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Mary - please let us know which kit you have. I have the one by Red Sea, and it discusses chelated copper, but doesn't mention if it tests for it.

I believe polyfilters are just square pads you can cut down to size to put into any filter situation. I used a similar one for phosphate removal.

I wonder how I would use the Poly Filter? I have a Fluval 404 cannister filter. Would I just use it for a day to get the existing meds out? Put it in in place of the arbon? Then remove, then add the new medicine, then put back in again once fish are cured?? My copper kit, by the way, does say "chelated." I remember seeing that when I read it the other night. I am at work right now and have not tested water yet today. WIll do so tonight.

On an advertisement for Stress Coat..

Instantly removes chlorine and chloramines, making tap water safe for fish. Neutralizes heavy metals. Also, replaces the natural slime coating fish need in times of stress, such as handling, shipping or fighting. Contains Aloe Vera, nature's liquid bandage, to prevent the loss of essential electrolytes and protect damaged tissue against disease-causing organisms. Helps heal torn fins and skin wounds. Use when setting up aquarium, changing water, or adding fish.



Last edited by Tammy at 03-Mar-2005 14:37

Actually, this just dawned on me. I had been using STress COat the last couple of water changes, not Aqua Plus. I am sooooo sorry I spaced out on this one. That is probably why there is still copper in the tank. With everything going on, it slipped my mind that when I went to LFS they sold Stress Coat to me because it was on sale and "the same thing" as AquaPlus. Obviously it is NOT. I am sorry everybody. I have way too much on my plate lately

Good work, Tammy.

I've always wondered how to contact Mardel. They are Virbac? Can you give me contact info?

Insto Chlor removes chlorine/chloramine nothing more.

Mary is getting positive readings on copper. But, I'm wondering if it doesn't neutralize it in a way that readers still see it, but it is ineffective for parasites.

Exactly Diane.

Mary I am so sorry that we did not know this for certain earlier.

I spoke with Virbac the makers of Coppersafe alittle while ago. They said that it still would not be safe to use any other external parasite remedy while you still are getting readings for Copper. They said to make sure that the test kit you are using to check your copper levels needs to be one specifically for testing Chelated Copper. Any other type and you will not get an accurate reading for what you have in the water. It should say "Chelated" right on the package.

Now... the lady did tell me that using a Poly Filter will remove any copper from the tank. I found it at the MarineDepot.com website listed under Filter Media. Item Number PB1111.

Here is a description of the product..

Poly Filter
Poly Filter is a highly absorbent pad that will quickly and efficiently remove impurities and medications from aquarium water. It also removes phosphates which contribute to unwanted microalgae. It changes color when exhausted. Size: 4" x 8".

I think I am going to get a few of these for myself. Sounds like a good item to have.

How do we know that Insta-Chlor won't do the same thing? If it doesn't, that's great. I want to buy some on my home tonight. Thanks.

This is going to be quick, more later.

That REALLY ticks me off about the AquaPlus and CopperSafe. I asked LFS about it and they confidently answered "no, Aqua Plus will not neutralize copper." GRRR!!! Thank you sooooo much for finding that out for me. I did a water change last week with no AquaPlus and added some CopperSafe. That may be why I am getting a small copper reading. I am so livid!!!

YOU are a genious, by the way, for figuring that one out. Thanks so much for your investigative work. Kudos to you and a A + .

I will get back with the numbers tonight.

Mary

How do we explain the copper levels?

I ran into this with Prime, after using Coppersafe. It occurred to me that maybe I was removing the copper with Prime since it treats heavy metals. That's when I wondered if Copper was a heavy metal or not.

It's at that point that I decided to get a tester and found my copper levels elevated, in comparison to tap water, which was zero. Water changes brought it down.

Mary is getting positive readings on copper. But, I'm wondering if it doesn't neutralize it in a way that readers still see it, but it is ineffective for parasites.

FINALLY!!

From:
Customer Service-USA <customer.service-usa@rchagen.com>
Subject: Re: AquaPlus neutralizing Copper, ID No. 85357

Dear Tammy,

Yes Aqua Plus will neutralize Copper. Please reply if you have any
further questions.

Thank you,
Sharon Emond, Customer Service Dept.
Rolf C. Hagen (USA) Corp.

