to jumps and stick. ( is that sizzling frog I smell?)Avoid the temptation to buy flying frogs because Ive found they will eat almost anything they can catch, even underwater.The same can be said of most larger species like whites tree frogs, for an arboreal amphibian you will find they can be very effective at fishing for anything much smaller than an adult platy. Basically the bigger the frog/toad, the bigger the risk.

Sirens are serious predators, fish wont last 2 minutes with them.A lot of them also are prey for fish , having tiny arms (like axolotls, true sirens and amphiumas for example) and to some extent feathery gills and soft flesh. Many fish will either be eaten by them or nip bits off them.When they die, many of them release cyanide compounds that will totally annihilate any fish in the water.

Crocodile skinks do eat fish and are very nervous and aggressive, some even bite their keepers. Most stress out and die if not given enough retreats to hide in. A lot of keepers mistake their tendancy to freeze instead of showing a more normal stress response like fleeing as a sign that they are peaceful and docile. The truth is pretty far from it, they often die while being handled from shock, If it was a foot longer its personal choice would probably be to tear your face off. They will also foul the water really badly with messy feedings and generally scrabbling about making a mess and taking enormous periodic dumps full of fish oils.They are considered a most difficult species by most herpetoculturalists and an amateur aquarist will find his knowledge on the subject irrelevant and totally insufficient.

Dont treat the reptiles as the afterthought part of a paludaria because you may find the challenge of meeting their care needs much more difficult than those of fish. Are you conversant with reptile medicine , vitamin supplementation, the correct frequency of lighting for the production of vitamin d3, and support of the calcium metabolism, and thermal gradients? Do you even know what MBD is? Are you used to combatting environmental stress in reptiles? Do you like most people seriously underestimate the space requirements for lizards?

I would seriously reconsider using them in paludaria, amphibians give you a bit more scope. In a paludaria you can expect four or five times the likelyhood of disease due to the overly moist and constantly hot conditions. They can quickly become total bacterial playgrounds. For the most part the only truly successful paludaria ive seen for the long term inhabitants tend to be HUGE, this includes significant ventilation, and plenty of escape areas. This cost in terms of heating bills, the evaporation makes maintaining water conditions tricky, and the vitamin supplements and the reptiles themselves can cause pollution.Im talking 500 gallon plus here. You will see small display paludaria here and there but the sad truth is that most people couldnt give a damn for the longevity of the reptiles living in those paludaria. The most successful paludaria setups for reptiles usually contain turtles, thai water dragons etc, and very little else. For reptiles species specific paludaria are best.It is very difficult to balance the needs of reptiles and fish together without some serious space, requiring as you will a number of different micro-environments. I wouldnt tend to keep snakes in community settings because quite simply their physical appearance usually panics the hell out of fish, lizard and amphibian alike. It should also be noted that a lot of lizards and snakes will not usually kill other animals they dont intend to eat, but there is a but, and a big one than that. Sometimes and just sometimes even vegetarian lizards and specialist feeding snakes will kill other animals and not eat them, presumably because theyre bored or just feeling bugged or territorial. I had a brown anole that would kill things and not eat them, what he didnt kill he would make love to , and then kill them during or after, fish, bug , lizard,or frog, it would have made no difference. A green iguana that killed just about anything on sight, including locusts, next doors cat ,its mate, a red eared turtle (adult) and had a penchant for deliberately tail whacking lightbulbs that came one a few seconds before he was precisely in the mood to wake up. He ate nothing of his kills, he was quite happy with his veggies and commercial diets. I even had a tokay gecko that attacked anything simply because it moved, and that includes fish near the water surface.


Its a grand idea but when it comes to actually implementing it, maybe you might wanna curb your enthusiasm a little bit.

Having said that I find one of the easiest ways to create a setup is to start with a large or even purpose built tank, and create a single or series of glass or vinyl backboards which has feet or an "l" bend in it to support the weight, then cover it in an inch thick layer of resin or silicone and literally place rocks and wood densely into it, this way should you have a removable terrestrial portion that can be cleaned at will without having to remove the fish. im not a big fan of sponge, its a poison storing, bacterial issue waiting to happen. Those backdrop filters you can find on the net are basically just a gimmick for beginners. Managing the water in those setups is mostly impossible a few months in, and its a con to get you to buy new backgrounds.

I have done a few tanks with glass partitions in, and they too have worked rather well.

Any reason you want just one upside down catfish? Gobies can be very territorial even if they are tiny, and snails are generally lousy cleaners btw.Not sure id risk mature crabs with small kuhli's or gobies either.




Last edited by longhairedgit at 20-Nov-2005 21:35

thank you thank you! i dont care if my plans are completly screwed up because atleast someone answered! so what ur saying is that i cant even use a HoB filter? im a little confused

No, wasnt saying that, a hob could even be used to create a waterfall or something, which would up the oxygenation etc.I was referring to those filters you can get that have a sculpted background made of foam that is actually used for filtration. Obviously they suck.

If you do wanna run a paludarium a few red eyed tree frogs and some tetras would be awesome, but id choose it to be 3 feet high, at least 2 to 3 feet long and 1-2 feet deep. Little tanks are no good. Id probably go for an external filter to save space though.

boy red eyed tree frogs would be great if i could afford it *sighs* now i dont know what to put in the terrestrial part besides frogs

ok, i dont wanna be the cause of a downer here, gimme the dimensions of the maximum sized tank you can afford and ill run through a number of possible setups with you,how to modify it, recommend species , equipment etc. If you wanna learn how to keep reptiles and amphibians I can teach you and/or recommend some good literature both books and online versions,places to find equipment, species that will suit your needs etc. Since this is a fish forum better contact me via email, if you want my addy, ask for it .

wow! what a genourous offer, but at the moment i cant afford any new aquarium what with christmas on its way the problem with getting a new aquarium though is that then i dont have anything to do with my 55. i could ask for one for christmas but i dont think id get it im afraid its either the 55 or nothing... although i do have an empty 20g tall and an empty 5g but i doubt anything like this could be done with them

(in inches)
55=48L x 12.5w x 21h
20=24L x 12.5w x 17h

Last edited by resle at 26-Nov-2005 10:01

ok. the 55 has a bit of potential, whats your budget like?

non existant at the moment but should get better after christmas, i was going to do research through winter and then start construction in the spring