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According to the woman from Virbac you don't even have to put the poly filter in anything. Just put it in the tank. I would just use the poly filter until you don't get any detectable readings of copper.

Diane, I got the contact info off the bottle of Coppersafe. The phone number is 1-800-338-3659. Their hours are 8-5 CST. The company that manufactures Coppersafe must have changed their name. A few years ago they wre known as StJon's Laboratories. Not sure when they changed over to Virbac. I am still not sure how the name Mardel was tied into all of this.

I have to say, I am getting very very sick of all of this. It is wearing me down.

I went ahead and bought a poly filter (LFS has them for $9.98), after reading the instructions this is a great little "tool," and can be used on a permanent basis to remove "organic" materials, etc., and says it does not need carbon to accompany it.

The filter turns a certain color depending on what it is removing. In the case of copper, it turns blue. After a water change last night and five hours with the poly filter, I was down to zero copper and the filter was way blue. I left the poly filter in place overnight for added "security."

This a.m. I removed the polyfilter (these things are reusable) and I added some Ick Guard II (formalin). Aeration is increased and water temp slightly lowered.

My fingers are crossed. The loaches were out of hiding when I left for work this a.m. No one was gasping or going to the top of the tank (so I am hoping the formalin is okay with them).

I cannot thank everyone enough for their help. This saga will continue for awhile I am sure. Special thanks to Tammy and CoryDi for "babysitting" me. I appreciate all the legwork.

I am so exhausted..................................

one happy footnote..............through it all, my Angels spawned last night. Amazing in such a volatile tank

Sorry, all these "afterthoughts." I wanted to specifically point out that I am going to work on the PH issue and find out what is up with that. I can get the recommended test on Tuesday. I will report back at that time. The PH has not (??) caused issues in over a year. My pandas and angels spawn regularly, and until now, Ihave had very few disease-related deaths. But I do think it must be investigated. Since i am totally clueless when it comes to issues of PH, I will really really need your help and advises after the test results.

If the fish are happy and spawning, then in the end it may be good to leave well enough alone, but at least get a comparison with an lfs testing your pH. They'll need to use a high range tester. Maybe your tester is faulty, especially if it is older.

Good luck.

Did you use a full dose of Ick Guard 2?

I notice it even says its safe for plants, so that's pretty cool. It has a small amount of acriflavine, victoria green, and nitromersal (sp?) in it. It can't be much because at least the first two are usually hard on plants, but they do say it is plant safe.

I did not dose full strength yet. I was afraid to. I hate being away at work all day wondering what is going on with that tank.

I think Tammy should start a new thread about the possible AquaPlus interfering with the CopperSafe. It makes so much sense and I would dare say many other people have been through the same thing and are frustrated.

I will hopefully be able to report back tonight. I need to test the water when I get home. I am expecting some changes in the numbers because of the new filter and the water changes, but so far so good.

Take care

ick is really easy to treat if you just use Aquarisol. it is a little strong but works excellently. also, try to raise the temp of your tank a bit... clown loaches can be sensitive to colder waters.

I have never heard of Aquarisol. Is it safe for scaleless fish? I certainly do not need another remedy in my tank at this point, but it's always good to have info for future reference.

The reason Cory Di asked me to lower the temp is that I am now treating with Formalin which is a gas. A slightly lower temp will be healthier for the loaches when being treated with that med. I know they like their warm water, though, and will very gradually increase the temp after they are feeling better.

Thanks for your input.

Aquarisol is copper sulfate - just like Coppersafe.

Mary is right. Since changing to a product with formalin, you don't want really high temps because formalin is a gas and robs the water of some o2. Add the higher temp and fish are gasping. Mary would have to add more devices (pumps or lots of airstones) to ciruclate the water where it could pick up more o2 at the surface, at higher temps.

I think 1/2 dose is smart being that you are not home. Hopefully you can up that a little while you are home, but remember it is a gas so much may be gone by the time you get there. The product should mention when you can repeat. You may want to do it on Saturday when you can observe.

Okay, here are my numbers tonight:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Copper: 0
PH: ?? I tried using both low end test and high end today. The low end color most closely resembled 7.6 but was a little darker. The high end test doesn't really match anything but is a bit dark and close to 8.4ish. I am going to buy new PH test Tuesday along with that kH test.

It kind of bothers me that the Nitrate is zero. It has never been zero. Should I be concerned about this? Or be happy?

Per Ick Guard II instructions, I did another dose today. This one full strength. The fish seem to be accepting of the meds in the water. no one is gasping, etc. I also dosed with more New Improved Cycle and AquaPlus water conditioner. Aeration continues, and water temp is 79 now.

