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It would be best to have a copper tester to know what your copper level is.

I recommend this one:

http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/copper%2ctest%2ckit/Class//T1/F73+1044+0403/EDP/43950/Itemdy00.aspx

If you dosed it at half strenth, then did a 50% water change and added in another half dose, you could have more than a half dose if the organics in your aquarium did not soak some up. Repeating that could take the level higher. I just think it is helpful to see what your copper level is before redosing too much.

I would continue using Pimafix for minimum of 7 days.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 23-Feb-2005 20:25

No I haven't heard back from them yet.

Mary, I wouldn't add anymore Coppersafe for now. I am not so sure what you are dealing with. Ich is very distinguishable. You mention possible fungus. Coppersafe would do nothing to help cure any fungus.

Do the spots look like grains of salt or do they appear fuzzy?

The spots were definite spots at first. Still that way on the remaining plecos. The loaches now have white around the edges of their tails. I am at a loss. Should I at least do a water change? Then add more mela/pima fix? On the bright side of things, my Panda COrys have never been happier

I'm so sorry, but I am getting desperate. I think I am going to do a water change tonight, 50%. The tank looks so awful with all the meds. I am afraid I am going to lose all my loaches.

Mary...

I wish I could advise you on the use of the Melafix and PimaFix combo. I have never been a fan of Melafix and I've never used Pimafix so I have no idea what the effect of these two would be with Coppersafe. So far we know that you have added the Aqua Plus, Cycle, Coppersafe, Melafix and PimaFix. I can't honestly say how any or all of these ingredients would interact with each other. Were there any others?

Go ahead and do the partial water change only adding back in what you need to dechlor the water. Nothing else. If you can set up a hospital tank and move the Pleco's away from the healthy fish, I would.

It is time to focus on the water quality and get that back to acceptable conditions.

Are you aerating this tank? If not do so.

Well, beat me over the head folks, but I did a 50% water change tonight and added a half dose of CopperSafe and more PimaFix and MelaFix. I am desperate here. My largest clown loach now has a mouth that looks almost like it is stuck open. This happened to me twice before, early on in my aquarium career, and both loaches died. I don't want to lose this one. She has grown so strong and healthy. The Pleco that is infected (the other is not) still is coated with spots. Clown loach just has white around the edges of her tail and a spot or two on her face. The other two clown loaches MAY be getting better. I am sooooo puzzled here. CopperSafe for 10 days now, PimaFix for four days and the addition of Mela Fix three days ago. What gives?

And now, to top it all off, I am developing horrid brown algae!!! There is also white specks on the side of the tank. THey are somewhat stringy looking, albeit very short in lenght. What's up with that???? I am going to buy a copper testing kit tomorrow and see if the water conditioner is cancelling out the CopperSafe.

Thanks for listening to me babble, everyone. I know I sound like a soap opera, but these are my babies :#(:#(

Tammy, I was so upset I didn't even see your response at first. Sorry

I am definitely aerating. The Pima Fix seems to soothe the fish a little. Not sure what the MelaFix does. I only had them because I had this same thing happen when I first got this particular tank, a year ago.

NOw I have brown algae developing and stringy white things (very very small) on the glass. Is that algae starting? probably not getting cleaned off 'cause the Plecos are sick. I am afraid to move only some of the fish. The Pandas miraculously are doing great. I can't explain that. Last night they were power diving all over the place. But I worry --- what if whatever this is is dormant for them and they need treated too?

Well, off to go cry I guess. This really is making me sick to my stomach. I am far too attached to this aquafriends of mine :#(

Mary...

I'm sorry, I've been working alot of hours lately and haven't had the chance to sit down at the computer often.

Recheck all of your parameters. Test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and your pH. If you can, test for gH and kH as well. Sounds like your water quality may be deteriorating. I am beginning to think this tank has real issues and that is why you can't beat whatever disease/infestation you have going on in it.

Still no news back from Hagen. That disappoints me.

Are the "white things" on the glass moving? Have you been regularly vacuuming the gravel in this tank? Are the fish eating and have they been devouring all the food you put in the tank at feeding time. Is this tank the one you were mentioning as being "stinky" in another thread?

Does this tank have real plants? If so, are you fertilizing them?

Huge REVELATION this weekend. Seems my stepson decided to take matters into his own hands do a salt treatment on the infected plecos he bought for me. (It was not quarantined, he just put it in the tank, trying to be nice). When he noticed spots he panicked. He overheard me talking about salt treatments. He followed the directions on the carton and dosed all at once. It was about that time that i noticed Ick (or whatever!) and started medicating. I did not test the water once I started the meds. Shame on me, I know.

The fish were bad Saturday night. I did another 50% change, added no meds. Yesterday I added new cannister filter to tank (the AquaClear 500 I have to wonder if it was not functioning properly, the whole tank was getting so stagnant).

Last night, the three clown loaches were out dancing their figure 8's like there was no tomorrow. And this a.m. the plecos were on the glass again. Seems that the added water movement (and the removal by me of that awful filter and the plastic plants that had gone brown) did wonders for them.

Could that salt have been the root of all these problems? And could it be the culprit in the white chalking looking (but moving with the current) film on the inside of the tank? What else would make a tank that was so beautifully stable for almost a year go bad?

I know I have taken hugely drastic measures. For now, it seems the fish are happier. I will check their spots tonight. I know I am taking chances changing the filters that way, but I had to do something.

Let me further explain why I replaced the filter. The tank got so putrid in such a short amount of time (with all the meds, the salt, and suddenly brown algae) that I was desperate to clear it up. I decided to take out all of the meds with the new filter and carbon. I know this was drastic. The tank looks remarkably better tonight, and the fish are now very very active. Problem is, the spots remain, after what, 2-3 weeks?? Would it be safe to add some Ick Guard II and try to start all over? There is some remaining CopperSafe in the tank. I am afraid to add the Ick Guard II for fear of reaction. Help. I think I have probably really screwed up out of desperation :#(

the last two Clown loaches I bought came with Ich, and as far as I was concerned there was nothing to treat them with - really should have checked here!

I basically changed the water - about 25% every two days, the aim being to keep the water quality perfect - everything at 0 and ph at 7'6. i kept the temp at 78/9 and fed them all gel food enriched with vitamins(that made me feel better!) I was trying to give them the best shot at shaking it - lowering the numbers of ich and giving them nothing else to deal with in terms of water quality.