CONTACT FORM AQUATIC

Name : * Tammy
Email : **************
City :
Province : Ohio
Zip/Postal code :
Country : * U.S.A.
Other :
Telephone :
Subject : * AquaPlus neutralizing Copper

Request :

Dear Sirs.. I am wondering if the use of Aqua Plus would neutralize Copper in an aquarium. I read where it neutralizes "heavy metals". Could someone please advise me on this? Thank you so much for your time.

*************

I guess now we know why the Coppersafe wasn't effective. Really is a shame. Good to know for the future though. I suspected the "neutralizes heavy metals" to be the case but I didn't want to debate that removing copper was only possible through water changes. Now I have to wonder what else the Aqua Plus will neutralize and just how long does the conditioner remain effective in your tank water. I am going to follow-up that email with more questions to Hagen.

If you are wondering what you could use to prepare your water for use to remove chlorine/chloramine so this doesn't happen again, we use a product called Insto Chlor made by Jungle.

Last edited by Tammy at 03-Mar-2005 07:18

That kH number is what we need to know. We need a kH reading out of the tank in question, and a kH reading out of your cold tap. For kH, it does not need to sit.

It is doubtful that you have soft water with pH that high. Do you have well water or city water? There are many ways to soften your water. One way people do it is with reverse osmosis water, but that is a pricey venture if you don't already have one. If you use 100% RO, then there are minerals you add back to get the appropriate hardness and other things needed. But, you can also mix the RO - like 20% RO and 80% regular tap to keep your tank at a certain level, as an example. If that is troublesome, you can buy something like a peat pack to put in your filter. It softens the water. But, DO have your lfs check your pH independently, with a high range test kit. Let's be absolutely certain your kit isn't "off". Also, when you go back, ask him if his tanks are running that high. If he uses the same water and his pH is lower, ask if he does anything to lower it. Just don't let him sell you anything just yet - especially products like pH down. They will make the pH yoyo all over the place and bounce right back up the next day.

0.5 copper is getting there. If you want to speed things up, you can do two water changes several hours apart. Instead of a 30% change, do two 20% changes and see what your copper reads the next morning.

Keep tabs on that ammonia and nitrite before you do water changes. I would hate to see that creep up on you. Everything may be fine in that regard and I hope Tammy is right about the substrate holding a good amount of bacteria. Just try not to disturb it during gravel vacs. If you find even a small amount, make sure you hit the tank with more of your bacterial starter, be it BioSpira, Cycle, Stress Zyme, Fritz Zyme.

The Melafix or Pimafix you add should help with those "sores" or rough spots left from the ich.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 21:21

BTW, my LFS handles that test kit, but was out of it. They will have more on Tuesday.

Hi! GOSH you are so helpful. I cannot thank you enough.

My numbers are the same tonight (after water change) except for copper. It is now 0.50. I am not yet comfy adding formalin after everything i have heard about mixing copper and formalin.

That PH has always been high. After I answered all your questions, I thought, "Heck"!!! (sic) I have a 65 gallon hex with totally different substrate and driftwood and the PH is STILL high.

Now, I am not sure what drives PH readings. Never have been. Does soft water make a difference??

My pleco looks somewhat better this evening (spots SEEM to be disappearing) and clowns were out swimming again after water change. They still have spots on their tails and I want to add that Ick Guard II in the worst way. But I refuse to do so until copper all gone. Their tails look corroded and have spots. BUt other than their bodies looking somewhat "worn", they seem otherwise happy. Is this just the weirdest thing or what???? And it's going on three weeks since first spot noticed.

A note to the poster who said to raise temps to 90. I cannot do so. I have Panda Corys. I don't think they could handle it.

Thanks again for your help. I am testing a tube out of the tap for PH. Will report back tomorrow.

Everyone on this forum is a GEM
/:'

Well, Mary - it does not sound like you have anything in the tank driving up pH. But, when you get a chance, take several pieces of your gravel, rub them free of grime and slime and let them dry. Then use ordinary white vinegar and put a drop on each piece and see if any of them fizz.

I'm also wondering if your tester is good. When you take water to the lfs to check your kH, have them check the pH with a high range tester. And, ask them what pH they get on their tanks and whether they adjust it at all. If it is a close store, find out if they use the same water source. That really tells you something. My water is the same as all of my lfs, in terms of pH. No one adjusts and so we all stand between 7.7 and 8.0 on any tank, depending on age.