Should I start seeing improvement on the ich fish soon? Or am I being too impatient? I am not sure at what point I can tell that the meds are effective.

My rubber plece: poor little chest looks like someone put salt on him. It just kills me to see this.

The clowns have been hiding a lot (except the day I put in the new filter and they came out for awhile to play in the bubbles). Today, however, two of the three were playing. I think maybe they feel a little better although they don't look that great. I still just cannot believe these fish are still alive. I started this thread on Feb. 8, one month ago!

Tank still smells like total putrifaction. I think it's the driftwood. It has never seemed to harm the fish in the past, I am not sure if I should remove it or not. Besides, it's the loaches' favorite hiding spot. Could driftwood make the water stink like algae?

One small little miracle (besides the Angels spawning): Just days before this thread began, I spotted the teeniest little Panda Cory fry. I actually caught him in the vaccuum (I wonder how many of his siblings I didn't see and they got a Kohler funeral) Through the salt, the meds, all the gravel vacs etc. I figured he was gone for good. Surprise!!! I just found him and he is precious

Have a good weekend!

I did the same with a cory fry and gently put him back.

I would not dose the Aquaplus with the meds. I don't know if it is neutralizing the victoria green portion. There is really no need to keep adding conditioner. I also have a feeling that is where your odor is coming from. Take a whiff of that stuff in the bottle and see if it smells like your tank.

When you do water changes, add the conditioner. Just keep checking your parameters daily for a while. Your nitrates could be zero due to all the water changes . In time, and when you cut back on your water changes, maybe we'll see the nitrates return. Does AquaPlus claim to have anything that neutralizes or removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? If so, that would explain it too.

Hi. I thought I would step in since I use AquaPlus personally and I have had experience treating ich with it. I am an avid NON-believer in Copper (II) Sulfate treatments for external parasites, mainly because I love my inverts, but also because it isn't easily *pulled* from the water column. I am so sorry you had to go through all of this.

Anyway, as far as current treatment issues go, I can answer a few questions about AquaPlus. AquaPlus does NOT neutralize Ammonia or any other product of the nitrogen cycle. It removes chlorine and chloramine, neutralizes heavy metals and has some kind of stress coat additive and/or mild sedative effect.

The heavy metal neutralization is a double edged sword. Personally, it gives me peace of mind since I keep inverts and live in an older house with copper pipes and I feel more comfortable using my python with warm tap water with aqua plus. I am also concerned about other metals in my tap water that could be harmful to my fish in general. In that sense I like it. It may not be totally necessary but it helps me sleep at night I guess.

In this case, the action of the water conditioner has been unfortunate, but rather than write off a product like this one I think it would probably be best to suggest that hobbyists stay away from copper sulfate in general. IME&O with the parasite, medications that contain a combination of Malachite Green, Formalin and/or Acriflavine are much more effective and safer, especially when dealing with anything small, weak, scaleless, etc. Aside from the fact that they work regardless of water conditioner there are a few other benefits. If you overdose these medications or see any sign of adverse effects, they can be easily pulled with fresh activated carbon. They are also safe with invertibrates. Acriflavine is also a good preventative for secondary infection that is a big killer in ich outbreaks, and I highly recommend any medication containing it. I have personally used both Jungle's Ich Guard II (Malachite green, Acriflavine, formalin) and Rid Ich Plus with AquaPlus water conditioner successfully.

Here is a great article about Ich in general:

[link=http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php]http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link]

Should I add more formalin?? (Ich Guard II). Bottle said to dose, then add second dose 24 hours later. It doesn't say anything about going further with it. Does any know???

Thanks for the article about ich, I will read it as soon as I am done posting this.

My pleco looks almost like he is "disintegrating" today. Like how flaked tuna looks. That may be an exaggeration, but he does not look good. Time is running out I fear.

I am not quite sure what to think of the AquaPlus. I have always used it and had successes, but I am wondering if that is what is making tank smell. Or maybe Cycle. I add Cycle with every water change as "maintenance" per the instructions on the bottle.

Thanks for everyone's help.

I read the article. Fascinating. I am also beginning to wonder if the last paragraph applies to my situation:#(

Mary, have you checked your ammonia today? Is he shredding or is he giving off excess mucous?

Excess mucous could be from parasites or it could be from too many chemicals, including ammonia/nitrite.

If you have dosed twice in a row, then I'd give the tank a rest. Maybe there is something residual in there too that is mixing and irritating the fish. Give them just clean water.