I think I could have just got lucky cos they both survived . I do think dealing with a lot of meds can be difficult but bear in mind Cory Di is one of the most knowledgable people here.

its a tough one but i would change some water(25%?) - very carefully and feed them good quality food till Cory comes up with the answer!(no pressure COry!)
GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

READ CAREFULLY and please answer any questions I've raised.

Mary, did you ADD a filter or REPLACE one? If you replaced it, did you save the media from the original filter? If not, then you have pretty much got an uncycled tank. The good bacteria was living in that original filter.

Copper does not come out with activated carbon. It takes a series of water changes. You can do up to 30% daily to remove it. I would say a good 4 times before your levels go down. I was amazed how long it stayed in my tank, as measured with a copper tester, with daily 20% changes.

DO NOT dose anything else in this tank while there is a chance of any copper left - unless you want to kill your fish. Copper and other ich meds don't mix. You do either or, but not both.

You are probably further ahead to stick with the copper for now as the fish will be exposed to swarmers for days while you do partial water changes.

Sometimes the more you try to do, the worst you will make it so try to leave things static. If you threw out the old filter and media AND if it is not contaminated and still wet, go grab it and stick it in the tank where it will be near water flow. With all those fish and a brand new filter you the ich could be the least of your issues.

I think it would help if you could get some digital pictures uploaded. If you don't have a camera, ask a friend to help you. We need to see these persistent spots.

I want to know one major thing: Are any fish flashing or scratching while having these white spots? Are any fish flashing or flicking at all? If not, then you aren't dealing with parasites, but possibly a stubborn post ich infection. This is why I recommend a combination of Melafix and Pimafix. If those don't work, we may need to move to something like Fungus Eliminator, but NOT YET. A full 7-10 days on the botanicals is needed unless you see visible signs of it getting much worse.

WATER CHANGES MUST BE MADE WITH SAME TEMP WATER (+/-1.5 F) OR YOU RISK MORE ICH, OR WORSE INFECTION

Now, having said that, what is the temp right now? If you have a body fungus deal causing those white spots, then you don't want to be sitting at 80F. Reduce the temp by ONLY 1-1.5F daily. Be careful or you'll bring on more ich. Body Fungus (Columnaris) is more virulent above 77F. Ordinarily I'd recommend 76 or 75, but with Clowns, at leasat get to 77F, the low end of their scale.


Post your current parameters:

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
Temp:

Last edited by Cory_Di at 28-Feb-2005 23:59

Mary..

Some salt is alright. If you were seeing a white chalky film than you definitely had an over abundance of salt in the tank. Yes, this could be part of the reason that the water quality in your tank was a problem and partly the cause that you have had a problem in the tank for soo long. Years ago home aquarists used salt to treat Ich. I can not imagine that between the salt and the Coppersafe that the Ich could have survived for three weeks.

I am going to throw another theory out there. When your son added the salt do you know if by chance he dissolved it in tank water prior to adding it to the tank? If not, salt in crystal form can irritate the skin on a fish to the point of causing "burns". Before you add anymore chemicals to this tank make sure what you need to be treating for. If you can't clearly diagnose the problem on your own then take a couple of the fish to a reputable fish store and ask them to help you decide what is wrong with the fish at this point.

Take a sample of the water with you and have them test it for all the regular elements and also ask them to test your water for salinity to make sure you have the salt level down to acceptable levels. Cross check their numbers with yours.

Cory, I am not so sure I would advise her to try and save the old media if it is still wet. You are risking a whole world of nasty bacteria growth that you don't want anywhere near the water. Besides, there should be enough buildup of nitrifying bacteria in the substrate to keep the cycle moving along relatively well. Even if she ransacked the gravel there should be enough in there to handle the tank. If anything, maybe add some of the Bio Spira that you mention often or the New Improved Cycle.

As for removing the Copper... If I read everything right, you originally had the dose of Coppersafe at 75%. You did a 50% water change. On your second water change of 50% you added back another 50% dose of Coppersafe. You have since done another water change at 50%. The copper sulfate should still be active since the last dose was only a week ago. If you do one more water change at 50% your tank should be clear of the Coppersafe then you can proceed in whatever fashion you wish.

Still no news from Hagen. I sent them another email two days ago.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Here's the deal.

New filter. New media. Tank looks and smells much better, fish are more active. I almost wonder if they were "suffocating" from all the meds, gunk, salt, etc. Still smells a bit of Pima Fix, but not too much.

Old media was tossed.

Other than CopperSafe and Pima Fix and Mela Fix, I have added nothing else in the way of meds. One water change/gravel vac right before adding new filter and media.

I have been adding Cycle and Aqua Plus water conditioner since adding the new filter.

Temp 81 degrees.

I do not have my parameters handy, will report them this evening when I get home from work.

Cannot move the fish to a quarantine tank because I literally cannot get them out of their home tank. I have a piece of driftwood with nooks and crannies in it and the fish wedge themselves into it.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why these three clowns and pleco are still alive. I also can't understand why a nearly perfect tank could go so bad so quickly.

This is "Part One" of my answer. I will have to continue part II in a little bit.

Thanks so much for everyone's help. And thanks for not beating me over the head for what may have been a huge screwup.

I keep clowns and they are kinda small, and I face an ICH problem every 3 months, for God alone knows what reason. But this is what worked for me all this while. A handfull of salt and 89 degrees F temperature (31 C). If the ICH survives this, which is rarely the case, or if one of my clowns is so badly hit and I feel paranoid, I use Rid All Plus at half dosage (that's recommended for loaches) for 3 days and do regular PWCs.

High temp, salt and sometimes Rid All do the trick for me.

I have never lost a clown to ICH. All my 15 clowns are hale and hearty.

Touch Wood!

Cory, I am not so sure I would advise her to try and save the old media if it is still wet. You are risking a whole world of nasty bacteria growth that you don't want anywhere near the water. Besides, there should be enough buildup of nitrifying bacteria in the substrate to keep the cycle moving along relatively well.

I should have mentioned that "IF" it had only been an hour or two, and I already specified that the media could only be brought back if not contaminated. If it was put into plastic an hour prior, there was air in the bag. A quick rinse and it would be good to go.

