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Hi all, I just purchased a used tank, stand etc and acquired some fish. Original post was about moon lights but I thought I'd ask about water conditions on a cycling tank. http://fishprofiles.com/files/threads/34517.1.htm?0#

My question here is my water levels, although normal for a cycling tank, I think, I just want reassurance from the experts here or a hey your hurting the fish. Everyone is very active and always hungry, feeding almost too little to reduce ammonia levels below.

Test kit is an API Master kit 5ml liquid.
PH 7.4ppm
Ammonia 3/4ppm hard to read on the test card but getting high
Nitrate 9/10ppm again reading on the card
Nitrite 1ppm

Are these normal for readings a cycling tank with alot of fish? Again I didn't really want to cycle with fish but it was a purchase deal, tank and fish or watch the fish get flushed The family had to move, military, and wanted a good home for the fish.

If you didn't read the other thread I have 4 full size silver dollars, 2 full size angels, 2 giant Danios, a few 5 Molly's and tetras (total 5) an ADF and black knife sword fish.

The tank has been setup for about 3 weeks with some gravel from an established tank.

Everyone seems happy and healthy water temp is 78-80* constant just wondering how much longer it's going to take to cycle.

Thanks
Bill.

55 gallon FW API Master Liquid Test Kit.
4 Silver Dollars, 2 Angles, 2 Danios, 6 Tetras, 4 dwarf Guramis, 2 powder blue and 2 red and 1 Black knife Started 5-25-07

I'm a bit worried about that ammonia still showing up after 3 weeks, especially if there was gravel from an established used.

What's you're usual maintence proceedures? NitrAte looks fine, and I'm guessing NitrIte is headed down. You might be over cleaning the tank causing the ammonia to still be present. Other causes could be overfeeding before the biofilter has had a chance to catch up.

Good job on saving them from a flushing .

^_^

With a newly step-up tank with a large stock bio-load, IMO you should take reading everyday to watch the levels until the cycling process is complete. I would suggest this be done when you have time to do a WC if the levels are to high. Generally, it takes 6 to 8 weeks to fully cycle a tank, so this can be a long road but will worth it. I know you stated that you use some gravel from an established tank but that's just a good starter the cycling process. It still have to build up for the size of the tank and bio-load. You may want to pick up some cycle or bio-spira and add it to the filter directly. Also when you do a WC DO NOT vacuum all the gravel as a matter of fact I would only vacuum the gravel once a month until the cycling is complete, the rest of the time a would just remove the lower part of the tank water. After the cycling is complete than you can start with a week rotation of vacuuming the gravel. In other words divide the tank footprint (bottom of the tank) in to four sections and vacuum a different section with each WC. After, 4 weeks you will have vacuumed the whole tank while letting the bio colonies grow undisturb. Also, adding live plants from and established tank will help with cycling process.

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Thanks everyone for the input but I'm back with more questions, mainly colors. The Silver dollars are now getting a red outline to the anal fin, good thing I've read, meaning healthy and male so that's fine, correct? Next our Giant Danios now have red markings on the bottom of the tail fin (in the fin, not body), I've found nothing online about this marking, and finally today our angels are getting red markings just below the dorsal fin on the body, reaching the entire length of the fin, again no online reference I've found for this color change.

Everyone is happy, active, and I hope healthy. Is this new coloration just an adjustment to an new environment, good thing? These were rescued fish from a Cichlid tank and they did show the signs of fish abuse including bite marks on the silver dollars and missing (I have no idea what they are called but 1 arm on each of the angles is gone) Everyone has a healthy appetite wanting more food but I'm trying to limit food as the tank cycles as the ammonia levels are still too high. We have no live plants yet but do have some Romain Lettuce on a clip for the dollars to eat. The tetras like to nibble but don't really want any of it.

Water levels tonight are
Ammonia 4ppm
PH 7.6ppm
Nitrate 10ppm
Nitrite about .75/1.0ppm

I did a 20% water change 1 week ago and the Ammonia levels didn't drop much if any. I'm testing water every other day and will keep you posted, tap water is good, 7.6 PH and no Ammonia, Nitrates or Nitrites so that leaves fish and food causing the Ammonia.

I hope this is normal for the colors to come back in the fish, they are not being picked on by anyone and the most aggressive fish is an angel, picking on the largest dollar (just larger than a baseball) but that was very minor and stopped about 2 days ago.

Any input is welcome.

Thanks again

Bill.

**edit**

just found this in the hospital forum
A case of red streaks could be septicemia.... or, it could be ammonia burns. A goldfish with red streaks in his tail could be sick, or he could be suffering the effects of very high nitrates. Fish that are flashing or gasping for air could have parasites, but they could be dealing with nitrites. pH changes can cause flashing.


