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Rid Ich Plus easily available @chain petstores like petsmart and petco as well as most LFS's is specially formulated for scaleless fish like clowns.

After adding the meds you can slowly increase the temperature to as high as possible for all your fish to be comfortable. Be sure to dose according to the directions and not just because you've seen the spots fall off. It's only after the cycsts have fallen off the fish that they're suceptable to meds.
[link=Here is some background reading]http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/ich.html" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link].

^_^[hr width='40%']"Somewhere beyond happiness and sadness
I need to calculate,what creates my own madness...
and I am waiting for disaster"

I dosed half strength CopperSafe, noticed the fish seemed okay (save for the Ich of course), then added to about 3/4 dose. Spots are still there. Flashing like crazy. No deaths. I thought the spots would fall off by now. It's been about five days. I thought I had Ich a few weeks ago (saw one suspicious speck on Clown Loach) when I started this thread, but it was on a fish who hides all the time anyway. The next I saw her, there were no spots so I thought false alarm. Now I know better and am kicking myself and feel like a terrible fish mom.

How much Coppersafe did you add and to what size of a tank?

If you are still seeing flashing and you don't see any spots on the fish, how do their gills look? Puffy and red at all?

Thanks for that advice. I just wish they'd quit flashing. I purchased some RidIch Plus but at the last minute found a bottle of CopperSafe in my aquarium supplies. So I am using the COpperSafe. I just feel so sorry for my fish.

I have successfully treated my Clown Loaches with CopperSafe.

Coppersafe is very stable in water and wont leach out. In other word, you don't have to redose it unless you change water. Then you only redose the amount you changed the water for.

HTH

Regards,
FMZ

When treating with Coppersafe, do you do one dose then after a few days do a water change/gravel vac and then add more? Or do you dose every day? I am confused on that.

Start with half dose and monitor the fish closely.

Wow! What a wealth of information. Thank you all so much. I am reluctant with heat method, as I have many Panda Corys and they prefer cooler water. I have found some Rid Ich Plus and hopefully that will do the trick. Thanks again, I have learned so much. Wish me luck!

Yes, heavy snail deaths can = ammonia so vac' em out or put some lettuce in there to draw them to the leaf before they can croak in the tank.

Pet snails can be moved to a bowl with tank water and just fed lettuce or other veggies until all copper is gone.

Copper testers are hard to come by, but you can get them at http://www.drsfostersmith.com, if interested.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Feb-2005 10:29

Oh, I completely agree Diane. You don't want to mix anything with Coppersafe other than what the manufacturer tells you to. I've been blessed that I don't have problems in the tanks.

Snails... Babel.. you are right. It is snails that can not tolerate Coppersafe.

Hey Tammy, please come into the hospital more than 2x a year . I think there's plenty of room for help and for a variety of perspectives. Yours comes with actual experience with clowns, which is great.

I'm glad you relayed your success story with coppersafe and ich. I knew it was effective for velvet and my sister has had good luck with it that way. So much has been written lately that suggests copper is not as effective as once thought for ich, but after hearing your success with it, it would be better than some of the other noxious stuff out there. Malachite Green is a poison I wouldn't be surprised to see fall away with all the hazards. It isn't even safe for pregnant women to handle it or put their hands in the tank, and is a known carcinogen. Formalin, being a gas, I feel is just plain hard.

I would agree tho, if other treatment has been started, you don't want to mix coppersafe or other copper meds with malachite and formalin. If there is a desire to switch, then a 25-30% water change should be done and activated carbon run overnight, if not a full day.

Also, many don't realize that copper is so stable that activated carbon does not eliminate it from the water. I've not only read this, but experienced it when I used some at half strength one time for my cories who had been flashing at the gill area. Praziquantel did not stop it so it could not have been gill flukes. The pH was stable and ammonia and nitrite were zero. I decided to try a low dose of coppersafe and did so at less than half strength because of the tiny habrosus cories also in the tank. They tolerated that well, and I added a dab more to make almost half strength and that was ok. The flashing lessened.