Mary, have you added BioSpira or NIC?

I do hope you have intentions of monitoring ammonia and nitrite daily for the next two weeks to be certain. Any tank with copper and salt has a slightly compromised bacterial colony as both hinder it, not to mention abrupt loss of an established filter. I'm not as confident as Tammy that the gravel alone can handle the load right now, but time will tell. All you need is a 0.5 ammonia or nitrite, or higher, going on daily for a while for some sensitive fish to start dropping.

Whenever changing filters, try to find a way to run them simultaneously for a time. This gives the second filter a chance to get seeded.

If you don't have them, I would strongly suggest Ammonia and Nitrite kits for now. If either is up due to the new filter, you will need to know so you can take corrective action to help the fish. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals provides the cheapest and easiest to read, and they last a good year or more. I replace them yearly.

When you get to Part 2, please address my question above on flashing/scratching.

Here's what the master kit looks like. The ammonia is in a golden yellow box, and the nitrite is in a dark pink box, if you buy them separately. Note that this test kit is only 12.99 at Big Al's and I've seen it as high as 27.99 locally.

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19383;category_id=3233;pcid1=;pcid2=


Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Mar-2005 10:17

Okay. This isn't quite "Part II" yet, as I am still at work.

The fish are definitely flashing. The white on their bodies is in the form of spots, and I looked at some pictures of fungus and it does not resemble that. Definitely looks like ICH. There are spots all over that poor pleco, and the clowns have them mainly on their tails, some on their heads. Also, the clowns tails are "eroding" on the edges. The fish appear to be eating, and they are quite active since I changed the filter and added additional movement in the water with the new filter.

I have a test kit. Last test was shortly before meds. I had the incorrect (??) assumption that meds messed with test results and I have not bothered.

Last reading: 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 20 Nitrate, and 8.5 (i think) PH. That is a normal PH reading for me. At least that is what it has always been.

I have been dosing with Cycle and Aqua Plus since I changed the filter, using the recommended amounts for a "new tank set-up."

I will pass along the test results this evening. I am almost afraid of what they will be. I have screwed up, I am afraid, and last night I just broke down and started crying. I wrecked a good thing.

Will check back later. Thanks again.

I might add, I am afraid to go much higher with the water temp, as I have Panda Corys. Perhaps they can endure a bit more heat, I am not sure.

Also, the fish I mentioned are the only ones who have the disease. There is a another pleco in there who is perfectly fine, as are my Angelfish (now, but one had something on it's fin a week ago) and my harlequin rasboras.

I purchased a copper test kit. Here are my parameters:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0
PH 8.4 or 8.8 (I have trouble distinguishing that test)
Copper 1.0

I have done nothing with the tank tonight save for adding N.I. Cycle and AquaPlus (AFTER I tested the water). No water changes.

Any suggestions? If I get that copper out of there would you suggest Ick Guard II for scaleless fish?? Or do you think I am barking up the wrong tree??

Thanks so much for your advises.

Try to get the copper to zero, or as close to zero as you can before dosing anything else. Only water changes will do it.

Now, I just looked up Ick Guard 2 and the active ingredient is Formalin. That is why it is deemed safe for scaleless fish and aquatic plants, unlike Malachite Green. But I can't be sure it is safe to dose with copper or not. You typically don't see copper with formalin.

Important note about formalin - it is a gas and you should NOT increase temp with it in the water as higher temps also mean less oxygen. Add the gas and fish have difficulty breathing.. I hope I have your attention with this as it is critical. I strongly recommend allowing the temp to drop 1F daily until you get down to 77F. No abrupt changes. In a tank that size, it will take time for the temp to drop anyway - like days. But I would only notch it down no more than 2F on your heater setting. A sudden drop will make matters worse.

With any product containing formalin, it would be good to drop in an extra airstone to push water up towards the surface where it can pick up extra o2. I would also start with just a half dose, when you have most of the copper out. See how the fish respond. You can always add a little more 2 hours later, if all are well.

Your cories are likely to be seen going up more frequently for air. As long as it is not every few seconds you should be ok, otherwise a water change to dilute would be helpful.

Now, you don't want to disturb your gravel right now as the gravel needs to hold the bioload while the new filter seeds.

I've used Pimafix and Melafix with Coppersafe, but I have not tried it with Formalin (Ick Guard-2). If you are unsure, just discontinue the day you put the Ick Guard in the tank. You should be able to start back up the next day. Since formalin is a gas, it won't be in the water that long. Follow directions as to what days you need to dose.

Mary, I'm wondering if the super high pH is not stressing the fish and prolonging this. You really need to do that pH test I suggested in another thread - checking it straight out of the tap, followed by a check at least 24 hours later after it sits out. Just put some in a small rubbermaid container or disposable container so that there is at least a half cup. Keep shaking it whenever you walk by, but take the lid off so gases can escape. I have a feeling there is something in your tank driving up the pH.

As an example, mine is 7.0 straight out of the ice cold tap, and it rises after 24 hours of bubbling to 8.0. Compressed gases come out.

We need to get a kH reading when you go back to the fish store, if you don't have kH tester. It is probably quite high.

Hang in there girl! This too shall pass.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Mar-2005 22:01

Hey folks. I'm new to this site but I'm in the middle of a similar crisis:
I've had my 19 gallon (US) tank for more than a year. The contents until 2 weeks ago was 2 clown loaches, a plec, 6 neon tetras, a pearl gourami and a silver hatchetfish. I've previously lost a couple of fish over the course of the year, mostly to explainable causes. I had Ich early on and after treating with a prodcut by Waterlife called Protizin, it was cured quickly and without incident. I had to treat again as a precaution when I bought the clown loaches. I've bought all my fish until now from Maidenhead Aquatics here in the UK, and as a large chain with experienced staff I've always found them pretty top-notch retailers.
Then, 2 weeks ago I was out of town and came across a small shop which had some Marbled Hatchetfish. I'd never heard of them, the tank looked in good condition so I bought two. BIG MISTAKE. After following the usual introductory procedure I noticed they had Ich the following day a day. Within 3 days most of my fish had some whitespot, and the loaches had begun flashing crazily around. On the 3rd day I began a treatment of protizin. By day 4, the one Marbled Hatchetfish had died, most fish had damaged fins and the clownloaches were covered in spots.
I stopped the Protizin course after 3 days at full dose, did a water change of 25% then did one day's treatment of Melafix in my frustration. That's when the other Marbled Hatchetfish died on me. I then realised the best chance of saving the others was a new course of Protizin at half dose and not Melafix. The last dose of that course was yesterday.

