FishProfiles.com Message Forums

I called home today and found out that our newly-converted from saltwater to fresh tank has an ich outbreak Worst of all, my favortie fish that finally got to move from a little 10 gallon tank to 6 times that much room have it all over That'd be my two Syno. eupterus. I hope they pull through. Some fish have already been lost. I don't know if any of the new ottos have been lost, my mom has a hard time finding them. One of the odessa barbs has it. A pearl danio is gone, one pearl gourami was sitting on the bottom of the tank under some driftwood this morning, the new bristlenose has it, plus it has something on its nose (I told my mom not to mix meds, wait for the ich to be gone then treat with Maracyn or something like that - it was hard because I wasn't at my comp)... one angelfish died a couple days ago before she noticed the ich, the other has it. Arrrrrrrgggghhhh! My poor fishies!!!! She shouldn't have added all the fish she added last week as soon as she did ] She treated with Ich Guard two days ago when she first saw it, but today she switched to Rid Ich. She hadn't raised the temp, but at least she took the carbon out of the filter. She has been doing partial water changes at least. She didn't know the synos were scaleless either. I don't think full strength meds will be too hard on them though - they stodd up to living in a 10 for a couple three years... *sigh* I hope my fishies live... She's going to turn the temperature up to 80 or 82 now so hopefully that'll help.

My poor fishieeees!

><>

If no new fish were introduced from an outside source, then the ich may have been sparked by chilling when transferred. Temperature shock is easy to bring on with only a 3-4F drop. Fish don't self regulate their body temps, it is goverened by the environment. It would be like our body temp going from 98.6F to 95.6 in minutes - shocking!

Also, if this bigger tank has new filters, new gravel and all the fish were put in there, it could be cycling. Can you get readings on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Also, aged tanks typically are lower in pH than newly filled tanks. Was a comparison done before the fish were transferred? Usually it can be brough closer in line with a series of daily water changes before the transfer.
[hr width='40%']
On to the condition.

Ick Guard would have to be used at half strength to not affect scaleless fish adversely. Jungle sells Ick Guard-2 for sensitive fish and that can be used at full strength or if in doubt, check how they do with less than full, then add a little more the next day and see how they cope.

Since you switched to Rid Ich (I'm assuming Rid Ich Plus), I believe that too advises half strength for sensitive fish. You can always try to add another quarter dose to see how the fish tolaterate it (and be prepared to do water changes if they go nuts).

Heavily infested fish may very well be lost so try to remove them as they die so they don't contribute to ammonia.

I am not a fan of turning up the heat when using products like Rid Ich Plus. It is not necessary and the only thing it does is speed up the life cycle. It does not cure anything. Kordon advises against turning up the heat with its product because of the formalin that is in it. Formaldehyde is a gas and it means there is less oxygen in the water when it is in the tank. Add to that the heat, and there is even less o2. One other drawback is that ich bites have a tendency to become infected, usually with a columnaris infection (body fungus). Columnaris is more virulent at 77F and higher so the heat fuels this. The ingredients in Rid Ich will partially counter the infection, but adding heat doesn't help. Some will disagree, but I've shared my reasoning so its up to you.

Here is some important info. Keep in mind that Ich meds do not cure the fish of the ich that is on it. Rather, those fall off to the bottom of the tank and eventually hatch out free swimmers in search of a new host days later. It is at this stage that the med kills them. This is why Ich keeps coming back on people. They mistakenly think it is done when the spots are gone, but it is gearing up for an even worst attack when hundreds or thousands of the buggers hatch in a matter of days.

Good luck and sorry for your experience. Monitor ammonia and nitrite daily during medication. Even low levels will just make it worse on them.

EDIT:

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/ich.html

http://www.novalek.com/kpd38.htm

I would not switch products around any further - stick with one. There are some very lethal combos out there and some must be removed with water changes, as opposed to activated carbon.

Diane

Last edited by Cory_Di at 25-Jan-2005 21:18

Last edited by Cory_Di at 25-Jan-2005 21:22

Ack. I posted this in the rec room (it got moved here) because I figured I knew enough about ich to be able to give my mom plenty of advice about it. I just needed a shoulder to cry on :\

There were new fish added recently, which is what probably brought it in.

I am not too concerned in this tank with oxygen levels because it's currently understocked. Most of the fish are small (like the angels, bristlenose, etc), plus it's not even fully stocked if they were full grown. It is almost new but we started off with a fishless cycle for a week until the bacteria were cleaning up ammonia... my mom says ammonia and nitrItes have been 0 for the past week.

It's just plain old stupid ich. I just really don't want it to kill my beautiful featherfin syno, especially not when I'm not there to help out with it.

Last edited by superlion at 25-Jan-2005 21:31

><>

Awwww - that's rough not being able to take care of it yourself and having to rely on someone. On the other hand, its grand that mom is such a good sport. Not all are that willing .