I happened to have a copper test kit for FW/SW by Red Sea. I tested my copper levels and it was 0.3 mg/L, which is the suggested rate for therapy. 0.4 mg/L is considered the most a fish should be exposed to. (Levels were zero before I started). Therefore, the half dose, in my tank, was already sufficient, but all tanks are different. Things in the tank can soak it up and activated carbon will pull some out, but not all. My levels did not go down with activated carbon running and after 4 weeks, I still have a low level left. It took water changes.

I only mention this because if one switches back to a product like Rid Ich Plus, it really takes a series of several water changes to eliminate the copper, or reduce it to a mitigating level.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Feb-2005 10:00

Babel....

Those fish were very lucky. Wasn't it one of your friends fish that didn't fair so well with the high heat method? I mean, the fish she was trying to cure of Ich survived but how many others did she lose? I remember watching that whole scenario unfold and it just broke my heart. That whole situation was out of control. I felt so bad for your friend and her fish.

Tammy,
Thanks for the clarification ...I really got that one mixed up :%)...wonder why I thought that it was really bad for them maybe I mixed up snails with loaches ...*tries to remember for next time*

In anycase, I suppose I should pass along my heat treatment story...I'll keep it shortP. Needed the heater for the new office tank (air conditioner was set to 65 and that tank got ich ) so I figured that the home tank would retain enough heat to keep it consistant till I could get an extra heater. Ended up having a sudden drop in temp (it was late spring) and the home tank got ich (>.&lt so I decided to use an old heater that someone had found that was rather old. Plugged it in, left for work, came back from work had the tank temp showing @ 98F . So a temp swing from 60's to 90's in 12 hours. Ich wasnt too happy about 98F, the fish did okay (danios and goldfish in transition) but it's not really something I reccomend for treatments other than where clown loaches and lack of clown loach meds are to be found.
Arent we all glad we know my story now .

^_^ [hr width='40%']"Somewhere beyond happiness and sadness
I need to calculate,what creates my own madness...
and I am waiting for disaster"

I allow myself to venture into the hospital forum two times a year to address this topic. I hope I don't step on any toes....

Coppersafe is safe to us with Clown Loaches. For combatting external parasites it is my med of choice across the board. If the Clowns are in overall good health it shouldn't be a problem whatsoever. But that should hold true for any fish.

I have used Coppersafe in the tank where I have my Clowns as a preventative multiple times over the years and I have never had a fish have an adverse reaction to using the stuff.

Normally I use 1/2 to 3/4's the regular dose when using the Coppersafe as a preventative. *Maybe* three times a year.

Once a long time ago I had a Rainbow come down with Velvet in the same tank as the Clowns. I ended up using a full dose of Coppersafe in the tank and the Loaches came through just fine. I monitored them very closely and not even an inkling that there was anything in the water bothering them. Full doses I wouldn't suggest to people though unless you thoroughly know your fish and what to watch for if they appear to becoming stressed in the least. It was after the episode with the Velvet that I started using Coppersafe as a preventative in all my tanks. No problems anywhere, Cories, Pleco's, Tetra's, nobody.

The biggest issue with using Coppersafe in my opinion is knowing when to stop. You definitely do not want to overdose the poor fishies and you don't want to use Coppersafe if you have already used something else. It is potent.

Everyone has varying opinions on what not to use. I myself don't like to use products that are going to stain the silicone in the tanks such as Maracide and the other meds containing Malachite Green. I'm not saying they wouldn't work, I just want to preserve the look of the silicone in the tanks. People really do give Coppersafe a bum wrap. Either they have never used it and heard that it is nasty or they have used it but not used it correctly. I just find it hard to believe that I have used it as many times as I have and I have beat the odds everytime with the fish coming through the ordeal as good or better than they were going in. Actually, since using the Coppersafe in the tanks as a preventative I have *never* had any type of external parasite outbreak.

So.. it's up to you... I hope you find what it takes to treat your fish though. I also am not a fan of the increased temp. That procedure isn't bulletproof and can bring more harm than good.

