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I think he's wanting to euthenise the angel...

~Scott

Just stop it.

No more debating euthanization without starting a seperate thread. You are hijacking his post.'

If you feel the need to debate this furthur no personal attacks and try to be civil.

Koi

Empty chairs at empty tables, the room silent, forlorn.

'The fish usualy dies in the first 30-90 seconds'.Oh so they die and fresh water brings them back to life? If they mostly die in 30-90 seconds then why would you leave them in for an hour why not five mins then?
Firstly, could you provide a link where it shows clove oil is used in human patients as a general anestetic.
Secondly, i would not 'expect' drugs that have a certain effect on humans to have the same effect on fish.
" My guess is any vet would suggest you not keep fish if you feel that is harmless."
Wow thats harsh, seeing as i have only done this once in my life.

~Scott

Last edited by Koi Keeper at 17-May-2005 15:47

The Australian,
I still think you are missing the point entirely here.
It does NOT take the clove oil 1 hour to kill the fish.
The fish usually dies within the first few seconds (30-90 seconds), not an hour. It is just recommended to leave the fish for 1 hour to ensure that death has occured, as if you put the fish under, then immediately drop the fish into fresh water, the fish will come out of it. Exactly the same as the anesthesia Doctors administer to human patients to knock em out for surgery. This is totally painless to the human, so why would you expect an anesthetic that works exactly like that of the anesthetics we use on ourselves to cause the fish pain and suffering??
I myself have been in surgery a couple of times, and can tell you the post exposure effects of anesthesia are minimal, with no disorientation or confusion.
I would bet my money that the fish respond the same way to the clove oil, and in low doses, as stated before, it is used on Koi to administer surgical procedures, after which they are placed in a freshwater bath, and come out of it exactly in the same way people do after surgery.
Veterinarians swear by Clove Oil as a safe effective way to anesthetize fish and amphibians and reptiles for surgery, and also as a kind and gentle way to Euthanize a fish.
I think you had better contact a VET or a Physician before you say being killed by getting hit with a hammer doesnt cause pain. My guess is any vet would suggest you not keep fish if you feel that is harmless.


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Fair enough. To each his own, I guess.

Thank you very much this is what i've been waiting for you to say . The thing is I dont know and can't possibly know, but, neither can you. Just by the fishes behaviour we can't tell if it is stresed out and if so for how long. But there is a possibility that they are concious and stressed for an hour. This is why choose the very quick method that i can accurately tell how long the fish is under stress.

~Scott

Ok so once the clove oil is applied the fish can not controll its body movement. It is still able to breath ect because these lower brain functions are the last to shut down when the brain is under anesthetic attack. Just because it cannot move does not mean that it is not concious seeing what is around it and being paralised for around an hour before it dies. This would cause stress and confusion for an extended period of time. This is why I would choose the much quicker method. Once again your example if flawed as a person I would understand that i would be paralised and then die so it would not stress me the fish on the other hand would not understand what is happeneing.

~Scott

Actually, the fish falls limp nearly instantaneously following the administration of the clove oil.
Realistically speaking, would you rather be beaten to death by a hammer or lulled to sleep?

Im not doing it for my convenience (i've only had to do this once) just that i think 10secs and its all over, good. Fish slowly loosing functions confusion over long periods, worse...

~Scott

The quickest method and the most humane method are two different things altogether. Way to sacrifice compassion for convenience.

I also do not believe the SAE was the underlying issue with the angel. If he had discovered the angel was palatable, he would have done so long ago.

Cheers for Cup o'Noodles

I completely agree.


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I suggested returning the angel to the store thats what i thought he ment.

That's not the way it sounded to me. He said that he "couldn't give it away". Who would give away a sick fish if he was talking about the angel?

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

150 litretank containing corys, guppys, pencilfish, rasboras and two stunning angelfish. Or at least one of them is stunning. The other has what I suspect is the onset of finrot. Fins looking tatty and a couple look bloodstreaked. Have tested water:

Ammonia 0.4 mg/l
Nitrite 0.1 mg/l
Nitrate 12.5 mg/l
PH 8.5.
Temp 25C

Angelfish have been together for few months but smaller one (healthy one) introduced after. Have noticed smaller one bullying larger one (poorly) but most of time they just hang out together.

Questions: Is it finrot? What could be causing it? Why has my Ammonia spiked (introduced 4 fish at weekend?)? How can I reduce Ammonia levels?

Thanks people.

The SAE wasn't trying to eat him. He was trying to suck the Angels slime coat. Still not a good thing.

Are you sure this is an SAE. Doesn't sound like SAE behaviour to me but does sound a lot like CAE (Chinese Algae Eater) aggression.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Could this have been the cuplrit all along? I have whisked the algae eater out. What's the quickest and most humane way to euthanase? (I can't give him away and my Q tank is being used).

Am I the only one who has a problem with euthanizing healthy fish? It's a fish's instincts to pick on and kill sick/dying fish, because they attract predators. Just give the SAE to the LFS, they will take him. There is absolutely no need to kill him.

And with the SAE gone (not killed), you can begin treating the angelfish.

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Well its his choice personaly I just go for the quickest method...

Clove Oil is commonly used by Fish Vets to put Koi to sleep for surgical procedures. It is well know as an anesthetic, and is often used on the ball of a cue-tip to ease tooth pain because of its numbing effect.
In low doses, the Clove Oil just puts a fish to sleep. In high doses it causes sleep, then death.
It is used in the exact same way that the drug we commonly use to euthanize cats and dogs is.
The reason you leave it in for an hour is because the effects can be reversed if the fish is returned to clean water quick enough (why its used as an anesthetic). An hour ensures that the fish has recieved enough of a dose to put it to sleep peacefully, forever, at which point it can be buried or flushed.


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Yeah one hour? Thats certainly better then five seconds...
I don't want to turn this into an argument about the best way to do this but who told you clove oil was the best way to do it? How do you know they feel no pain?

~Scott

NO you dont have to use a hammer

Go to your local pharmacy and ask for Clove Oil.
Mix 1 part clove oil to 5 parts water pop fish in, cover container and wait about 1 hour. This puts the fish to sleep peacefully with no pain.
I would also think your angelfish are unhappy in such a high PH.
To lower it buy Fluval Peat Granules, and add about half the box to your filter. Make sure you put them in a nylon bag first so they dont go everywhere. Check your PH in 3 days and see where it is at.
Angels do best in a pH of around 6.6-7.0


Last edited by Koi Keeper at 17-May-2005 15:44

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