Refresh my memory - is there salt in this tank? If so, it could be too much for the plec.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Mar-2005 16:13

I doubt very much that any smell in the tank would come from the AquaPlus, as I said, I use it and my tanks don't smell at all. If you're dosing the water conditioner at any time other than when you're doing water changes, please stop. The chemicals in water conditioner that remove chlorine/chloramine can be fairly dangerous if overdosed, and if you're dosing it to the tank unnecessarily you might have a buildup of chemicals in the tank from it. AquaPlus, and any other water conditioner like it is only meant to be used for water changes and when transporting fish.

The proper dose for AquaPlus if you just have chlorine in your water is 5 mL or one capful per 10 gallons. If you have chloramine in your tap water you need to dose an ADDITIONAL 10 mL or 2 capfuls per 10 US gallons. There is no reason to dose any more than that, the protective action of it is more for stress due to handling and poking around in the tank during maintenance. The bottle states that it uses "Pure Herbal Extracts" which I'm thinking are probably similar to what is found in melafix/pimafix.

So for example, if you have a 50 gallon tank and are doing a 20% water change, you need to replace 10 gallons of water. If you have chlorine and chloramine in your water you need to use 15 mL or 3 capfuls of AquaPlus. There is no need to dose any more than that, and doing so may be harmful. Again, it is only to be used to condition your tap water before adding it to the tank.

If you're looking for something that will speed healing of cuts and wounds from the ich parasite, melafix is the best you can use. It is nearly impossible to overdose accidentally and is not irritating to your fish in any way as long as you use the prescribed dose. It actually seems to have a bit of a soothing sedative effect which I find useful when treating with strong medications. I have used melafix in combination with Ich Guard II for very small (under one inch) fish with no problems.

Ich Guard II alone, when dosed daily at the proper level, should not show any irritating effect. I have never seen any peeling or visible increase in slime coat while using it. Please test your water as Di said, for now I would not dose anything to the tank except melafix and go back to the 30% water changes to pull whatever is irritating those fish from the water.

I am concerned by the fact that you said the tank "stinks." I have never had any noticable smell while using AquaPlus or cycle, and in general a bad smell to the water is not a good sign. What does it smell like? If it smells like sulphur or rotten eggs you need to check your substrate and water column for any anaerobic or stagnant pockets that will provide a breeding ground for bacteria that make hydrogen sulphide (a poison) as a waste product. Do you ever see any bubbles escape from the substrate when you vacuum? How often do you vacuum the substrate and how much current do you have in the tank? Also, do you move the aquarium decorations around to vacuum under them? I don't think I would blame the driftwood either, I really think something else is going on.

Blue-green algae can also smell bad IME, it smells a bit musty and just generally gross. Do you have any algae in the tank?

I went back in this thread and couldn't find a list of tank stock or the size of the tank....could you restate those please? I would also like to stress Di's suggestion to take a bag of tank water to the local fish shop for testing. The numbers I've seen posted in this thread just seem a bit "off" to me somehow and I think it is really a good idea to get that pH reading addressed ASAP. It is a good idea to bring a sample of aged tap water to the LFS when you go to have it tested for pH and KH as well to see if the high pH is occuring because of something in the tank.

I have just a few more questions....what size of filter are you using, what kind of filter media, and when was the last time you cleaned the filter out? Does the filter flow seem slower than it has been in the past? Inadequate filtration or current can lead to stagnation and a yucky smelling tank with sick fish in it.

Sorry for jumping in with a lot of questions, but at this point I think it is likely that your fish are suffering more from environmental issues than anything else. Resistant strains of ich are a bit of a myth (one of those scapegoats used as an explanation for suffering fish) in my opinion. It is much easier to suspect some weird coincidence when in fact the simplest (and often hard to accept) explanation is usually the cause. I'm not doubting that your fish had ich in the first place, but in my experience with the parasite it is usually only seen in fish that are already stressed from something else. Healthy, unstressed fish are usually fairly resistant to disease on their own.

Remember, it isn't the medicine that kills whatever is infecting your fish. Medication is a tool that aids the fish in fighting the infection themselves. If there are other factors making their immune systems weak and stressing them out you can bet they will have a very hard time healing and recovering.

If the tank is going back through a mini-cycle it can have an odor. I haven't had a new tank yet, not smell until the colony was fully established. I think the biocolony, breaking stuff down and converting it is what controls the odors, in part. My goldfish tank stunk so bad for the first 2 weeks. Once I was getting good nitrates (used BioSpira), the odor was completely gone.