Today I woke to find the larger clownloach (my strongest fish) dead and covered with thick white slime. The other clownloach has very badly damaged fins and although it is still breathing (very quickly) I will have to destroy it.

This has been a total disaster. After investing time, money and emotion in my aquarium, some jerk who doesn't look after his stock properly has screwed the whole thing up. I have 3 fish dead, one at the threshold and others with fin damage because of the treatments.

I urge you all: only buy from reputable retailers (unless you can afford a quarantine tank - not me, a lowly student), and treat regularly for maladies, just in case.

Mary...

I'm sorry to throw something else at you... I see you mentioned treating the tank the other night with both Cycle and Aqua Plus. Is there a reason you treated with the Aqua Plus while not performing a water change? Do the instructions on the bottle advise doing this?

First of all to Chris: I am so sorry you are going through this as well. Maybe we will both get back on our feet soon. I sure hope so. In the meantime, please know I am sympathizing with you.

Okay, about the Aqua Plus. It is supposed to be like the product "Stress Coat." It says it relieves stress in fish. Don't know if I believe that or not, but I figured it's worth a try.

So you think it's safe for me (after the copper is removed) to start with Formalin? I realize I will have to lower the water temp. Formalin and Copper are a big "no no" from what I have researched (and I have researched PLENTY).

I will test the water again tonight and let you know the new parameters.

What is the test that you mentioned I should buy? I have not heard of that.

Thanks again for your support. You have really been helping me cope with a tough time

RasboraMary,

I treated my Clowns with CopperSafe with increased overall temperature

It seems CopperSafe is not working for you.
I would do couple of small water changes (10-20%) over the next few days, get the Copper level down to 0


Also bump the temperature to 90F. ICK can't live over 89F
Once you don't see any ick on any fish, then I would do a good gravel vac.

After that, I would slowly decrease the temperature down to 75F +

HTH,
FMZ

kH is for Carbonate Hardness. It has a bearing on pH in the tank. The higher the kH, the higher the pH, unless you are adding supplemental co2. I suspect you have very high kH. Getting your pH down, is a matter of getting the kH down. I suspect the 8.4+ is stressful to the fish, if it is a true reading. 8.0 is pushing it, but many do fine at that level. But you're up into rift lake cichlid territory or even close to marine. Here is what the AP kit looks like if you can spot one in your fish store. It is good to have on hand, otherwise, you may need to purchase eventually online.

[link=http://champkoi.com/test_kits/]http://champkoi.com/test_kits/" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Here is the Hagen version, which is also good, but more pricey.

[link=http://www. /prod146.htm]http://www. /prod146.htm" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Paper test strips are ok, but generally cost more per test and don't last as long, and are harder to read. Liquid is better all the way around and I like AP, in particular.

While we wait for the results of that can you please break explain the following (copy and paste to answer all):

1)What kind of substrate is it - almost white, natural tans/brown, black, colored (cyan, blue, pink, etc.)?

2)What is the texture of your substrate? Round, sharp, bits of broken down shell?

3)Do you have any shells in your tank (clam, sea, snail, etc.) If so, describe it.

4)Do you have rocks in your tank? Describe the color and color pattern.

Let's start with that Mary, because I truly believe your pH out of the tap after 24 hours, will not read 8.4. If so, then you will need to soften that up a bit and there are ways to do that.

There are ways we can test your substrate and rocks by placing a drop of vinegar on them after drying and looking for fizz. If it fizzes, you don't want it in your tank.

1)What kind of substrate is it - almost white, natural tans/brown, black, colored (cyan, blue, pink, etc.)?

It is mainly small but some vary (1/2 inch to 1 inch diam) stones, pearlescent, mainly natural looking with some very very faint light blue and pink stones.

2)What is the texture of your substrate? Round, sharp, bits of broken down shell?

Roundish (some oblong), smooth.

3)Do you have any shells in your tank (clam, sea, snail, etc.) If so, describe it.

Nothing artificial (as far as shells etc.) has been added to tank except some artificial plants. Oh, and I do have a log thing in the tank that is supposedly safe for both reptiles and fish. It said so anyway on the tag, I was careful to check. I think it is heavy plastic or ceramic. It looks like a real tree log.

4)Do you have rocks in your tank? Describe the color and color pattern. I have petrified wood in the tank. Also, I have two pieces of driftwood in the tank. The one is very different, although I see a lot of it at the LFS. It is called Bayou Driftwood. It does seem to collect a bit of algae at times, but nothing devasting. Interestingly, the other piece of driftwood never has algae or anything on it. I am somewhat suspect that this Bayou Driftwood may be causing the "stink" in the water. Have had that "stink" even with good test numbers, for almost a year now.

I think I answered all of your questions ? I hope so. I will try to find that test on my way home from work.

Thanks for your help. What I cannot believe is that these fish are still hangin' on.

Well, Mary - it does not sound like you have anything in the tank driving up pH. But, when you get a chance, take several pieces of your gravel, rub them free of grime and slime and let them dry. Then use ordinary white vinegar and put a drop on each piece and see if any of them fizz.

I'm also wondering if your tester is good. When you take water to the lfs to check your kH, have them check the pH with a high range tester. And, ask them what pH they get on their tanks and whether they adjust it at all. If it is a close store, find out if they use the same water source. That really tells you something. My water is the same as all of my lfs, in terms of pH. No one adjusts and so we all stand between 7.7 and 8.0 on any tank, depending on age.

8.4+ - that's something. But don't play with the pH using any products. some will really make it yoyo. WE just need to verify that it is really that high and not something wrong with your test kit.

Hi! GOSH you are so helpful. I cannot thank you enough.

My numbers are the same tonight (after water change) except for copper. It is now 0.50. I am not yet comfy adding formalin after everything i have heard about mixing copper and formalin.