55 gallon FW API Master Liquid Test Kit.
4 Silver Dollars, 2 Angles, 2 Danios, 6 Tetras, 4 dwarf Guramis, 2 powder blue and 2 red and 1 Black knife Started 5-25-07

The ammonia is awfully high. I would do water changes anytime it's over 3ppm. I hope the red streaks aren't ammonia burns. The water changes may slow down the cycling process a bit but may make the fish more comfortable.

I'm definately not an expert since I am dealing with the same type of situation, but from everything I've researched, 4ppm is too high if kept that way for too long. Just some thoughts.

Good Luck!

Thanks ELT. I did another 20% change today and it's ~2ppm now. Everyone is still very active, I too hope it's not ammonia burns or worse, but it's only happening to our rescue fish (the red color). Hopefully in the next week or so the tank will finish cycling even though there have been 2 20% wc's.

I'll change water every day if it's necessary but want the tank to cycle.

There is SO MUCH contradicting information on Ammonia levels you get from the LFS to the internet and even on this site (although this site has been the best resource I've found) Some say a 7ppm is the panic point (on a cycling tank) but that is toxic to anything but rocks IMO. I'm reading water levels everyday now and will be doing WC's as necessary, I will not resort to chemicals (yet...)

55 gallon FW API Master Liquid Test Kit.
4 Silver Dollars, 2 Angles, 2 Danios, 6 Tetras, 4 dwarf Guramis, 2 powder blue and 2 red and 1 Black knife Started 5-25-07

I'm glad you got that Ammonia down Ram. I can tell you, I am so stressed and impatient waiting for my tank to cycle, I think once I see those 0 readings, I'm gonna throw a party!

I'm heading into week 3 and am praying for some sign that the cycle is progressing or at least see my Nitrites go down some. The water changes are killing me. 20% on a 75g tank is quite a bit, done with a 5 gallon water jug. lol I've never lugged so much water in my life!

Good luck and I hope everything goes well for you. Let us know!

ELT888, you really need some buckets and a siphon (gravel vac) for your water changes... Mine have gone very smoothly, the two I have done since medicating for Ich over the past 9 days.

However, I was under the impression that it's best not to do water changes while cycling the tank as it will slow down the cycling process? The only reason I did my two WC was due to the Ich meds.

I share your impatience. I am into week four and my ammonia is just now hitting 3 ppm, I am expecting that the nitrites will be appearing soon, then the joyous 0 readings for both!!!

ELT / SCOTTF I think you both should look into a python for your water changes, they are not that expensive and can be found online.

Check this out, they go up to 100 FT in length
http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18377/si2176728/cl0/pythonnospillcleanandfill50wfreealagemitt

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

thanks fm, I have been kinda checking them out... I am in the market for a 55gal, and if/when that happens, I think the python will be a must!

I'll agree with the Python for WC's, our Pets Mart will internet price match, just bring in a printed price and they will match, I got our 25' for $15 or $19, not their $30.

Back to water levels, even though our Ammonia is still high ~2ppm I was almost a grandfather of 400+ angelfish yesterday. We had some company over, we were looking in the tank and one of the angels was acting funny kinda sliding up and down the filter tube, soon little yellow/orange eggs started sticking on the tube as we watch in total amazement within minutes the tube was covered. I quickly sent the wife to get a tank separator and in the 15 minutes she was gone mom and dad had eaten all the eggs Oh well I wasn't ready for that many babies yet but will be in the future. So I guess our fish are happy It's me that's stressed about the levels.

Back to checking water levels again.

Thanks everyone

55 gallon FW API Master Liquid Test Kit.
4 Silver Dollars, 2 Angles, 2 Danios, 6 Tetras, 4 dwarf Guramis, 2 powder blue and 2 red and 1 Black knife Started 5-25-07

Considering they'd be born into an uncycled tank you're lucky mum and dad ate all the eggs. Even just a bit of ammonia would not have helped the fry.

Just wanted to point out at this stage that any WC's done should only be WC's leave the gravel alone until the tank is cycled. That's where your largest bacterial population is at this point you do not want to eliminate them!

^_^

The eggs wouldn't have hatched in that much ammonia anyway. The parents might even have known the eggs were damaged and will normally eat any dead or fungus covered eggs before they ruin the rest. If they spawned under those conditions they'll spawn again. Just fix the water quality and you'll have healthy eggs but you might have to move fast to keep the other fish from eating them.

Part of your problem may be that your tank is over stocked. I believe you said it was a 55g. The black knife is going to get quite large if it isn't already and all the silver dollars together add alot of fish as well. That right there is probably getting close to enough stock for that tank. Then you add in the rest and even with a cycled tank you'd have to stay up on water changes to keep the water quality in good shape. With an uncycled tank you are probably going to have to step in and do twice weekly water changes for awhile to keep things under control. After that the tank will probably require weekly water changes and gravel vacs. If you really want the angels to raise fry and take some of the pressure off this tank setup I'd suggest another tank. Even a 29-30g would probably be enough if all you had in there was the pair of angels and their offspring. It's also alot more fun to watch cichlids tend to their eggs and raise their own fry than to remove the eggs to raise in a seperate tank.