Okay, here's the deal. And I appreciate your "jumping in" and helping out

72g bowfront. Current stock is (off the of my head anyway) : 12 Harlequin Rasboras, 3 Diamond Tetras, 10 Panda Corys, 2 Angelfish, 2 Rubber Plecos and 3 clown loaches. A bit overstocked, I am sure.

The tank has stunk since day one. That is why I am suspect of the driftwood. Tank #2 (65g hex) I treat the same way, and it does not stink. Only difference? It does not have driftwood. The driftwood I have is "bayou driftwood." And, yes, it does have blue algae sometimes. (the additional aerating seems to be clearing that though)

Even though it has stunk for a year plus, the tank has thrived. Until this latest bout anyway. I usuallly only use water conditioner upon water changes. Same w/Cycle.

I had an AquaClear 500 powerhead filter. It seemed to just not move the water enough and things were getting stagnant. I replaced it recently w/ Fluval 404 cannister. Tank looks a 1000 times better, but still stinks.

I do 30=40% water change AND gravel vac every two weeks (sometimes every 10 days).

I have lost rubber plecos before in same manner. Just like they "disintegrate." And they stink to high heaven when they are dead and it is way gross. I do not do well w/rubber plecs, for some reason and this one will be my last. My clown pleco, on the other hand, is unaffected by the recent turmoil.


Today I have done nothing w/the water.

HOW LONG TIL THE SPOTS SHOULD FALL OFF IF THE TREATMENT IS EFFECTIVE?
Again, thanks for your help and advises. Sooo much appreciated. Now I know why I flunked chemistry in high school. And this fish "stuff" is just like chemistry revisted

Okay, here's the deal. And I appreciate your "jumping in" and helping out

72g bowfront. Current stock is (off the of my head anyway) : 12 Harlequin Rasboras, 3 Diamond Tetras, 10 Panda Corys, 2 Angelfish, 2 Rubber Plecos and 3 clown loaches. A bit overstocked, I am sure.

The tank has stunk since day one. That is why I am suspect of the driftwood. Tank #2 (65g hex) I treat the same way, and it does not stink. Only difference? It does not have driftwood. The driftwood I have is "bayou driftwood." And, yes, it does have blue algae sometimes. (the additional aerating seems to be clearing that though)

Even though it has stunk for a year plus, the tank has thrived. Until this latest bout anyway. I usuallly only use water conditioner upon water changes. Same w/Cycle.

I had an AquaClear 500 powerhead filter. It seemed to just not move the water enough and things were getting stagnant. I replaced it recently w/ Fluval 404 cannister. Tank looks a 1000 times better, but still stinks.

I do 30=40% water change AND gravel vac every two weeks (sometimes every 10 days).

I have lost rubber plecos before in same manner. Just like they "disintegrate." And they stink to high heaven when they are dead and it is way gross. I do not do well w/rubber plecs, for some reason and this one will be my last. My clown pleco, on the other hand, is unaffected by the recent turmoil.


Today I have done nothing w/the water.

HOW LONG TIL THE SPOTS SHOULD FALL OFF IF THE TREATMENT IS EFFECTIVE?
Again, thanks for your help and advises. Sooo much appreciated. Now I know why I flunked chemistry in high school. And this fish "stuff" is just like chemistry revisted

PS: CoryDi, I have not done a water change since Thursday night. Parameters same tonight as last night. There was a huge overdose of salt about 3 weeks or so ago. None since, and i have done many water changes and scraped the sides of the tank for the salt residuals.

Not using Melafix or PimaFix right now. Haven't for about 10 days. PimaFix seems to turn my tank into "gunk." Is that typical?? Should I now add it?

When should I expect my clowns to drop their spots if the med is effective?

Thanks.

Mary

I can't be sure, Mary. We really need pics to verify that it is ich. It's much too unusual and I'm just more suspect that it is something else.

This was an accidental salting by someone else, right? A tank with scaleless fish shouldn't be exposed to a 0.3% salt solution. Even a 0.1% or less I would add gradually over time, so there's no telling if the shredding is related. I do believe that salt will result in excess slime in some scaleless species. If you are only doing 30% changes every 10-14 days, then much of the salt may still be in there, irritating this plec.

So much has been thrown at these fish that at this point I think we oughta just leave it be for a while. Step up the water changes to every 3-4 days just for two weeks and see where that gets you. Any tank experiencing sickness does better with increased water changes (assuming you have a python to make it easy).

Those fish with spots - we may have to watch. The spots are there with or without meds and they have remained there longer than any timeline for ich. It doesn't make sense for it to be ich.

Do you know anyone at all with a digital camera that can try to get pics. Use a flash and don't get too close or it will blur and we need clear pictures to see the spots. The pictures will need to taken from a slight angle to the glass to avoid the flash ruining the picture with a reflection.