That PH has always been high. After I answered all your questions, I thought, "Heck"!!! (sic) I have a 65 gallon hex with totally different substrate and driftwood and the PH is STILL high.

Now, I am not sure what drives PH readings. Never have been. Does soft water make a difference??

My pleco looks somewhat better this evening (spots SEEM to be disappearing) and clowns were out swimming again after water change. They still have spots on their tails and I want to add that Ick Guard II in the worst way. But I refuse to do so until copper all gone. Their tails look corroded and have spots. BUt other than their bodies looking somewhat "worn", they seem otherwise happy. Is this just the weirdest thing or what???? And it's going on three weeks since first spot noticed.

A note to the poster who said to raise temps to 90. I cannot do so. I have Panda Corys. I don't think they could handle it.

Thanks again for your help. I am testing a tube out of the tap for PH. Will report back tomorrow.

Everyone on this forum is a GEM
/:'

BTW, my LFS handles that test kit, but was out of it. They will have more on Tuesday.

That kH number is what we need to know. We need a kH reading out of the tank in question, and a kH reading out of your cold tap. For kH, it does not need to sit.

It is doubtful that you have soft water with pH that high. Do you have well water or city water? There are many ways to soften your water. One way people do it is with reverse osmosis water, but that is a pricey venture if you don't already have one. If you use 100% RO, then there are minerals you add back to get the appropriate hardness and other things needed. But, you can also mix the RO - like 20% RO and 80% regular tap to keep your tank at a certain level, as an example. If that is troublesome, you can buy something like a peat pack to put in your filter. It softens the water. But, DO have your lfs check your pH independently, with a high range test kit. Let's be absolutely certain your kit isn't "off". Also, when you go back, ask him if his tanks are running that high. If he uses the same water and his pH is lower, ask if he does anything to lower it. Just don't let him sell you anything just yet - especially products like pH down. They will make the pH yoyo all over the place and bounce right back up the next day.

0.5 copper is getting there. If you want to speed things up, you can do two water changes several hours apart. Instead of a 30% change, do two 20% changes and see what your copper reads the next morning.

Keep tabs on that ammonia and nitrite before you do water changes. I would hate to see that creep up on you. Everything may be fine in that regard and I hope Tammy is right about the substrate holding a good amount of bacteria. Just try not to disturb it during gravel vacs. If you find even a small amount, make sure you hit the tank with more of your bacterial starter, be it BioSpira, Cycle, Stress Zyme, Fritz Zyme.

The Melafix or Pimafix you add should help with those "sores" or rough spots left from the ich.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 21:21

FINALLY!!

From:
Customer Service-USA <customer.service-usa@rchagen.com>
Subject: Re: AquaPlus neutralizing Copper, ID No. 85357

Dear Tammy,

Yes Aqua Plus will neutralize Copper. Please reply if you have any
further questions.

Thank you,
Sharon Emond, Customer Service Dept.
Rolf C. Hagen (USA) Corp.

CONTACT FORM AQUATIC

Name : * Tammy
Email : **************
City :
Province : Ohio
Zip/Postal code :
Country : * U.S.A.
Other :
Telephone :
Subject : * AquaPlus neutralizing Copper

Request :

Dear Sirs.. I am wondering if the use of Aqua Plus would neutralize Copper in an aquarium. I read where it neutralizes "heavy metals". Could someone please advise me on this? Thank you so much for your time.

*************

I guess now we know why the Coppersafe wasn't effective. Really is a shame. Good to know for the future though. I suspected the "neutralizes heavy metals" to be the case but I didn't want to debate that removing copper was only possible through water changes. Now I have to wonder what else the Aqua Plus will neutralize and just how long does the conditioner remain effective in your tank water. I am going to follow-up that email with more questions to Hagen.

If you are wondering what you could use to prepare your water for use to remove chlorine/chloramine so this doesn't happen again, we use a product called Insto Chlor made by Jungle.

Last edited by Tammy at 03-Mar-2005 07:18

How do we explain the copper levels?

I ran into this with Prime, after using Coppersafe. It occurred to me that maybe I was removing the copper with Prime since it treats heavy metals. That's when I wondered if Copper was a heavy metal or not.

It's at that point that I decided to get a tester and found my copper levels elevated, in comparison to tap water, which was zero. Water changes brought it down.

Mary is getting positive readings on copper. But, I'm wondering if it doesn't neutralize it in a way that readers still see it, but it is ineffective for parasites.

This is going to be quick, more later.

That REALLY ticks me off about the AquaPlus and CopperSafe. I asked LFS about it and they confidently answered "no, Aqua Plus will not neutralize copper." GRRR!!! Thank you sooooo much for finding that out for me. I did a water change last week with no AquaPlus and added some CopperSafe. That may be why I am getting a small copper reading. I am so livid!!!

YOU are a genious, by the way, for figuring that one out. Thanks so much for your investigative work. Kudos to you and a A + .

I will get back with the numbers tonight.

Mary

How do we know that Insta-Chlor won't do the same thing? If it doesn't, that's great. I want to buy some on my home tonight. Thanks.

Insto Chlor removes chlorine/chloramine nothing more.

Mary is getting positive readings on copper. But, I'm wondering if it doesn't neutralize it in a way that readers still see it, but it is ineffective for parasites.

Exactly Diane.

Mary I am so sorry that we did not know this for certain earlier.

I spoke with Virbac the makers of Coppersafe alittle while ago. They said that it still would not be safe to use any other external parasite remedy while you still are getting readings for Copper. They said to make sure that the test kit you are using to check your copper levels needs to be one specifically for testing Chelated Copper. Any other type and you will not get an accurate reading for what you have in the water. It should say "Chelated" right on the package.

Now... the lady did tell me that using a Poly Filter will remove any copper from the tank. I found it at the MarineDepot.com website listed under Filter Media. Item Number PB1111.

Here is a description of the product..

Poly Filter
Poly Filter is a highly absorbent pad that will quickly and efficiently remove impurities and medications from aquarium water. It also removes phosphates which contribute to unwanted microalgae. It changes color when exhausted. Size: 4" x 8".

I think I am going to get a few of these for myself. Sounds like a good item to have.

Good work, Tammy.

I've always wondered how to contact Mardel. They are Virbac? Can you give me contact info?

