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Thanks Cory.

I actually stopped by a brandnew petsmart. They are just coming into my area (Long Island).

They did not have any medicated food.

This is a really long shot and it probably will sound stupid, but are any plants toxic if eaten.

I just noticed him picking at a Hygrophila Sunset. Which is weird anyway since he's barely eating.

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If you have a Petsmart around you, you will see this, BUT it is packaged in a rectangular vacuum package that is blue and red. :

http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806679&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1112831511220

If you have the ability to quarantine, it may be a good idea - so that you can focus on the sick fish, and protect the others. If your water quality is good as your numbers indicate, use as much of your original tank water as you can to fill up a container. Do so without depleting more than 25-30%. He looks like a big boy, so I don't know if you have anything to q-tine him in. Avoid any abrupt changes in temp when adding additional water. A rubbermaid bin from the dollar store works well. Just put a few airstones in if you have some spare pumps and a fake plant.

Did you have any luck finding Furacyn? Someone else here is using it to treat a puffer and it seems to be working. It is safe for ALL fish including scaleless and sensitive fish. I have used it in my 20 long without adversely affecting plants. Kanacyn is another, but I'm not sure how safe it is at full strength with sensitive fish. Other sources of Nitrofurazone include Jungle Fungus Clear and Furan-2, but both have components that can be harmful to plants (acriflavine/methyl blue).

Good luck - it does sound like a systemic infection. If so, he is in trouble without immediate action. What is so bad about internal infections is that you often get little or no outward signs. By the time you do, internal damage is happening.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Apr-2005 18:57

I definitely see more veins around the mouth and where fins meet body, so that would indicate infection. Haven't seen any of the anticbacterial medicated food in the lfs around me.

Last edited by tetratech at 06-Apr-2005 18:41

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I know pH drops can cause them to lurk at the surface, as can nitrites, parasites, and low o2. If he is gasping, I'd drop in an airstone for now. It will lower your co2 and raise your pH a little, but I'd be more concerned with saving the fish.

Its still smacking of an internal infection to me, but it is hard to say. At least with the medicated food, you don't have worry about fouling the tank. If it is an infection and it gets to the point that he can't eat, his chances go down because the waterborne meds just won't work as well for systemic infections as oral can.

I'm still interested in respiration rate. Is it faster than usual? Flukes can cause a fish to pipe for air at the surface if in the gills, but I believe you would also see the fish flicking, especially if they were also on the body and the fins. In any event, if flukes are involved, infection is also likely.

Look very closely at the fins. Can you see many veins? Or, does the fin look like it is lightly blood stained? All the more reason to suspect infection if it is "yes" to either.

At the very least I'd add some small measure of salt. The plants won't like it, but at a low dose they may tolerate it. Low dose would be like 1 Tbsp per 5 gallons, predissolved, then slowly added throughout the day. This would restore electrolytes if they are being lost with whatever is happening to the surface. Any openings, scrapes, no matter how small, can cause them to suffer osmotic shock. I still don't think it has anyhting to do with the mixture you've made.



Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Apr-2005 12:00

Just noticed the fish is jutting around and hitting the glass hard.

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Maybe a pic will help.

http://client.webshots.com/photo/270980865/316132661nPVhCD

Hovering at top of tank not moving much.


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He differently looks like he's trying to get air. In fact the top of his head/back is out of the water.

My kh is 3.5, ph 7, so I don't see what the problem is.
I did a 20% water change last nite when I saw this. Maybe I should do another one and get an airstone in there.

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Is he gasping at the surface? If so, look at the gills. ARe they moving rapidly?

Just for a sense check, what is your kH and pH? See what the co2 level is based on this. I didn't plug your numbers in, I think 3.5 and 7.0. That should be fine.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

What about fertilizers? Maybe give them a rest after a water change to dilute.

I don' think it is the mixture, I'm doing the same.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Apr-2005 08:55

Thanks for all the info Cory,

I don't see any of that red spots a fish gets when he has an internal infection. It's more like a reddish hue. The fish is hanging out at the top and not moving around.

I made this co2 cocktail a few days ago.

Protein mix, sugar, baking soda, yeast. I wonder if something is getting into th tank. It's just a weird situation that this fish has been rock solid for a long time.


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Are you saying you have what looks like blood pinpoints at the base of the fins?

If so, and if the angel is still eating, hurry out and get some of the new Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food. That is your best bet, unless you have some other medicated food such as MediGold, MediKoi or possibly even the MetroMed.

Look closely at the belly for any signs of red dots, streaks or even what may look like blood pooling in the abdomen.

My thought is a systemic infection.

If the fish is not eating, my recommendation would be Furacyn by Aquatronics (orange box), if you can find some. The company is either moving or out of business and it is getting harder to find. It is safe for all fish including scaleless and sensitive AT FULL STRENGTH. If you cannot quarantine and must dose in your main tank and have other fish like scaleless or any kind of characins (i.e., tetras), you will have to be careful with full dosing of any kind of meds. Therein lies the advantage of quarantine or finding a med you can use at full strength. I've used Furacyn (100% Nitrofurazone) in my planted 20 gal without repercussions on the plants.

An alternative would be Fungus Clear, but I am not sure if that can be used at full strength with scaleless and sensitive. It also has acriflavine in it, which is not favorable to your plants.

YOu can also use a combination of Maracyn-2, but my experience with this drug, Maracyn, Sulfa, and Tetracycline is they make a real mess of the tank at full strength. YOu can see it killing off good bacteria as teh entire tank breaks down in a ghostly slime.

Nitrofurazone is more readily absorbed into the bloodstream than the others as well. You'll get better peak levels for a systemic infection. Anther would be Kanacyn or Kanaplex, which is Kanamycin Sulfate, both more difficult to find.

With nitrofurazone, it is best to dim the tank or limit lighting. Like tetracycline, it can be deactivated by light.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Thanks for the response SirBooks.

It's definitely not bites. He's bascially the king of the tank. This is coming from within.

Yes, he is definitely hanging out by the top more, but all my parameters look normal, no ph drop, nothing.



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Is there too little oxygen in the tank now? I really can't think of anything else, because I doubt that tankmates would be able to inflict such odd wounds. Is the angel breathing more quickly than normal, or hanging around near to the top?

Wait, doesn't CO2 cause a drop in pH? Maybe it has shock.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."