Mary...

Continued confusion.

If you are going to continue using the AquaPlus, only do so during water changes. There is no good reason to dose the tank with it in between water changes. If anything, the amount of AquaPlus you are using may be the reason you are not seeing any improvement with your fish. I don't know how to say it any more plain than that.

On March 4th you added the initial dose of Ick Guard at half strength. On March 5th you added the second dose per instructions. It is reasonable to think that the spots will NOT be gone within two days. Today is only the 7th. The medication has to reach therapeutic levels for it to become effective. I can not say for certain what that level is with Ick Guard because I have never used it. Have some patience. I know it has been a long ordeal but you have to forget the first three weeks of this ordeal because absolutely no benefit was dervied from dosing the tank with Coppersafe because of the AquaPlus. If anything, I would add another half dose of the Ick Guard to get it to the recommended level. If the fish appear to have a problem with the increased dosage then perform a partial water change to dilute the medication. Only when doing this partial water change should you be adding back in any AquaPlus *or* another type of water conditioner to remove the chlorine and chloramine that may be present.

Do not add any more additives of any other kind. None. Continue to check your tank daily for ammonia and nitrite. If you see any detectable levels of either of these then you can dose with the Cycle. Once you are through all of this there is no reason to dose with the Cycle regularly. I remember the days when Cycle was absolutely useless. This New Improved Cycle may have some merit with new tanks or tanks where the bacteria colony is not well established but a well established tank never needs a boost of beneficial bacteria. It happens naturally. Why else would millions of home aquarists have been successfully raising fish for decades with never using it? Make sense?

The tank should never be "stinky". Stinking means the water quality is a problem. The smell has to be coming from something organic. Either decaying food, decaying fish, excessive waste, excessive algae or that driftwood. In another thread that you started over a month ago about a tank that was "stinky" you ruled out the decaying food, fish, waste when asked about these things. As of now, the Melafix and other ingredients that you have dosed this tank with could be causing the smell. I originally suspected the driftwood and mentioned that to you in that other thread. I'd remove the driftwood and construct something else for the Clowns to hide in. For now I would get some new PVC pipe and use that until such a time that you can make a rock formation out of slate or something. Any cozy spot or something a Clown can get under will make them happy.

*ahem*

I will still stand by the Coppersafe as a great medication to battle external parasites under the right circumstances. Also, we can attest to the fact that by using the Poly Filter that it is easilly removed from the water.

If it were me.. I'd dump that bottle of AquaPlus. Hey now Ladies... the world would be a boring place if we all held the same opinions...


Last edited by Tammy at 07-Mar-2005 07:01

I'm not going to disagree, in any way . I support Tammy's well thought out statement.

I'm just wondering if any of these spots on the plec are original spots that have been there for weeks, or are they just new spots that keep showing up because ick is so active in the tank. Mary, have you tried looking at a few key spots that are easy to relocate again and again to see if they are new or old?

Tammy, I support your statements as they are well thought out, as usual, especially the AquaSafe and Driftwood. If that driftwood has bluegreen algae on it, then that will stink. If there are other signs of bluegreen algae, then that will need to be addressed eventually.

I'm going to email Jungle and inquire about the frequency of treatment, given ichs lifecycle. The bottle states that you can repeat a dose in 24 hours if necessary, but that does not seem to comprehend ichs lifecycle and the fact that you can only kill swarmers with any med. Not unless there is something special about this stuff that kills it on the fish. I'd be surprised if any med can do that. I'll report back when Jungle gives me a response in a day or two. They are very good about replying.

Last night: two of three clowns had no spots and pleco looked like he was pulling it back together I know I am not out of the woods yet, but am seeing SOME improvement. Will update later, I am at work now .

Thanks everyone (and thanks for making phone calls and sending emails to the manufacturers. What a help that has been ).

Also, I will try to get pics for you, but if you have clown loaches, you know they don't "sit still" for long.

Their instructions make no sense for a parasite with a lifecycle that can span a week or more, depending on temp. I've asked them for a reasonable redosing, based on the ich lifecycle. Hopefully, they will come through. Being Monday, they may surprise me and get back with me later today. That has happened too. Jungle is one of the most responsive companies I've had the pleasure of dealing with.

I emailed Jungle over the weekend. The just replied. Said to dose every 24 hours til spots are gone then for additional three days after that. Seems kind of harsh, formalin is not delicate. But if that's what they say, I should probably go for it.