Actually, this just dawned on me. I had been using STress COat the last couple of water changes, not Aqua Plus. I am sooooo sorry I spaced out on this one. That is probably why there is still copper in the tank. With everything going on, it slipped my mind that when I went to LFS they sold Stress Coat to me because it was on sale and "the same thing" as AquaPlus. Obviously it is NOT. I am sorry everybody. I have way too much on my plate lately

On an advertisement for Stress Coat..

Instantly removes chlorine and chloramines, making tap water safe for fish. Neutralizes heavy metals. Also, replaces the natural slime coating fish need in times of stress, such as handling, shipping or fighting. Contains Aloe Vera, nature's liquid bandage, to prevent the loss of essential electrolytes and protect damaged tissue against disease-causing organisms. Helps heal torn fins and skin wounds. Use when setting up aquarium, changing water, or adding fish.



Last edited by Tammy at 03-Mar-2005 14:37

I wonder how I would use the Poly Filter? I have a Fluval 404 cannister filter. Would I just use it for a day to get the existing meds out? Put it in in place of the arbon? Then remove, then add the new medicine, then put back in again once fish are cured?? My copper kit, by the way, does say "chelated." I remember seeing that when I read it the other night. I am at work right now and have not tested water yet today. WIll do so tonight.

Mary - please let us know which kit you have. I have the one by Red Sea, and it discusses chelated copper, but doesn't mention if it tests for it.

I believe polyfilters are just square pads you can cut down to size to put into any filter situation. I used a similar one for phosphate removal.

According to the woman from Virbac you don't even have to put the poly filter in anything. Just put it in the tank. I would just use the poly filter until you don't get any detectable readings of copper.

Diane, I got the contact info off the bottle of Coppersafe. The phone number is 1-800-338-3659. Their hours are 8-5 CST. The company that manufactures Coppersafe must have changed their name. A few years ago they wre known as StJon's Laboratories. Not sure when they changed over to Virbac. I am still not sure how the name Mardel was tied into all of this.

I have to say, I am getting very very sick of all of this. It is wearing me down.

I went ahead and bought a poly filter (LFS has them for $9.98), after reading the instructions this is a great little "tool," and can be used on a permanent basis to remove "organic" materials, etc., and says it does not need carbon to accompany it.

The filter turns a certain color depending on what it is removing. In the case of copper, it turns blue. After a water change last night and five hours with the poly filter, I was down to zero copper and the filter was way blue. I left the poly filter in place overnight for added "security."

This a.m. I removed the polyfilter (these things are reusable) and I added some Ick Guard II (formalin). Aeration is increased and water temp slightly lowered.

My fingers are crossed. The loaches were out of hiding when I left for work this a.m. No one was gasping or going to the top of the tank (so I am hoping the formalin is okay with them).

I cannot thank everyone enough for their help. This saga will continue for awhile I am sure. Special thanks to Tammy and CoryDi for "babysitting" me. I appreciate all the legwork.

I am so exhausted..................................

one happy footnote..............through it all, my Angels spawned last night. Amazing in such a volatile tank

Sorry, all these "afterthoughts." I wanted to specifically point out that I am going to work on the PH issue and find out what is up with that. I can get the recommended test on Tuesday. I will report back at that time. The PH has not (??) caused issues in over a year. My pandas and angels spawn regularly, and until now, Ihave had very few disease-related deaths. But I do think it must be investigated. Since i am totally clueless when it comes to issues of PH, I will really really need your help and advises after the test results.

If the fish are happy and spawning, then in the end it may be good to leave well enough alone, but at least get a comparison with an lfs testing your pH. They'll need to use a high range tester. Maybe your tester is faulty, especially if it is older.

Good luck.

Did you use a full dose of Ick Guard 2?

I notice it even says its safe for plants, so that's pretty cool. It has a small amount of acriflavine, victoria green, and nitromersal (sp?) in it. It can't be much because at least the first two are usually hard on plants, but they do say it is plant safe.

I did not dose full strength yet. I was afraid to. I hate being away at work all day wondering what is going on with that tank.

I think Tammy should start a new thread about the possible AquaPlus interfering with the CopperSafe. It makes so much sense and I would dare say many other people have been through the same thing and are frustrated.

I will hopefully be able to report back tonight. I need to test the water when I get home. I am expecting some changes in the numbers because of the new filter and the water changes, but so far so good.

Take care

ick is really easy to treat if you just use Aquarisol. it is a little strong but works excellently. also, try to raise the temp of your tank a bit... clown loaches can be sensitive to colder waters.

I have never heard of Aquarisol. Is it safe for scaleless fish? I certainly do not need another remedy in my tank at this point, but it's always good to have info for future reference.

The reason Cory Di asked me to lower the temp is that I am now treating with Formalin which is a gas. A slightly lower temp will be healthier for the loaches when being treated with that med. I know they like their warm water, though, and will very gradually increase the temp after they are feeling better.

Thanks for your input.

Aquarisol is copper sulfate - just like Coppersafe.

Mary is right. Since changing to a product with formalin, you don't want really high temps because formalin is a gas and robs the water of some o2. Add the higher temp and fish are gasping. Mary would have to add more devices (pumps or lots of airstones) to ciruclate the water where it could pick up more o2 at the surface, at higher temps.

I think 1/2 dose is smart being that you are not home. Hopefully you can up that a little while you are home, but remember it is a gas so much may be gone by the time you get there. The product should mention when you can repeat. You may want to do it on Saturday when you can observe.

Okay, here are my numbers tonight:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Copper: 0
PH: ?? I tried using both low end test and high end today. The low end color most closely resembled 7.6 but was a little darker. The high end test doesn't really match anything but is a bit dark and close to 8.4ish. I am going to buy new PH test Tuesday along with that kH test.

It kind of bothers me that the Nitrate is zero. It has never been zero. Should I be concerned about this? Or be happy?

Per Ick Guard II instructions, I did another dose today. This one full strength. The fish seem to be accepting of the meds in the water. no one is gasping, etc. I also dosed with more New Improved Cycle and AquaPlus water conditioner. Aeration continues, and water temp is 79 now.

Should I start seeing improvement on the ich fish soon? Or am I being too impatient? I am not sure at what point I can tell that the meds are effective.

