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Hello. I am aware that my question may seem sophomoric in the fact that the fish I am inquiring about is a mere common goldfish, but I thought I would give it a try. The goldfish in question is about ten years old and just today developed a spinal bend. He has had a protruding eye for sometime, as did my other goldfish. However, that goldfish never devolved the spinal bend. This goldfish, with the bend, floats on the bottom of the tank, slightly upside down. However, when nudged right-side-up, he can swim, until he reverts back to the upside down position. I don’t really know the water parameters because again, it is only recreational pet. I can try and supply more information, and all help is really appreciated. I’ve grown quite the attachment to the fish. Thank you.

What size of tank is he in? Many fish stores will do free water tests for you; check it out.

It sounds like he might have issues with his swimbladder or he is constipated. If it is the latter, feeding a shelled pea should help.

What are you feeding him? It is generally not a good idea to give goldfish pellet food because they eat it so fast. They eat it before it can absorb water, and so the pellets expand in their stomach and push against their internal organs, which can throw them off balance.

Welcome to FP.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

u might want to do somthing about theat popeye too

Diane (Cory Di) has a goldie that has this problem, and she found that it was constipation. She has gotten algae sheets from PetSmart, and feeds them some each day, I forget how much, I'm supposing the directions will tell you how much to feed. This again has helped her a lot, so try it, it can't hurt! Best of luck, Heidi

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Welcome to fishprofiles.com

If the spine is bending, I'm afraid the news is not good, especially being that a pop-eye is present as well. These are signs of Fish TB, which for the most part is incurable.

Just how bent is the spine and describe it as best you can so we know for sure. Can it be seen from the top view? From the side is it curved in one direction, or is it "s" shaped?

How big is the tank and what else is in it?

Knowing the parameters will help too, in particular nitrates. Being that he has survived 10 years in a closed system, is pretty darn good. Ammonia and nitrite are likley to be zero, but it is good to check. Depending on the size tank, and your water change schedule, the nitrates could be very high as they are huge waste producers. Nitrates should be kept below 40ppm and even better if they can be kept below 100ppm as it helps keep their immunity high. They can fight better. This means, lots of partial water changes with same temp water (+/- 1.5F). Doing a 25% change every other day, if you have a python makes it snap.

Kanacyn is the only potential treatment and it must be used for a long time. You may not cure him, but you may halt the disease or arrest it so things don't get worse. You can get it in a medicated food, the best way to deliver it aside from shots, online. It is called Medi-Koi. You can get it from places like PondRx.com, but I find them pricey. I believe if you do a search on Medikoi or Medi-Koi you will find it cheaper elsewhere.

Now, if there are other fish in the tank, they are vulnerable, but provided they don't have symptoms and water quality is high, they should be ok. But, I would feed them the MediKoi regardless of what happens to this fish since they may even have the disease at a low level.

You should know that Fish TB is zoonotic, meaning it is transmissible to humans. However, it is not the same as human TB. Rather, if you are immune suppressed in any way, or are taking steroids for a condition, which lowers resistance, you can get a sore on your hand or arm that may prove difficult to heal. There is one confirmed case of a throat infection that proved to be Mycobacterium Marinum because the guy was immune suppressed and didn't quite get his hose in the bucket when he sucked on it to start the siphon. He may have had a throat infection already when the water brushed it. In all cases they survive, but must be on specific antibiotics to arrest it. If any such sores develop and will not heal, have a doctor swab it and test for fish TB.

Here is more on MediKoi and I happened to have found one of the cheaper sources of it:

http://www.tsekoi.com/medications/medi.html

It has four antibiotics in it, one being Kanamycin.

And, here is more on Kanamycin and piscine TB.

http://groups.msn.com/FishHealth/fishtb.msnw - this site suggests a kanamycin bath, but it is not necessary with medicated food available and oral delivers the best therapeutic level. If the fish is not eating, then Kanamycin can be purchased (Aquatronics). You may need to find that online too.

Now, I will say that it sound like your fish is also suffering the effects of swim bladder disorder as well. This can be diet related and can also be infection based. Kanamycin will treat not only pop-eye, but can help with SBD if it is rooted in infection. It is debatable as to whether it works for TB. I like to go all out for my fish as they are pets. . Deshelled frozen peas that have been thawed (just squeeze the round shell off) are good. But the best is Seaweed Selects Algae Sheets http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=11462&Ntt=seaweed%20selects&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1. You may need to hold some down there for him to get. It quickly absorbs water and becomes gelatinous. With high fiber, packing alot of moisture, it helps unblock them.

Did the SBD occur with the bent spine? If so, something is likely compressing against the swim bladder.

If the fish is suffering, let us know if you feel the need to euthanize. There are several humane ways to do this. Freezing is no longer considered humane, especially for coldwater fish. Make a separate thread on the topic and you'll probably get 50 opinions. You can decide for yourself. Flushing, dropping into boiling water, freezing, alka-selter and drying out of water are all considered inhumane.



Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Feb-2005 10:27

Thank you all for your help Cori Addict, fishyhelper, heidi, and Cory_Di. The response has been unbelievable and I thank you for all your suggestions and help. To answer a few questions, the fish in question is in a 10 gallon tank all by himself and he has been for about three years since my last goldfish passed away. For all his life, he has been fed Tetra Fin Goldfish Flakes. I have posted some pictures the fish in question, Phinneus (or Fhin) here, to show the extent of his spinal bend. http://www.viggorous-tendencies.net/fish.php
Cori_Di, I really appreciate your elaborate answer and have printed it out to read it thoroughly and try some of your suggestions. It has been suggested over at Fish-Forum.com that I clean the gravel and do a %30 water change and treat the water with a tonic salt. So far however, I have been treating the water with a suggested antifungal remedy. My father is also heading over to get the water tested, so hopefully I will know more information about the water. Thank you all so much.


Last edited by tenlastnight at 09-Feb-2005 18:04

That doesn't appear to be a fish with piscine TB. I would expect emaciation.

Its a little better than I thought. I'll be honest, I've seen a fish that ended up stuck to the intake for several hours and that's how it looked. That particular fish was dying and didn't have the strength to get away from the intake. I powered off the filter and the poor thing swam away with a permanent bend. I'm thinking this fish was stuck to the intake do to his SBD, but managed to pull away, but not after being a little bent. Maybe with time he'll stretch out.

My guess is that SBD set in, maybe from the infection. I'm assuming he has an infection with only one eye popped. That infection could have traveled and infected the swim bladder. I highly recommend getting the MediKoi ASAP. It is expensive, but you can make it last a long time by keeping it sealed.

Since that could take up to a week to get, and, if you are in the US, you might want to try the new Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food. It is not as good as Medikoi and not as palatable to the fish, but it contains two powerful antibiotics that might help. Maybe the Jungle food will do the trick. Any antibiotic in bath will not work nearly as well as oral and any oral solution will not work as well as injection. The latter is not practical for many of us hobbyists. Hopefully, the antifungal remedy you are using has nitrofurazone, furazolidone or some other "fur". Those are absorbed best.

You'll have to soak the pellets because they float, but don't soak longer than needed. The antibiotic is milled in so that is best.

I can tell you with certainty that any goldfish in a 10 gallon is probably living in an environment with high nitrates. High nitrates are considered to be a contributor to SBD. I'm afraid that you will really need to do partial water changes daily for awhile. I would start with 2 gallons for 4 or 5 nights, then step it up to 3 gallons. The pH in that tank is likely much lower than your tap, just due to conditions. We don't want to shock the fish with a big change.

Very important is to make sure your water changes do not alter the temp more than 1-1.5F. It is the optimal amount of temp change. A sudden drop of just 3-4F can bring on ich. A sudden rise can make an infection worse.

Do what you must to keep him eating, but nothing but medicated food if he'll eat it. Hand feed him if necessary.

If he pulls through this, he really needs a bigger tank. Otherwise, you'll be stuck doing water changes as often as it takes to keep nitrates at an optimal level of < 20ppm.

Let's hope for the best and see if the fish is a fighter.

You can find the Jungle Anti-Bacterial Food at Petsmart for sure and Jungle was anticipating marketing it in several more by this time.

Here's what it looks like and the bottle might be in a flat plastic vacuum container:

http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806679&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1108002696123

Also, consider getting some of that seaweed select. YOu might find it at a local fish store and may need to order it online. It is the best thing in the world to keep them regular. I have a fancy goldfish that has chronic SBD (their scrunced skeletal form makes them e). He is a floater, but does not have problem as long as I feed him a 2 x 2 strip with each meal. Until then, try feeding him a pea or two before you start the medicated food.

On nutrtion, it is important to provide a varied diet. For example, you can feed the flakes as staple food. Several times weekly, provide some freeze dried blood worms, or freeze dried brine shrimp, or even some of the frozen products if a fish store near you has it. Food rapidly loses certain vitamins and minerals by 60 days and the longest it should be kept is 90. Therefore, buy smaller bottles rather than big economy ones. Goldfish also love Wardly Shrimp pellets. Some will even eat veggies from a clip, like spinach, romaine, zucchini, etc.

Keep us updated on his progress. He is just a middle aged comet . If he gets through this he can easily live a another 10 years or more, but he will need room to swim and enough water to allow you to only do water changes once weekly.

Hope this helps


Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Feb-2005 20:42

The little guy is quite the fighter. Your help has been most useful and I thank you again. The following is what has been done.
I’m hand feeding him the Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food; he didn’t take to the peas. I ordered the seaweed selects you recommended and they should be in soon. I'm also looking into the MediKoi. My dad is doing small water changes daily. I do have a question though, would it be better to treat the water with Melafix or Pimafix? We also took a sample of the water to the local Petsmart and had the water tested. All is fine, though the nitrate levels were a bit high so we fixed that. He is still slightly bent and lingering at the bottom of the tank, but isn’t as lethargic as before. Fingers crossed he continues improving.

Last edited by tenlastnight at 13-Feb-2005 00:07