Well, formalin is a gas and from what I understand is only in the water a few hours. Did they mention whether water changes should be done between treatments? I'm wondering about the buildup of victoria green, nitromersol and acriflavine that I believe are also in there (see ingredients). Don't hesitate to reply to them with that question.

Two clowns no spots. Can't see the third one, but I did see a bit of her tail and it looks spot free and not edged with white anymore.

Eddie, my Rubber Pleco, has lost spots, but now his sides are bulging. Like I said yesterday, it looks like his body is turning to "mush." What is that from??????

I added another dose of Ick Guard II and some Pima Fix tonight. Pima Fix always seems to muck up the water. Anybody else notice that?

Well, any thoughts on if Eddie is treatable??

Thanks.

With the Ick Guard in now, you really don't need the Pimafix anymore. I should have mentioned that. I didn't know earlier that it had a small amount of acriflavine and some other ingredients which inhibit body fungus. Sorry about that, Patty.

I'm afraid I wouldn't want to add anything else to this tank. We will have to see if "Edie" has it in him to fight what is ailing him, I'm afraid. Not unless Tammy can think of something. The medicine soup can't be helping him and he may also be sick of something entirely different anyway.
[hr width='40%']
Here is my reply from Jungle - similar to yours...

Hello Diane,

Thank you very much for your e-mail. I have seen ick disappear with one
treatment before, but in general, it is best to continue treating a few
more times. My recommendation usually is to treat for another 1-2 days
after you see the last spots disappear.

Jungle(r) Ick Guard II is a soothing conditioner to clear Ick
(Ichthyophthirius), or white spot, on small, weak or scaleless fish
such
as Catfish, members of the Loach family and African imports. Ick is
usually the result of sudden changes in the aquarium temperature or
stress. Left untreated, Ick spreads rapidly and is usually fatal to
fish. Treat every 24 hours until all the spots are gone then treat for
1
to 2 days longer to kill the free-swimming stage of the parasite.

Remove the activated carbon from your filter, but leave the filter
running. Fish need plenty of oxygen during treatments. Be sure to
follow
the directions for measuring.

Thank you for being a Jungle(r) customer. Please feel free to contact
us
again anytime.

Sincerely,

Karin Fairburn
Customer Resource Representative
Jungle Laboratories Corporation

Last edited by Cory_Di at 07-Mar-2005 18:09

Did they mention whether water changes should be done between treatments? I'm wondering about the buildup of victoria green, nitromersol and acriflavine that I believe are also in there (see ingredients).

I have always done water changes while dosing any medication every 48 hours because I think clean water has far greater benefit when treating an illness than any medication. When I have used Ich Guard II in the past I have done as much as 50% water change every 48 hours and treatment was still successful. I would not hesitate to step up your cleaning regimen as Di has suggested. 30% every 3 days would be great if you choose to continue dosing the Ich Guard II. Usually spots are gone in about a week, the longest I have had to dose that was 2 weeks but that was probably just because I was doing such drastic water changes.

If you are going to continue with the Ich Guard II, it will need to be dosed every day according to the instructions. It sounds harsh but it is really one of the least irritating ich medications out there. I usually combine it with melafix because I have found that the fish seem more "comfortable" with the addition of it, I have a feeling that is just because of the sedative effect that has been reported by a lot of melafix users. Any time I have used it, the fish stopped flashing after just a few days, maybe about 3 days if my memory is accurate, with NO spots at all after about 7-10 days at most. It really depends on what temperature you're treating the fish at, and any other factors at play.

Tammy, I understand the reccomendation of coppersafe, and yes I think it is a great med. I used to use copper based treatments and they worked very well, but that was a long time ago and ever since I tried the Malachite Green/Formalin/Acriflavine combination I've been a fan. I'll probably never go back to copper just because it seems to stress the fish more than meds like Rid Ich + and Ich Guard II, is deadly to inverts, cannot be pulled with simple activated carbon (I'm not sure if polyfilters are available here, I have never seen them in stores but maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough ), also there are very very few water conditioners on the market any more that don't neutralize heavy metals. Everyone has their own opinions and preferences in this hobby.

As far as AquaPlus goes, I took a whiff of mine in the bottle and it really just has a very faint smell that you don't notice until you get really close to it. I can't imagine it would make the whole tank smell bad. I wouldn't write it off either, honestly it is the same as most other water conditioners out there... neutralizes chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, and has some "herbal" additive to reduce stress. I think the problem in this case was more likely overdosing and misuse of the product than anything else. I have been using AquaPlus (mostly because it's cheap )for a few years now with no problems at all.