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

Diane

I think the most ironic thing is that I told her not to get angels... for one thing, I am not really crazy about them... plus they're not really the best community fish... but the main thing is they die! And sure enough, one angel dead already (only got it like 2.5 weeks ago) and the other has ich pretty bad. I know it is a bad situation anyway (threatening my beautiful synos that have previously had NO illnesses in the time I have kept them ), but I have to think "I told her so". The angels we had at the LCS I worked at always died. Fortunately, she hasn't gotten any guppies, which died even more than angels... she still thinks they are as tough a variety of fish as they were 30 years ago, but they (especially the pretty ones she is so inclined to get) have been so inbred nowadays that they catch everything and everything that goes around - at least she listened to me then. I had kept guppies a couple years ago and that's what happened. Might still try a smaller tank with them but I wouldn't want them in a big community like that with so many valuable fish they could give diseases to. *sigh* I guess it is one or more of the fish she got last week that brought it in. Pearl Gouramis, a BN, 6 ottos (one of which is gone already... I told her not to get ottos until the tank was growing algae well and I can't imagine that it was unless she put another light in the fixture, but nooooo) and one gold gourami. She doesn't even look that close at fish when she buys them either. She's like "oh that one looks ok" and I'm like "columnaris" or "ich" or "fin rot". Always. She'll notice if there is a dead fish in the tank but not if there is disease on any of the fish, unless they're floating or something. At least before we left I set an appropriate stock list...

><>

Maybe she needs some reading glasses - all kidding aside. I can't see details on my fish unless I have my nose against the glass with my near-sighted specs off. Then, I got combination reading/distance glasses and I can actually see the details with the reading portion

She's already got transition bifocals... and they are fairly up-to-date too (otherwise I wouldn't blame her for not looking carefully)

><>

Aaaaaaaaaaa!!! I got a letter from her today. This is what it says:


"Here are the water quality measurements and some questions:

1/12 Amm. 0.1; NO2 0.3; NO3 10

1/14 Amm 0; NO2 0.2; NO3 5

1/15 Amm 0; NO2 0.2; NO3 5

1/17 AMM 0; NO2 0.05; NO3 2.5

1/26 Amm 0; NO2 0.05; NO3 3.0



As you can see the water quality is still pretty good. As for the condition of the fish. The danio only has one small spot still on it, barely visible. The small catfish is looking pretty good. Hard for me to see any spots on it, but it still comes out of hiding more than it usually does. The big catfish still looks pretty bad. Not only does it still have numerous tiny white spots, it has several places where sq. cm of skin looks to be missing. It was out on the sand until the lights came on. Today is the first day that it went into hiding when the lights came on. The angelfish has several rather large white spots on its pectoral fins. Those spots don&#8217;t seem to be responding to the medicine, although they appeared for the first time Tuesday night. I&#8217;ve raised the temp to 82 degrees and have removed about 25% of the water before each daily treatment. I only have one more treatment of the Ridich, but I have about 2 more of the Ich Guard. Oh also fins on the big catfish, the angelfish, and smaller male Odessa barb are VERY frayed. I thought I would continue with one more treatment of the Ridich and then use the other ich medicine until it is gone. When the ich appears to be gone, hopefully by then. I think some thing to control and heal the skin of those fish would be good. What do you think?"


Ummmm where to start! Could this be a drug interation? She said that the BN she got had something fuzzy on the end of its nose on Tuesday. Possibly a secondary bacterial infection? I told her not to treat it until the ich meds were gone. As for the meds she is using now, I think she has just been using Rid Ich. I'm going to tell her to go down to the store and get more Rid Ich so she doesn't do the switch AGAIN, and to continue treating with that for another week (?).

And as a side note: square centimeters of skin missing!?!?! My poor fish!!!!


><>

Read what I said above about columnaris and ich. They often go hand in hand. The ich bites provide an entry for the bacteria and the next thin you know you have body fungus going around.

Is the tank being dosed with Melafix or Pimafix? If not, you can try that. Otherwise, I'd go with Maracyn and watch parameters closely. That biofilter is really being strained between ich med and any antibiotic.

Hmmm. I suppose we should lower the temperature and have my mom get *lots* more Rid Ich then. So that she can treat with that and possibly some MelaFix until my fish are *knock on wood* back to normal, and the ich cysts are gone.

><>

It's critical that that temp not drop more than 1-1.5F daily. Otherwise, the ich will get worse. All things must be gradual - like in terms of daily.

Shouldn't be a problem. 60 gallons of water doesn't cool down that fast in an acrylic tank with tight lid when the heater is just turned down a couple notches.

><>

Here's the latest message from my mom (by the way, Walter is our dog, who looooooves watching the fish, especially catfish):

The ich is no longer on any fish. Yes, I am continuing to treat the tank.I did not change the medication. The catfish seem to be doing okay. The big one is healing up well and acting normal. The small one looked terrible on Saturday. I was really afraid it was going to die. It had large patches of dark fungus and other patches where the fungus was gone, but there were large patches of raw skin. He also just sat in one spot, not moving.(Driving Walter absolutely crazy!) However, yesterday the last large patches of fungus were gone. It still had the raw skin, but it was acting more normally and was "friskier". Yesterday, only the Oto had some fungus on it. I haven't seen it today, but it does hide well. I put some of the MelaFix into the tank on Saturday. All the fins seems to be healing and all the fish are acting normally again. I'll use the Rid Ich for two more days and decide then if I need to use the MelaFix. Oh I forgot to mention that I lowered the temperature in the tank to 78 degrees, just as you suggested.

Thanks for your advice. It seems we saved the fish!

Last edited by superlion at 31-Jan-2005 16:11

><>