My rubber plece: poor little chest looks like someone put salt on him. It just kills me to see this.

The clowns have been hiding a lot (except the day I put in the new filter and they came out for awhile to play in the bubbles). Today, however, two of the three were playing. I think maybe they feel a little better although they don't look that great. I still just cannot believe these fish are still alive. I started this thread on Feb. 8, one month ago!

Tank still smells like total putrifaction. I think it's the driftwood. It has never seemed to harm the fish in the past, I am not sure if I should remove it or not. Besides, it's the loaches' favorite hiding spot. Could driftwood make the water stink like algae?

One small little miracle (besides the Angels spawning): Just days before this thread began, I spotted the teeniest little Panda Cory fry. I actually caught him in the vaccuum (I wonder how many of his siblings I didn't see and they got a Kohler funeral) Through the salt, the meds, all the gravel vacs etc. I figured he was gone for good. Surprise!!! I just found him and he is precious

Have a good weekend!

I did the same with a cory fry and gently put him back.

I would not dose the Aquaplus with the meds. I don't know if it is neutralizing the victoria green portion. There is really no need to keep adding conditioner. I also have a feeling that is where your odor is coming from. Take a whiff of that stuff in the bottle and see if it smells like your tank.

When you do water changes, add the conditioner. Just keep checking your parameters daily for a while. Your nitrates could be zero due to all the water changes . In time, and when you cut back on your water changes, maybe we'll see the nitrates return. Does AquaPlus claim to have anything that neutralizes or removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? If so, that would explain it too.

Hi. I thought I would step in since I use AquaPlus personally and I have had experience treating ich with it. I am an avid NON-believer in Copper (II) Sulfate treatments for external parasites, mainly because I love my inverts, but also because it isn't easily *pulled* from the water column. I am so sorry you had to go through all of this.

Anyway, as far as current treatment issues go, I can answer a few questions about AquaPlus. AquaPlus does NOT neutralize Ammonia or any other product of the nitrogen cycle. It removes chlorine and chloramine, neutralizes heavy metals and has some kind of stress coat additive and/or mild sedative effect.

The heavy metal neutralization is a double edged sword. Personally, it gives me peace of mind since I keep inverts and live in an older house with copper pipes and I feel more comfortable using my python with warm tap water with aqua plus. I am also concerned about other metals in my tap water that could be harmful to my fish in general. In that sense I like it. It may not be totally necessary but it helps me sleep at night I guess.

In this case, the action of the water conditioner has been unfortunate, but rather than write off a product like this one I think it would probably be best to suggest that hobbyists stay away from copper sulfate in general. IME&O with the parasite, medications that contain a combination of Malachite Green, Formalin and/or Acriflavine are much more effective and safer, especially when dealing with anything small, weak, scaleless, etc. Aside from the fact that they work regardless of water conditioner there are a few other benefits. If you overdose these medications or see any sign of adverse effects, they can be easily pulled with fresh activated carbon. They are also safe with invertibrates. Acriflavine is also a good preventative for secondary infection that is a big killer in ich outbreaks, and I highly recommend any medication containing it. I have personally used both Jungle's Ich Guard II (Malachite green, Acriflavine, formalin) and Rid Ich Plus with AquaPlus water conditioner successfully.

Here is a great article about Ich in general:

[link=http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php]http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link]

Should I add more formalin?? (Ich Guard II). Bottle said to dose, then add second dose 24 hours later. It doesn't say anything about going further with it. Does any know???

Thanks for the article about ich, I will read it as soon as I am done posting this.

My pleco looks almost like he is "disintegrating" today. Like how flaked tuna looks. That may be an exaggeration, but he does not look good. Time is running out I fear.

I am not quite sure what to think of the AquaPlus. I have always used it and had successes, but I am wondering if that is what is making tank smell. Or maybe Cycle. I add Cycle with every water change as "maintenance" per the instructions on the bottle.

Thanks for everyone's help.

I read the article. Fascinating. I am also beginning to wonder if the last paragraph applies to my situation:#(

Mary, have you checked your ammonia today? Is he shredding or is he giving off excess mucous?

Excess mucous could be from parasites or it could be from too many chemicals, including ammonia/nitrite.

If you have dosed twice in a row, then I'd give the tank a rest. Maybe there is something residual in there too that is mixing and irritating the fish. Give them just clean water.

Refresh my memory - is there salt in this tank? If so, it could be too much for the plec.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Mar-2005 16:13

I doubt very much that any smell in the tank would come from the AquaPlus, as I said, I use it and my tanks don't smell at all. If you're dosing the water conditioner at any time other than when you're doing water changes, please stop. The chemicals in water conditioner that remove chlorine/chloramine can be fairly dangerous if overdosed, and if you're dosing it to the tank unnecessarily you might have a buildup of chemicals in the tank from it. AquaPlus, and any other water conditioner like it is only meant to be used for water changes and when transporting fish.

The proper dose for AquaPlus if you just have chlorine in your water is 5 mL or one capful per 10 gallons. If you have chloramine in your tap water you need to dose an ADDITIONAL 10 mL or 2 capfuls per 10 US gallons. There is no reason to dose any more than that, the protective action of it is more for stress due to handling and poking around in the tank during maintenance. The bottle states that it uses "Pure Herbal Extracts" which I'm thinking are probably similar to what is found in melafix/pimafix.

So for example, if you have a 50 gallon tank and are doing a 20% water change, you need to replace 10 gallons of water. If you have chlorine and chloramine in your water you need to use 15 mL or 3 capfuls of AquaPlus. There is no need to dose any more than that, and doing so may be harmful. Again, it is only to be used to condition your tap water before adding it to the tank.

If you're looking for something that will speed healing of cuts and wounds from the ich parasite, melafix is the best you can use. It is nearly impossible to overdose accidentally and is not irritating to your fish in any way as long as you use the prescribed dose. It actually seems to have a bit of a soothing sedative effect which I find useful when treating with strong medications. I have used melafix in combination with Ich Guard II for very small (under one inch) fish with no problems.

Ich Guard II alone, when dosed daily at the proper level, should not show any irritating effect. I have never seen any peeling or visible increase in slime coat while using it. Please test your water as Di said, for now I would not dose anything to the tank except melafix and go back to the 30% water changes to pull whatever is irritating those fish from the water.