8.4+ - that's something. But don't play with the pH using any products. some will really make it yoyo. WE just need to verify that it is really that high and not something wrong with your test kit.

1)What kind of substrate is it - almost white, natural tans/brown, black, colored (cyan, blue, pink, etc.)?

It is mainly small but some vary (1/2 inch to 1 inch diam) stones, pearlescent, mainly natural looking with some very very faint light blue and pink stones.

2)What is the texture of your substrate? Round, sharp, bits of broken down shell?

Roundish (some oblong), smooth.

3)Do you have any shells in your tank (clam, sea, snail, etc.) If so, describe it.

Nothing artificial (as far as shells etc.) has been added to tank except some artificial plants. Oh, and I do have a log thing in the tank that is supposedly safe for both reptiles and fish. It said so anyway on the tag, I was careful to check. I think it is heavy plastic or ceramic. It looks like a real tree log.

4)Do you have rocks in your tank? Describe the color and color pattern. I have petrified wood in the tank. Also, I have two pieces of driftwood in the tank. The one is very different, although I see a lot of it at the LFS. It is called Bayou Driftwood. It does seem to collect a bit of algae at times, but nothing devasting. Interestingly, the other piece of driftwood never has algae or anything on it. I am somewhat suspect that this Bayou Driftwood may be causing the "stink" in the water. Have had that "stink" even with good test numbers, for almost a year now.

I think I answered all of your questions ? I hope so. I will try to find that test on my way home from work.

Thanks for your help. What I cannot believe is that these fish are still hangin' on.

kH is for Carbonate Hardness. It has a bearing on pH in the tank. The higher the kH, the higher the pH, unless you are adding supplemental co2. I suspect you have very high kH. Getting your pH down, is a matter of getting the kH down. I suspect the 8.4+ is stressful to the fish, if it is a true reading. 8.0 is pushing it, but many do fine at that level. But you're up into rift lake cichlid territory or even close to marine. Here is what the AP kit looks like if you can spot one in your fish store. It is good to have on hand, otherwise, you may need to purchase eventually online.

[link=http://champkoi.com/test_kits/]http://champkoi.com/test_kits/" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Here is the Hagen version, which is also good, but more pricey.

[link=http://www. /prod146.htm]http://www. /prod146.htm" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Paper test strips are ok, but generally cost more per test and don't last as long, and are harder to read. Liquid is better all the way around and I like AP, in particular.

While we wait for the results of that can you please break explain the following (copy and paste to answer all):

1)What kind of substrate is it - almost white, natural tans/brown, black, colored (cyan, blue, pink, etc.)?

2)What is the texture of your substrate? Round, sharp, bits of broken down shell?

3)Do you have any shells in your tank (clam, sea, snail, etc.) If so, describe it.

4)Do you have rocks in your tank? Describe the color and color pattern.

Let's start with that Mary, because I truly believe your pH out of the tap after 24 hours, will not read 8.4. If so, then you will need to soften that up a bit and there are ways to do that.

There are ways we can test your substrate and rocks by placing a drop of vinegar on them after drying and looking for fizz. If it fizzes, you don't want it in your tank.

RasboraMary,

I treated my Clowns with CopperSafe with increased overall temperature

It seems CopperSafe is not working for you.
I would do couple of small water changes (10-20%) over the next few days, get the Copper level down to 0


Also bump the temperature to 90F. ICK can't live over 89F
Once you don't see any ick on any fish, then I would do a good gravel vac.

After that, I would slowly decrease the temperature down to 75F +

HTH,
FMZ

First of all to Chris: I am so sorry you are going through this as well. Maybe we will both get back on our feet soon. I sure hope so. In the meantime, please know I am sympathizing with you.

Okay, about the Aqua Plus. It is supposed to be like the product "Stress Coat." It says it relieves stress in fish. Don't know if I believe that or not, but I figured it's worth a try.

So you think it's safe for me (after the copper is removed) to start with Formalin? I realize I will have to lower the water temp. Formalin and Copper are a big "no no" from what I have researched (and I have researched PLENTY).

I will test the water again tonight and let you know the new parameters.

What is the test that you mentioned I should buy? I have not heard of that.

