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Ok another quick run down. My tank is 100L roughly 28.5 Gallons. Bubble filter, filter, cold water tank, live plants, 5 goldfish (was 6 one already dead), 8 mountain minnows.

So after having one goldfish eaten to death by his other tank mates I had a white spot outbreak. After almost getting this under control I have another fish who is probably not going to make it past the night.

I have just come home from work to see the little fella sitting on thebottom of the tank. I have never seen a fish with what he has. The whole back half of him is white (kind of looks like the whole back half is dead he has no scales what so ever, a rip in his fins and its just sad to see I have already lost 1 goldfish and this will be number 2!.

I have had my tank set up for over a week. Any suggestions as to what could be wrong? Its probably past helping him now but I just dont know what it could be. He wasnt showing any signs of anything the last few days then i come home to this its very upsetting



Tracie-Maree

I also cant post any pictures as I am not a premium member.. Nor Can i get my 48 hour trial as I havent done 15 posts!

Tracie-Maree

use photobucket.com and link.

Unsure of cause, but it sounds like the whole back end of him has become necrotic. The scales sloughing is not great. If the white area looks dead and stiff, I'd suggest putting him down. You can't bring dead flesh back to life

Best guess with no other info is that it is bacterial, and fast. What did the one look like that was eaten to death? Normally, fish eat the dead, so if he was pre-dead or close to it, then he might show some more signs that could help narrow it down.

In the meantime, don't replace any fish that die (you are overstocked anyway, that might not be helping) and given the speed and severity of this, don't bother adding dye-based medications or antiseptic style things as I don't think they'll make any difference.

What model filter do you have and how often are you doing water changes?



For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Yeah i think i will get my partner to put him down when he gets home Im a wuss and cant bear to do it

The one that was eaten to death had wee bits missing on his fins. Think he came from the pet store like that but not very sure..

Im definately not restocking as cant bear the thought of losing more fish The type of filter is a Hailea HL-BT Internal Filter HL BT700 is the model number. The filter has been rinsed in their tank water when I got my first case of white spots which was about 3 days ago.

Tracie-Maree

I havent done a quarter water change yet but I am contemplating doing a gravel syphon. Have only had tank a week and the man at the LFS told me not to change the water for atleast 2 weeks as I would disrupt the bacteria...

Tracie-Maree

Ok so here is the photo..
http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr84/tnairn/Fish.jpg

Gosh its like worrying over a child

Is this likely to affect the rest of my fish? The others look healthy but this wee guy looked healthy yesterday to

Tracie-Maree

Hi,
Gal, it seems as though you are being given horribly
wrong advice by the person(s) at the LFS. You are getting
off to a bad start on several different fronts.

Goldfish are of the carp family. They prefer
cooler water, with large amounts of oxygen in it. They
are messy eaters, and in the process not only produce
fragments of food that will lay about on the bottom of
the tank to rot, they also produce huge amounts of liquid
(urea) and solid waste products. Yet, for all their size
they are not the hardy, robust, fish that one would think
they were. Actually they will survive just fine, for
decades, and with each year grow additional inches in size
within a rather narrow group of water parameters.

For good fish-keeping, each goldfish should have at least
5 gallons of water and a tank large enough for them to
swim actively and normally in.

These are not hardy enough fish for all of them to survive
the establishment of the Nitrogen Cycle.

As the fish eliminate waste (urea and solid waste) the
ammonia will build up in the tank reaching the point where
it kill the fish. But, first it will scar their gill plates
and even their bodies. If you have ever had children or
seen a baby still in diapers, with a old wet diaper on it,
when you remove the diaper the babies skin will be red.
That is an ammonia burn. Ammonia is a component of the
urea. In a cycling tank, the ammonia can read as much
as a 6 ppm (parts per million).
As the cycling process continues, bacteria form
that "eat" the ammonia, and change it to nitrite. It too
is deadly to fish as it interferes with the fish's ability
to extract oxygen from the water. It, can climb as high
as 10 ppm. Eventually, another bacteria forms that "eats"
the nitrate and produces nitrate. That, in small amounts
is not deadly to fish, and is actually beneficial to the
tank in small amounts. Plants take it up for growth.
In a planted tank the nitrate should be between 5 and 10ppm.
In a fish only tank (plastic plants) the nitrate should be
kept as close to zero as possible through rigorous
cleaning of the gravel and water changes.

This whole process of establishing the Nitrogen Cycle
takes 4-6 weeks depending upon the feeding, number type,
and size of the fish, temperature of the tank, and any
cleaning that is done during the process. Once started,
if you change out the water, you "dilute the soup" and
it takes longer for the various types of bacteria to grow
and colonize the tank.

When you get the chance, read the cautions at the top of
the HOSPITAL threads. In them it says that when asking
for solutions, one should provide clues as to what is
wrong. Pictures are excellent, and yours were good, but
we also need to know about the water, the size of the tank,
and the fish housed in it. In this case we are missing
the information about the water. We should know the
pH, GH, KH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate readings as these
will give us a tremendous wealth of information and allow
us to "check off" some specific problems that it is not,
and help us home in on what is.