The presence of BGA would have a definite smell. I think BGA smells disgusting and have even got to the point where I can smell the stuff before I see it. It smells really musty and gross, I actually remember visiting Disney World last year and could suddenly smell BGA in the air. I looked down and I was walking on a bridge over an infested stream. I hate BGA, it's a pain to get rid of and the smell always makes me want to be sick!

If the driftwood is rotting and making the tank smell I would definitely remove it. A bad smell isn't good because the chemicals that your nose is picking up as "bad" smell are gross and offensive for a reason. Most of them are toxic and we're wired to recognize them as offensive or disgusting as defence mechanisms to get us away from them. As Di pointed out, cycling tanks always have the definite ammonia/nitrite smell, other examples are hydrogen sulphide (which forms sulfuric acid when combined with water, the cause of pH decline in "old tank syndrome" that is a product of anaerobic bacteria, BGA is toxic to humans as well. There is a chemical in BGA that is an irritant and can cause a serious nasty rash if you're ever swimming in it, not something I would suggest. Anything that smells bad is not something you want your fish swimming in.

Anyway, I second the motion to remove that driftwood. Boil it in vinegar or even throw it out and get a new piece. be very careful when you remove it because there may be pockets of anaerobic bacteria lurking under it and it can be harmful to your fish if it is suddenly released into the water. Keep your siphon ready as you remove it, poke the gravel vac under it and move it slowly so any accumulation of toxic chemicals can be guided into the gravel vac.

You mentioned that the tank has a single Fluval 404 on it. If you have a spray bar you probably don't have a lot of current on that tank. I would recommend additional air pumps to get that water really moving until the smell is gone. You may also want to place a smallish powerhead on the bottom of the tank permanently to keep the water moving and aerated. All of the fish you mentioned will be fine with a bit of extra current on the tank, and I personally like to keep the water column moving as much as possible. BGA and other algae has a harder time getting a grip on anything if you have a lot of current in the tank, and there are mamy other benefits to as much current as your fish can handle. If you still have that AC 500 you may even want to put it back on the tank, I am a big fan of overfiltration.

Plecos also poop a lot, check the tank for any "piles" that might be lurking behind or under your plecs' favourite hiding places.

I'm just happy the fish are recovering.

I was starting to itch myself..

The fish are doing very very well. Two clowns are spot-free, the largest clown has one spot from what I could see (those clowns move so fast and hide). Some flashing still going on, but nothing like before. The last two nights the clowns have had voracious appetites, eating like little clown pigs!! They hadn't eaten, in my presence anyway, for about 2-3 weeks.

Pleco is still "iffy." He is losing spots but stays in one place and appears to be breathing hard. His sides are bulging.

I am going to do a water change tonight. Will continue with Ick Guard II for a few more days.

Thanks to Miss Moppet for the info on the driftwood. I would have never known something so pretty could be so vile. But I think that is what the smell is coming from. The tank has smelled weird (algaeish)for almost a year.

And, yes, I was beginning to itch too!

Thanks everybody

I don't know that I would redose something like Ich Guard 2 without a partial water change first. Stuff accumulates. The gas dissipates, but the other stuff is still in there.

I am doing a water change tonight. Clowns look just great. Their tails were fully restored after just two days of treatment, believe it or not.

Eddie, the Rubber Pleco, still not looking too hot. Has some spots still, but worse, his sides are bulging. He is pretty much staying in one spot.

What scares me is this: Can ich live inside a fish? Like major infestation?? If Eddie dies and disintegrates will I risk ich going all over the tank again? I am worried that the "bulging" is a whole big bunch of ich.

Well, I'm wondering if something has happened to him internally. Any parasite - internal or external - can cause systemic infections which are very difficult to cure. If you see any redness - streaks, spots or otherwise, on the belly, at the vent, the base of any fins, especially the pec fins, then some condition, likely parasites, caused a systemic condition.

However, if he is bulging more towards the back half, then I would suspect an issue with the kidneys. They would be swollen. There are bacterias that invade the kidneys as well as parasites. Usually, it is not quite symmetrical - one side may bulge slightly more than another.

I'm afraid if he has not moved in some time, he will likely expire. He may have been too sensitive to the meds, as well - afterall, he and the others have been through alot. But, your other fish did ok, so he just may be more sensitive.

He is bulging near the middle and toward the front. He hasn't moved too much. He has a few spots left too. I am thinking they are not ich. I planned on stopping ick treatment after tonight since the loaches are looking great for about three days now. I don't know what to do.