Thanks again for your support. You have really been helping me cope with a tough time

Mary...

I'm sorry to throw something else at you... I see you mentioned treating the tank the other night with both Cycle and Aqua Plus. Is there a reason you treated with the Aqua Plus while not performing a water change? Do the instructions on the bottle advise doing this?

Hey folks. I'm new to this site but I'm in the middle of a similar crisis:
I've had my 19 gallon (US) tank for more than a year. The contents until 2 weeks ago was 2 clown loaches, a plec, 6 neon tetras, a pearl gourami and a silver hatchetfish. I've previously lost a couple of fish over the course of the year, mostly to explainable causes. I had Ich early on and after treating with a prodcut by Waterlife called Protizin, it was cured quickly and without incident. I had to treat again as a precaution when I bought the clown loaches. I've bought all my fish until now from Maidenhead Aquatics here in the UK, and as a large chain with experienced staff I've always found them pretty top-notch retailers.
Then, 2 weeks ago I was out of town and came across a small shop which had some Marbled Hatchetfish. I'd never heard of them, the tank looked in good condition so I bought two. BIG MISTAKE. After following the usual introductory procedure I noticed they had Ich the following day a day. Within 3 days most of my fish had some whitespot, and the loaches had begun flashing crazily around. On the 3rd day I began a treatment of protizin. By day 4, the one Marbled Hatchetfish had died, most fish had damaged fins and the clownloaches were covered in spots.
I stopped the Protizin course after 3 days at full dose, did a water change of 25% then did one day's treatment of Melafix in my frustration. That's when the other Marbled Hatchetfish died on me. I then realised the best chance of saving the others was a new course of Protizin at half dose and not Melafix. The last dose of that course was yesterday.

Today I woke to find the larger clownloach (my strongest fish) dead and covered with thick white slime. The other clownloach has very badly damaged fins and although it is still breathing (very quickly) I will have to destroy it.

This has been a total disaster. After investing time, money and emotion in my aquarium, some jerk who doesn't look after his stock properly has screwed the whole thing up. I have 3 fish dead, one at the threshold and others with fin damage because of the treatments.

I urge you all: only buy from reputable retailers (unless you can afford a quarantine tank - not me, a lowly student), and treat regularly for maladies, just in case.

Try to get the copper to zero, or as close to zero as you can before dosing anything else. Only water changes will do it.

Now, I just looked up Ick Guard 2 and the active ingredient is Formalin. That is why it is deemed safe for scaleless fish and aquatic plants, unlike Malachite Green. But I can't be sure it is safe to dose with copper or not. You typically don't see copper with formalin.

Important note about formalin - it is a gas and you should NOT increase temp with it in the water as higher temps also mean less oxygen. Add the gas and fish have difficulty breathing.. I hope I have your attention with this as it is critical. I strongly recommend allowing the temp to drop 1F daily until you get down to 77F. No abrupt changes. In a tank that size, it will take time for the temp to drop anyway - like days. But I would only notch it down no more than 2F on your heater setting. A sudden drop will make matters worse.

With any product containing formalin, it would be good to drop in an extra airstone to push water up towards the surface where it can pick up extra o2. I would also start with just a half dose, when you have most of the copper out. See how the fish respond. You can always add a little more 2 hours later, if all are well.

Your cories are likely to be seen going up more frequently for air. As long as it is not every few seconds you should be ok, otherwise a water change to dilute would be helpful.

Now, you don't want to disturb your gravel right now as the gravel needs to hold the bioload while the new filter seeds.

I've used Pimafix and Melafix with Coppersafe, but I have not tried it with Formalin (Ick Guard-2). If you are unsure, just discontinue the day you put the Ick Guard in the tank. You should be able to start back up the next day. Since formalin is a gas, it won't be in the water that long. Follow directions as to what days you need to dose.

Mary, I'm wondering if the super high pH is not stressing the fish and prolonging this. You really need to do that pH test I suggested in another thread - checking it straight out of the tap, followed by a check at least 24 hours later after it sits out. Just put some in a small rubbermaid container or disposable container so that there is at least a half cup. Keep shaking it whenever you walk by, but take the lid off so gases can escape. I have a feeling there is something in your tank driving up the pH.

As an example, mine is 7.0 straight out of the ice cold tap, and it rises after 24 hours of bubbling to 8.0. Compressed gases come out.