I believe the water in the tank is probably the major
thing that is killing the fish. Another problem could be
the fish themselves. Look at the other fish in the tank
where your came out of. Are they laying around on the
bottom of the tank, or, at the surface gasping for air?
Do any have similar problems to yours (missing scales,
sloughing off skin, bleaching of scales? If so, then you
brought home sick fish and the cycling of the tank merely
made them worse and they died quicker.

If you don't have a comprehensive test kit such as this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4345+4454&pcatid=4454
Then I'd get one, and in the meanwhile take a clean container
of tank water to a different LFS, tell them your problems,
and ask them to test the water for you. In over 5 decades
of fish keeping, I've never run across a LFS that would
refuse to test the water for free. Of course, they do
expect you to purchase merchandise from them in return from
time to time.

Normally, in a tank being cycled when the fish start to
exhibit the problems that you have we do recommend water
changes to dilute the readings, but we don't know what
the readings are, nor do we know that you purchased healthy
fish in the first place. If the White Clouds, which is
what I suspect that the "Mountain Minnows" are, are healthy,
swimming normally, and eating normally, then I suspect you
have a bad batch of goldfish and I would not do any water
changes.
I would cut way way back on feeding.
On top of everything else, you could be over feeding
the fish and the left over food laying on the bottom
of the tank is rotting and helping to create the problem.
A fish's stomach is only as big as its eye. Darned
near every fish-keeper over feeds at first - its perfectly
normal. One just needs to learn to cut back and not give
in to these characters as they wiggle and beg at the
side of the tank when we approach it.

Goldfish:
http://goldfishcareguide.com/
White clouds:
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile46.html

These are two of hundreds of sites that will help you learn
about, and care for your fish.
I hope this helps ...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi Frank,

I dont have any PH readings as I dont have a test kit at home. The LFS here in Dunedin (New Zealand) charge to have the water tested and none are open when I am off work.

Yes they are White Cloud Mountain Minnows and yes they are perfectly healthy and swimming around my tank.

I caught one of my goldfish nipping the others today so I have put him in a seperate tank and added some Melafix to his tank as he has a tiny nip out of his fins.

The other fish are still in there main tank I have not touched there water nor done a water change or syphon etc. I have been down to the LFS today with the photo of my fish I posted on here. They put that down to fin rot and white spots that my fish had earlier. They did warn me when I brought my fish that they "could" get whitespot as its stress related and to watch for signs. I have been given some sort of Orange capsules which are called Furan-2 tablets which i need to put in my tank every day for four days then do a 25% water change this apparently should help.

I am hoping now that I have removed the nipper goldfish if the other fish are sick they should get better as they have nothing picking on them.

I am definately not overfeeding as I give them hardly any food as I already had been told there belly was only as big as there eye. I have cut back on feeding so they are getting hardly anything now.

Yes I have read the caution on the site but no I cannot provide any readings as I dont have a kit. Yes I should have one but at this stage I havent brought one. As to giving you clues I have given you a description to the best of my knowledge and a photo as well. I am not a fish expert far from it so I tried my best with the description.

At this stage I have treated the fish and now need to play the waiting game to see the outcome... Which I am hoping *fingers crossed* is a good one.

I have been back to the LFS several times to look at the tank I got my fish out of and they seem happy and normal. I throughly check the tank before I even buy my fish.

Tracie-Maree

I'm impressed that you managed to get Furan-2 in NZ! I'm sure it was hush hush, but still, that is a good start!

While the cycling thing is going to be a problem, and is very likely to hinder you when it comes to recovering the fish, I tend to think you have something nasty in there. Not many things can cause that much damage to a live fish in such a short period of time. I think, despite saying "finrot and white spot" that your LFS agrees, as Furan is a fairly punchy drug that you don't break out for minor rot and parasites. That is what I'd call big guns, it is the type of thing you use when there is no time to stuff around guessing at less harsh drugs.


Furan-2 will obliterate your bio-filter (the good bacteria Frank was talking about that process the waste, and the reason the LFS said to not change water etc) so you'll have to work with that in mind.

The tank is overstocked, so if you haven't added the Furan yet, do a water change before you start to help dilute the waste that has accumulated before you start, otherwise you'll be behind the ball the whole way through treating. The problem with the ammonia/nitrite thing is that it has some real physical effects on the fish, so even though you are treating the infection, their ability to cope with this is being reduced by having to deal with the infection, the medication, and the toxic water. Annoyingly, there is very little you can do to solve this right now. It is more likely a case of trying to minimise damage.