Last edited by Tammy at 09-Feb-2005 04:57

Hey Mary, I'm not a big fan of heat treatment for ich, but depending on your other stock, I'd consider the heat treatment for the loaches. According to Dr. Edward J. Noga, in his book, Fish Disease-Diagnosis and Treatment, the ich parasite cannot complete its lifecycle above 86F and is killed at 90F at the freeswimming stage. I was never in agreement with Gary on 95F because this fact is repeated in other fish disease books as well. There are fish that cannot survive this and that's why I ask what other fish are in the tank.

Loaches like high temps and the parasite cannot survive 90F, but there is a process - see link at bottom. However, to not induce temp shock, it is best to keep it at about 1F every 12 hours - a slow increase. Dose the tank with Pimafix to prevent columnaris infection. Whenever using heat always increase o2. Drop extra airstones in or a spare filter to get more water exposed to the atmosphere. Remove carbon.

If you have already dosed Rid Ich Plus, hopefully, you have done so at half strength. With scaleless fish or tetras, it is best to see how they react to a smaller dose. When using any product with formalin, do not use heat treatment. In fact, it is wise to use extra air as above because formalin is a gas and depletes o2. If your fish are piping for air, you need more surface movment. If it is bad, do a partial water change.

Read what Babel suggested on the Ich Lifecycle. Ich is the gift that keeps on giving because people don't understand when the ich meds are effective and when they are not. There is a false impression that ich meds will cause the spots to go away. It does not do that. It only treats freeswimmers looking for a host. Ich spots fall off naturally with time and they drop down onto whatever, developing into many more like themselves. Once they hatch, that's when it is critical to have the right temp or the right med. Heat also speeds up the life cycle too.

Ich meds and antibiotics can affect your biofilter so check ammonia and nitrite within a day or two after starting and several days after.

Copper can work, but is least effective, imho. There is not much to support its use in the most recent fish disease books I have. A combination of Formalin and Malachite Green is considered the best, but Rid Ich Plus uses a safer formulation of Malachite.

Here is something worth reading, supporting the use of Rid Ich Plus versus Maracide - a mardel product.

http://www.loaches.com/maracide.html

If you absolutely cannot find Rid Ich Plus, then look for something with Malachite & Formalin and use it at half strength. In fact, try it at just under half strength, then add more an hour or two later after you've had a chance to see how they react.

Here is more. Note that malachite should not be handled in any form by women who are or may be pregnant.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA006

http://www.aquamaniacs.net/ich.html



Last edited by Cory_Di at 08-Feb-2005 23:42

Last edited by Cory_Di at 08-Feb-2005 23:43

Out of it !
Well...Call around and find a shop that does have it in stock? I know there are a few others that are clown loach approved, but of course I cant remember the names >.<
Heat is a cure when it comes to ich, however most fish cannot handle temps above 95F that's needed to kill the ich. If you've just noticed the spots then you still have a day or two to get meds. Call around and see who has it, someone else might know something that's absolutly safe to use with clown loaches.

^_^ [hr width='40%']"Somewhere beyond happiness and sadness
I need to calculate,what creates my own madness...
and I am waiting for disaster"

Well, LFS does not carry or was all out of Rid Ich Plus. Great. Any alternatives?

I'm pretty sure that coppersafe is a Big no way when it comes to loaches! I've never had them, just know that of all the ich meds out there I see time and again rid ich plus metioned for treatment with clowns.

Good luck .

^_^

[hr width='40%']"Somewhere beyond happiness and sadness
I need to calculate,what creates my own madness...
and I am waiting for disaster"

Thank you sooooo much. I appreciate that info. Seems I used Maracyn2 before and it was okay. I was also told that Coppersafe okay for loaches, but then someone else said "No way." Thanks again

I am not sure yet, but one of my three clown loaches MAY have ich. I went through this about a year ago and two clowns survived but I lost one and some rubber plecos. I cannot remember what I used to treat them. I also received conflicting information about which treatment is best for loaches and plecos. The majority of my fish are bottom feeders (loaches, plecos, corys) and I also have two angelfish. Help! I have Maracyn2 and Pima Fix (something like that??). What can I use that won't kill my fish? Thanks