We need to get a kH reading when you go back to the fish store, if you don't have kH tester. It is probably quite high.

Hang in there girl! This too shall pass.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Mar-2005 22:01

I purchased a copper test kit. Here are my parameters:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0
PH 8.4 or 8.8 (I have trouble distinguishing that test)
Copper 1.0

I have done nothing with the tank tonight save for adding N.I. Cycle and AquaPlus (AFTER I tested the water). No water changes.

Any suggestions? If I get that copper out of there would you suggest Ick Guard II for scaleless fish?? Or do you think I am barking up the wrong tree??

Thanks so much for your advises.

I might add, I am afraid to go much higher with the water temp, as I have Panda Corys. Perhaps they can endure a bit more heat, I am not sure.

Also, the fish I mentioned are the only ones who have the disease. There is a another pleco in there who is perfectly fine, as are my Angelfish (now, but one had something on it's fin a week ago) and my harlequin rasboras.

Okay. This isn't quite "Part II" yet, as I am still at work.

The fish are definitely flashing. The white on their bodies is in the form of spots, and I looked at some pictures of fungus and it does not resemble that. Definitely looks like ICH. There are spots all over that poor pleco, and the clowns have them mainly on their tails, some on their heads. Also, the clowns tails are "eroding" on the edges. The fish appear to be eating, and they are quite active since I changed the filter and added additional movement in the water with the new filter.

I have a test kit. Last test was shortly before meds. I had the incorrect (??) assumption that meds messed with test results and I have not bothered.

Last reading: 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 20 Nitrate, and 8.5 (i think) PH. That is a normal PH reading for me. At least that is what it has always been.

I have been dosing with Cycle and Aqua Plus since I changed the filter, using the recommended amounts for a "new tank set-up."

I will pass along the test results this evening. I am almost afraid of what they will be. I have screwed up, I am afraid, and last night I just broke down and started crying. I wrecked a good thing.

Will check back later. Thanks again.

Cory, I am not so sure I would advise her to try and save the old media if it is still wet. You are risking a whole world of nasty bacteria growth that you don't want anywhere near the water. Besides, there should be enough buildup of nitrifying bacteria in the substrate to keep the cycle moving along relatively well.

I should have mentioned that "IF" it had only been an hour or two, and I already specified that the media could only be brought back if not contaminated. If it was put into plastic an hour prior, there was air in the bag. A quick rinse and it would be good to go.

Mary, have you added BioSpira or NIC?

I do hope you have intentions of monitoring ammonia and nitrite daily for the next two weeks to be certain. Any tank with copper and salt has a slightly compromised bacterial colony as both hinder it, not to mention abrupt loss of an established filter. I'm not as confident as Tammy that the gravel alone can handle the load right now, but time will tell. All you need is a 0.5 ammonia or nitrite, or higher, going on daily for a while for some sensitive fish to start dropping.

Whenever changing filters, try to find a way to run them simultaneously for a time. This gives the second filter a chance to get seeded.

If you don't have them, I would strongly suggest Ammonia and Nitrite kits for now. If either is up due to the new filter, you will need to know so you can take corrective action to help the fish. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals provides the cheapest and easiest to read, and they last a good year or more. I replace them yearly.

When you get to Part 2, please address my question above on flashing/scratching.

Here's what the master kit looks like. The ammonia is in a golden yellow box, and the nitrite is in a dark pink box, if you buy them separately. Note that this test kit is only 12.99 at Big Al's and I've seen it as high as 27.99 locally.

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19383;category_id=3233;pcid1=;pcid2=


Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Mar-2005 10:17

I keep clowns and they are kinda small, and I face an ICH problem every 3 months, for God alone knows what reason. But this is what worked for me all this while. A handfull of salt and 89 degrees F temperature (31 C). If the ICH survives this, which is rarely the case, or if one of my clowns is so badly hit and I feel paranoid, I use Rid All Plus at half dosage (that's recommended for loaches) for 3 days and do regular PWCs.

High temp, salt and sometimes Rid All do the trick for me.

I have never lost a clown to ICH. All my 15 clowns are hale and hearty.

Touch Wood!

Thanks for everyone's input.

Here's the deal.