Without sounding dire, this is going to be a bit of a juggling act to keep the little ones going. The cycling tank would be enough to cause deaths and permanent physical damage, but adding the infection on top, and the need to treat with such strong drugs.... this is not a situation that I'd like to be in, and I've been doing this for a while. Still, goldfish and white clouds are known for being tough as old boots, so you might be OK

*if anything else dies, remove it as quickly as possible.
*consider feeding only 2 days out of the 4 days you are treating, or cutting the food right down to reduce stress on the biofilter.
*if you notice any gasping, do a partial water change. Try and time it so that it is just before you add a new dose of Furan, you don't want to underdose that by dilution. At the same time, there is no point treating disease if the water quality is going to take them out anyway. You are the one who can see the state of the fish, so if you think it needs to be done just do it.

See how you go with tracking down ammonia and nitrite kits, these are incredibly handy things to have on hand and are a good way to measure tank health. Since you don't have them now, though, use your nose Sniff the tank and see what sort of smell it has. Is it soft and earthy? sweet? strong? sharp? acidic? does it make your nose tickle? If you've added melafix, this won't work so well, but the ammonia smell is quite sharp and at the level I'd expect your tank to read at, your nose should tickle a little as it is an irritant. It is very crude, but it might be the best you can do for the moment.


Excluding the tail, how large are the goldfish? I'm trying to get a feel for how much strain they are putting on the tank and how much water you need to change to compensate in order to get some sort of cycle happening once treatment is over.

When you are at the LFS next, see if they stock Seachem products, and see if they can get a bottle of Stability for you. There are other brands, but some seem to make the problem worse, some do very little, and some are hit and miss. I've tried a few and this one seems to be the best of the bunch. It is bacteria-in-a-bottle and should help get the water issue solved quickly, in order to minimise damage to the fish Once that water issue clears up, you should have far less problem with disease


For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

I dont think there is much left for me to say after Frank and Callata detailed information. One thing I can back up is Seachem Stability it is a fantastic product I use it every week to keep the Bacteria in an excellent condition.
not all LFS have it I buy on line its a lot cheaper that way.
I will PM you I have a small booklet I can send to you.
Also contact Seachem where to get it in NZ
Seachem
To be honest I have payed to get a full water test done it works out a lot cheaper in the long term doing it that way. My LFS does not charge their customers for the basic tests. I always get them to write the results down too.
Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Hi Callatya,

Thanks for your post it helped quite a bit. Yes you can get Furan-2 from any petstore in New Zealand they even sell it straight off the shelf. I didnt realise it was a such a big gun medication as you said.

I did a 25% change before I dosed the tank with Furan-2 and I also gave the gravel a syphon. First dose yesterday went well and have just given them their second dose today. They are all really active which is a good sign, none of them are slimy or look odd, none have spots and all fins look good. Tomorrow before I treat it for the 3rd day with Furan-2 I have been told to take out 25% of the water on the 3rd day which I will do and then dose the tank again.

The goldfish are roughly 30mm and thats the biggest one. They are between 20mm and 30mm. I only have 3x goldfish in my main tank now with 8 mountain minnows which are between 15mm and 20mm in length. I have 1x goldfish in a seperate tank currently as he is nipping and I am not quite sure what I am going to do with him as I cant put him back in the other tank as he will start nipping the others again. Any ideas what I could do with him? He is perfectly fine no spots, rips or anything.

I might check it out about the seachem products and see if they do have them. I wont be able to put anything in as my tank has Furan-2 in it and melafix in the other tank so I dont want to start mixing too many chemicals.

I am only feeding every 2nd day since they have been sick.

Thanks sooo much for all your helpful advice.. I hate it when I know something is wrong but you cant figure out what to do. its also helpful knowing what everyone else on here suggests as everyone here is alot more helpful than the LFS. I will keep you posted with how they are doing each day

Tracie-Maree

Tracie
Furan-2 Antibacterial Fish Medication: Furan-2Effectively treats a wide variety of fungal and Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacterial diseases including: gill disease, mouth fungus, fin and tail rot, ...

Seachem Stability is a good bacteria for your filtertration system it is not a medication as such. What it does actually boosts your bacteria to a very healthy state.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

just on a side note,when you say you have had the tank setup for over a week,how long do you mean?

Its been set up for 2 weeks and a half i think (cant remember the exact date) the fish have been in there for 6-7 days.

Tracie-Maree

Update: Fish are doing well. Came home from work and they are swimming round the tank like crazy as per normal all of there fins are back to being perky and any rips in the tails seem to be clearing up nicely yay

I have 2 more doses of Furan-2 to do. One more tonight and one tomorrow then fingers crossed everything is back to normal.

You'll be happy to know next week on pay day I will be purchasing a water testing kit so I know that my little fellas are happy in their tank.

Still have to decide what to do with my fish who nips as I cant leave him all alone in the tank by himself forever. Might give him away to a friend who I know will only have one fish.

Will keep you posted once all the treatments are done and dusted Fingers crossed things are looking up

Thanks so much for everyones helpful advice and quick responses

Tracie-Maree

is it fully cycled?that mite be your problem..

It should be cycled it sat for long enough and had Cycle and Aqua Plus put into the tank to speed up the process. The air filter with bubbles and filter were going and tank had live plants in it the whole time so I presume it should have been ok.

Tracie-Maree