Water changes on a 55 aren't too bad. It wasn't until I tried water changes on a 90g that I decided buckets and plastic siphon tubes were a bit too much work.

I do have a battery-operated siphon to get the water out. It's lugging the water that is the killer. Also, lifting the bottle to put water back in. I'm only 5' so I have to lift it to my shoulder to get it in the tank. I have to get used to doing 15 to 20 gallon changes on the 75g tank instead of the 3 to 5 gallons I did on my little 20g tank. Never knew my new tank would be such a workout!

I did see the python in the store just this weekend. I have seen them there before but I thought they were just regular siphons. Now that I really looked at them, gonna have to get one! They are really pricey at the place I looked so I will have to look around or try on-line. May take me a while to get one, the new tank has been tapping the funds. lol

This is just for gravel cleaning and cycling, right? You can't use it to put water back in because it has to be treated, correct?

By the way, I have not done any gravel vacs since I have setup the tank. I'm trying to nurture that sweet bacteria!

My levels have been steady for a week now:
Ammonia - 0.25ppm
Nitrite - 2.00ppm
Nitrate - 10.0ppm

I have been doing water changes every other day to try and get the Nitrites down, but they don't seem to be working. Does everyone think I can stop doing water changes if the levels stay where they are? The fish don't seem to be showing any signs of distress. Since I test the water everyday, before and after any water changes and am still not seeing any changes, I am wondering if the water changes are stalling the cycle.

All thoughts and opinions are appreciated.

Hi,
The Python can be used for draining/filling the tank
and/or also used for vacuuming the gravel.
Because you have no plants in the tank, I would not
let the nitrate go past the 10 that you have now.

When the tank is cycled, (0 - ammonia, 0- nitrite) then
you should also include vacuuming the gravel as part of
your weekly water changes. Look at your tank and mentally
divide the tank into 4 sections and then each week as you
do a water change, vacuum a different section of the
gravel, that way, over a month's time, you will have
cleaned the entire tank, and done four water changes as
well.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Frank,

I do have plants in the tank. How does that effect what I need to do? I haven't tested yet today, but as I stated before, nothing has moved in a week. Nitrates have been steady at 10 for many days now.

How do you use the python to add water back to the tank? Don't you have to declorinate it first? If the python is hooked up to the faucet, how do you add the chemicals?

Thanks Frank.

PS...You are a Plant Guru!

Hi,
When looking at the tank mentally divide the non-planted
parts of the tank into 4 sections and clean "A" section
at a time. Push the business end of the siphon into the
gravel straight down to the glass bottom, or if you are
using a UGF, push the mouth of the siphon right down to
the filter plate.

If you look at a Python brand siphon, you will see a
green plastic fitting that connects to the sink tap.
The hose connects to the side of the fitting.
The bottom of that fitting is where the water is
directed out into the sink.
The bell like plastic bottom is a collar that
is actually the valve. When turned CCW it drops down and
opens a passage for the water to run into the sink.
When you turn the collar CW, the fitting rotates up,
closing off the drain, and the water is directed into the
hose and out into the tank.

I have my tank set so that when I drain off the water, I
have marked the right back corner glass at 1 gallon
intervals down to the 50% point. Its a 30G tank so its
not a big deal. Larger tanks, you might want to do some
draining and then mark the tank at 10, 20, 30 and 50%
points. Its a PITA the first time, but once the tank is
marked you just stick the siphon in the tank and draw it
down to the point you want.

When filling the tank, I simply walk back to the tap
(don't forget to turn of the ON/OFF valve at the siphon
end) and set the water temperature as close to the tank
temperature as you can sense. That will bring you within
a couple of degrees and it won't affect the fish if you
are off a "tad" +/-. Then set the valve to fill, and walk
back to the tank. I pour in the right amount of chemical
for the amount of water I removed and am replacing, and
then I put the siphon head into the tank and open
the ON/OFF valve. The circulating currents of the fill
water as well as the filter return(s) will mix the
chemicals and that's the end.

PS, don't answer the phone while filling....

Frank



-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Ahhhh...I see Master of All Aquaria. (ELT bows with hands folded)
I will definately get a Python.

You did mention Nitrate levels and plants in the tank? Sorry to be a pest, but I am interested in how one effects the other?

Thanks for all your help and the phone tip, ha ha!

The Nitrate levels of your tank should be no higher than i believe 40ppm. So 10 is fine if the rest are 0 and you have a cycled tank. The plants use the nutrients to live on and I have been told that once you have an established planted tank you can actually increase the number of fish in the tank. HTH

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html