New filter. New media. Tank looks and smells much better, fish are more active. I almost wonder if they were "suffocating" from all the meds, gunk, salt, etc. Still smells a bit of Pima Fix, but not too much.

Old media was tossed.

Other than CopperSafe and Pima Fix and Mela Fix, I have added nothing else in the way of meds. One water change/gravel vac right before adding new filter and media.

I have been adding Cycle and Aqua Plus water conditioner since adding the new filter.

Temp 81 degrees.

I do not have my parameters handy, will report them this evening when I get home from work.

Cannot move the fish to a quarantine tank because I literally cannot get them out of their home tank. I have a piece of driftwood with nooks and crannies in it and the fish wedge themselves into it.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why these three clowns and pleco are still alive. I also can't understand why a nearly perfect tank could go so bad so quickly.

This is "Part One" of my answer. I will have to continue part II in a little bit.

Thanks so much for everyone's help. And thanks for not beating me over the head for what may have been a huge screwup.

Mary..

Some salt is alright. If you were seeing a white chalky film than you definitely had an over abundance of salt in the tank. Yes, this could be part of the reason that the water quality in your tank was a problem and partly the cause that you have had a problem in the tank for soo long. Years ago home aquarists used salt to treat Ich. I can not imagine that between the salt and the Coppersafe that the Ich could have survived for three weeks.

I am going to throw another theory out there. When your son added the salt do you know if by chance he dissolved it in tank water prior to adding it to the tank? If not, salt in crystal form can irritate the skin on a fish to the point of causing "burns". Before you add anymore chemicals to this tank make sure what you need to be treating for. If you can't clearly diagnose the problem on your own then take a couple of the fish to a reputable fish store and ask them to help you decide what is wrong with the fish at this point.

Take a sample of the water with you and have them test it for all the regular elements and also ask them to test your water for salinity to make sure you have the salt level down to acceptable levels. Cross check their numbers with yours.

Cory, I am not so sure I would advise her to try and save the old media if it is still wet. You are risking a whole world of nasty bacteria growth that you don't want anywhere near the water. Besides, there should be enough buildup of nitrifying bacteria in the substrate to keep the cycle moving along relatively well. Even if she ransacked the gravel there should be enough in there to handle the tank. If anything, maybe add some of the Bio Spira that you mention often or the New Improved Cycle.

As for removing the Copper... If I read everything right, you originally had the dose of Coppersafe at 75%. You did a 50% water change. On your second water change of 50% you added back another 50% dose of Coppersafe. You have since done another water change at 50%. The copper sulfate should still be active since the last dose was only a week ago. If you do one more water change at 50% your tank should be clear of the Coppersafe then you can proceed in whatever fashion you wish.

Still no news from Hagen. I sent them another email two days ago.

READ CAREFULLY and please answer any questions I've raised.

Mary, did you ADD a filter or REPLACE one? If you replaced it, did you save the media from the original filter? If not, then you have pretty much got an uncycled tank. The good bacteria was living in that original filter.

Copper does not come out with activated carbon. It takes a series of water changes. You can do up to 30% daily to remove it. I would say a good 4 times before your levels go down. I was amazed how long it stayed in my tank, as measured with a copper tester, with daily 20% changes.

DO NOT dose anything else in this tank while there is a chance of any copper left - unless you want to kill your fish. Copper and other ich meds don't mix. You do either or, but not both.

You are probably further ahead to stick with the copper for now as the fish will be exposed to swarmers for days while you do partial water changes.

Sometimes the more you try to do, the worst you will make it so try to leave things static. If you threw out the old filter and media AND if it is not contaminated and still wet, go grab it and stick it in the tank where it will be near water flow. With all those fish and a brand new filter you the ich could be the least of your issues.

I think it would help if you could get some digital pictures uploaded. If you don't have a camera, ask a friend to help you. We need to see these persistent spots.

I want to know one major thing: Are any fish flashing or scratching while having these white spots? Are any fish flashing or flicking at all? If not, then you aren't dealing with parasites, but possibly a stubborn post ich infection. This is why I recommend a combination of Melafix and Pimafix. If those don't work, we may need to move to something like Fungus Eliminator, but NOT YET. A full 7-10 days on the botanicals is needed unless you see visible signs of it getting much worse.