I am concerned by the fact that you said the tank "stinks." I have never had any noticable smell while using AquaPlus or cycle, and in general a bad smell to the water is not a good sign. What does it smell like? If it smells like sulphur or rotten eggs you need to check your substrate and water column for any anaerobic or stagnant pockets that will provide a breeding ground for bacteria that make hydrogen sulphide (a poison) as a waste product. Do you ever see any bubbles escape from the substrate when you vacuum? How often do you vacuum the substrate and how much current do you have in the tank? Also, do you move the aquarium decorations around to vacuum under them? I don't think I would blame the driftwood either, I really think something else is going on.

Blue-green algae can also smell bad IME, it smells a bit musty and just generally gross. Do you have any algae in the tank?

I went back in this thread and couldn't find a list of tank stock or the size of the tank....could you restate those please? I would also like to stress Di's suggestion to take a bag of tank water to the local fish shop for testing. The numbers I've seen posted in this thread just seem a bit "off" to me somehow and I think it is really a good idea to get that pH reading addressed ASAP. It is a good idea to bring a sample of aged tap water to the LFS when you go to have it tested for pH and KH as well to see if the high pH is occuring because of something in the tank.

I have just a few more questions....what size of filter are you using, what kind of filter media, and when was the last time you cleaned the filter out? Does the filter flow seem slower than it has been in the past? Inadequate filtration or current can lead to stagnation and a yucky smelling tank with sick fish in it.

Sorry for jumping in with a lot of questions, but at this point I think it is likely that your fish are suffering more from environmental issues than anything else. Resistant strains of ich are a bit of a myth (one of those scapegoats used as an explanation for suffering fish) in my opinion. It is much easier to suspect some weird coincidence when in fact the simplest (and often hard to accept) explanation is usually the cause. I'm not doubting that your fish had ich in the first place, but in my experience with the parasite it is usually only seen in fish that are already stressed from something else. Healthy, unstressed fish are usually fairly resistant to disease on their own.

Remember, it isn't the medicine that kills whatever is infecting your fish. Medication is a tool that aids the fish in fighting the infection themselves. If there are other factors making their immune systems weak and stressing them out you can bet they will have a very hard time healing and recovering.

If the tank is going back through a mini-cycle it can have an odor. I haven't had a new tank yet, not smell until the colony was fully established. I think the biocolony, breaking stuff down and converting it is what controls the odors, in part. My goldfish tank stunk so bad for the first 2 weeks. Once I was getting good nitrates (used BioSpira), the odor was completely gone.

Okay, here's the deal. And I appreciate your "jumping in" and helping out

72g bowfront. Current stock is (off the of my head anyway) : 12 Harlequin Rasboras, 3 Diamond Tetras, 10 Panda Corys, 2 Angelfish, 2 Rubber Plecos and 3 clown loaches. A bit overstocked, I am sure.

The tank has stunk since day one. That is why I am suspect of the driftwood. Tank #2 (65g hex) I treat the same way, and it does not stink. Only difference? It does not have driftwood. The driftwood I have is "bayou driftwood." And, yes, it does have blue algae sometimes. (the additional aerating seems to be clearing that though)

Even though it has stunk for a year plus, the tank has thrived. Until this latest bout anyway. I usuallly only use water conditioner upon water changes. Same w/Cycle.

I had an AquaClear 500 powerhead filter. It seemed to just not move the water enough and things were getting stagnant. I replaced it recently w/ Fluval 404 cannister. Tank looks a 1000 times better, but still stinks.

I do 30=40% water change AND gravel vac every two weeks (sometimes every 10 days).

I have lost rubber plecos before in same manner. Just like they "disintegrate." And they stink to high heaven when they are dead and it is way gross. I do not do well w/rubber plecs, for some reason and this one will be my last. My clown pleco, on the other hand, is unaffected by the recent turmoil.


Today I have done nothing w/the water.

HOW LONG TIL THE SPOTS SHOULD FALL OFF IF THE TREATMENT IS EFFECTIVE?
Again, thanks for your help and advises. Sooo much appreciated. Now I know why I flunked chemistry in high school. And this fish "stuff" is just like chemistry revisted

Okay, here's the deal. And I appreciate your "jumping in" and helping out

72g bowfront. Current stock is (off the of my head anyway) : 12 Harlequin Rasboras, 3 Diamond Tetras, 10 Panda Corys, 2 Angelfish, 2 Rubber Plecos and 3 clown loaches. A bit overstocked, I am sure.

The tank has stunk since day one. That is why I am suspect of the driftwood. Tank #2 (65g hex) I treat the same way, and it does not stink. Only difference? It does not have driftwood. The driftwood I have is "bayou driftwood." And, yes, it does have blue algae sometimes. (the additional aerating seems to be clearing that though)

Even though it has stunk for a year plus, the tank has thrived. Until this latest bout anyway. I usuallly only use water conditioner upon water changes. Same w/Cycle.

I had an AquaClear 500 powerhead filter. It seemed to just not move the water enough and things were getting stagnant. I replaced it recently w/ Fluval 404 cannister. Tank looks a 1000 times better, but still stinks.

I do 30=40% water change AND gravel vac every two weeks (sometimes every 10 days).

I have lost rubber plecos before in same manner. Just like they "disintegrate." And they stink to high heaven when they are dead and it is way gross. I do not do well w/rubber plecs, for some reason and this one will be my last. My clown pleco, on the other hand, is unaffected by the recent turmoil.


Today I have done nothing w/the water.

HOW LONG TIL THE SPOTS SHOULD FALL OFF IF THE TREATMENT IS EFFECTIVE?
Again, thanks for your help and advises. Sooo much appreciated. Now I know why I flunked chemistry in high school. And this fish "stuff" is just like chemistry revisted

PS: CoryDi, I have not done a water change since Thursday night. Parameters same tonight as last night. There was a huge overdose of salt about 3 weeks or so ago. None since, and i have done many water changes and scraped the sides of the tank for the salt residuals.

Not using Melafix or PimaFix right now. Haven't for about 10 days. PimaFix seems to turn my tank into "gunk." Is that typical?? Should I now add it?

When should I expect my clowns to drop their spots if the med is effective?

Thanks.

Mary