WATER CHANGES MUST BE MADE WITH SAME TEMP WATER (+/-1.5 F) OR YOU RISK MORE ICH, OR WORSE INFECTION

Now, having said that, what is the temp right now? If you have a body fungus deal causing those white spots, then you don't want to be sitting at 80F. Reduce the temp by ONLY 1-1.5F daily. Be careful or you'll bring on more ich. Body Fungus (Columnaris) is more virulent above 77F. Ordinarily I'd recommend 76 or 75, but with Clowns, at leasat get to 77F, the low end of their scale.


Post your current parameters:

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Temp:

Last edited by Cory_Di at 28-Feb-2005 23:59

the last two Clown loaches I bought came with Ich, and as far as I was concerned there was nothing to treat them with - really should have checked here!

I basically changed the water - about 25% every two days, the aim being to keep the water quality perfect - everything at 0 and ph at 7'6. i kept the temp at 78/9 and fed them all gel food enriched with vitamins(that made me feel better!) I was trying to give them the best shot at shaking it - lowering the numbers of ich and giving them nothing else to deal with in terms of water quality.

I think I could have just got lucky cos they both survived . I do think dealing with a lot of meds can be difficult but bear in mind Cory Di is one of the most knowledgable people here.

its a tough one but i would change some water(25%?) - very carefully and feed them good quality food till Cory comes up with the answer!(no pressure COry!)
GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

I dosed half strength CopperSafe, noticed the fish seemed okay (save for the Ich of course), then added to about 3/4 dose. Spots are still there. Flashing like crazy. No deaths. I thought the spots would fall off by now. It's been about five days. I thought I had Ich a few weeks ago (saw one suspicious speck on Clown Loach) when I started this thread, but it was on a fish who hides all the time anyway. The next I saw her, there were no spots so I thought false alarm. Now I know better and am kicking myself and feel like a terrible fish mom.

Wow! What a wealth of information. Thank you all so much. I am reluctant with heat method, as I have many Panda Corys and they prefer cooler water. I have found some Rid Ich Plus and hopefully that will do the trick. Thanks again, I have learned so much. Wish me luck!

Start with half dose and monitor the fish closely.

When treating with Coppersafe, do you do one dose then after a few days do a water change/gravel vac and then add more? Or do you dose every day? I am confused on that.

I have successfully treated my Clown Loaches with CopperSafe.

Coppersafe is very stable in water and wont leach out. In other word, you don't have to redose it unless you change water. Then you only redose the amount you changed the water for.

HTH

Regards,
FMZ

Thanks for that advice. I just wish they'd quit flashing. I purchased some RidIch Plus but at the last minute found a bottle of CopperSafe in my aquarium supplies. So I am using the COpperSafe. I just feel so sorry for my fish.

How much Coppersafe did you add and to what size of a tank?

If you are still seeing flashing and you don't see any spots on the fish, how do their gills look? Puffy and red at all?

I went ahead and did a 50% water change last night as soon as I signed off here. I added Cycle and AquaPlus water conditioner (as I always do when performing water changes) as well as some more Copper Safe. Found a dead pleco. Things are not looking good. I don't understand it. That tank has been so stable for months and months. Let's hope today brings improvement. Thanks for the support

When I do water change, I am very very careful to match the new water to the exact degree of the outgoing water. I think the copper is okay, it's the ich that killed that pleco. He was just coated in spots. I have never seen anything like it. The clown loaches are swimming around, doing their little figure 8's, but their fins are clamped a bit and they STILL have the spots. I am at a loss as to what to do. I don't dare put anything else in that tank (meds) with the CopperSafe in there. My rasboras and my tetras are fine, with no ich, as are my Panda Corys. It's my plecos, clown loaches and one of two angelfish that have it. I am getting very very nervous and upset about this. I will be devasted to no end if I lose those clown loaches. I have had them almost a year now and they have grown and have been so healthy.

If anyone else is not looking well, I'd do a partial water change to pull some of the copper out. Maybe it's just too much for them.

Ich, however, has a way of getting into the gills where it can't be seen. Ich in the gills is very deadly and fish can drop with no other apparent signs of ill health.

If you have many fish reacting, then it just may be too much copper for them.

When you did the water change, did you monitor your before and after temps? This is critical, especially with ich going on. A large water change like that you would not want to alter temp by 3 or 4 degrees in the process, especially downward.