At this point I doubt that those spots you're seeing on the plec are ich. If you feel comfortable stopping the Ich Guard 2 then it should be ok. Keep it handy in case you see any of the ich symptoms return. I am with Di on the plec's condition, he does not sound good at all and at this point I think you may lose him. You never know though, plecs are known to be tanks and recover when things look really bad. Do you have anything you could use to separate him? Those white spots could very well be columnaris or fungus, which has a habit of rearing its ugly head in a bad ich outbreak. I have also seen bulging in bad bacterial infections so IMO there is a good chance he has picked up some kind of secondary infection. As long as it is confined to just the plec, I would get him out of there ASAP to reduce the risk of it spreading to the others.

If you don't have a specific QT tank, a rubbermaid bin with a heater, air pump and sponge filter will do. Use as much tank water in the quarantine tank as you can to save stressing him out by moving him to different conditions. If you have spare fake plants around, put those in there with his favourite cave to make him feel more at home. The QT tank should be dimly lit and only disturbed for feeding and maintenance.

Treat him with nothing but clean water and a lot of aeration for a few days, I would probably add some melafix/pimafix because they are so gentle. If he worsens or doesn't improve at all you may need to treat with something else, probably antibiotics/antifungus. Test the QT tank often, perform frequent water changes of about 20% and remove any visible waste or leftover food from the bottom of the tank as soon as you see it, because any ammonia or nitrite in his condition could easily be fatal. Feed him sparingly if he will eat at all, because bloating means something is definitely not right internally, and a big feast could cause some serious trouble.

You may also want to dose him with some epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to see if it will help relieve the bloat. Normal dose is 1/8 tsp per 5 gallons of tank water but for sensitive fish it is better to start with half that, see how he's taking it, and increase the dose if there are no signs of additional stress. Try 1/8 tsp per 10 gallons first. The epsom salt needs to be predissolved in some tank water before you add it to the tank, just like aquarium salt is, and only add more when you remove water from the tank. Because epsom salt is dosed in such tiny amounts, I like to mix a stock bottle up for easy measuring. Take 1/8 tsp and mix with 10 tablespoons of distilled or dechlorinated water in a bottle or jar. If you do it that way, it is much harder to overdose and easier to measure since each tablespoon of the stock bottle solution will treat 1 gallon of water. If he takes that well, double the amount you're adding. When you do water changes, estimate the amount of water taken from the tank and add the correct amount of epsom salt to the new water before you put it back.

Just a thought: The bloating may also be a reaction to the rapid change in salinity of the tank water, especially in a plec because they are quite sensitive to salt. We can only hope it's something that simple. If the change in salinity has made his osmoregulatory process get out of whack, he could be having trouble ridding his body of excess fluid, causing him to bloat. If that is the case, the epsom salt should make a difference.

Mary...

Check out the picture of the Rubbernose/Bulldog Pleco in the profiles here and tell us if the shape of your fish looks like that one.

I can see where someone who has gone through what you just have may be a bit paranoid when it comes to the fish at this point. The natural shape of a Rubber Pleco would tend someone to believe they are bulging a bit.

Have the texture (or appearance) of the spots on the Pleco changed at all leading you to believe that this may be something else?

This type of Pleco isn't necessarilly overly sensitive to salt. He may not have liked the level of salt in the tank when your son added it but they can tolerate salt just fine at regular levels. My regular level is 1 tablespoon to 10 gallons of tank water.

I checked out the picture and my fish definitely has protrusion. It's between the two sets of fins. Eddie just sits near one area and looks almost like he is "rocking" (breathing hard, probably). I have not seen him eat lately.

His spots are gone now. But he still doesn't look good. I have a ten gallon quarantine tank. I tried to catch him before, when all this ick business was going on, but he and the clown loaches were way too fast and too smart for me. Maybe now that he is sick he won't be able to get away so easily.

Do you think it would be even more stressful for him if I go chasing him around the tank and move him to another one? I know, it's a last resort and I should probably do it.

I'll report back. The other fish are looking wonderful.

Another nice little surprise: yet another baby panda cory He's been hiding!

PS: Is this green background obnoxious on the eyes or WHAT???

I think I am going to change it!

Here is a picture of Eddie. It is somewhat blurred, but I think you can see how swollen and bloated he looks. He is now in quarantine. 80 degree water temp, aeration, Pima Fix and MelaFix.

rasboramary attached this image:

Let's try again:



rasboramary attached this image:

One last try:



rasboramary attached this image:

i can't see your pics?

is it possible he is constipated? sorry i know i haven't seen the pic but i just wondered simplest first?

if the fish knew how much effort all the people in this post where putting in to getting them better i am sure they would be grateful.

"off to check out her pleco - her fave fish!"

good luck
GFG

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 13-Mar-2005 14:28

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Mary, make sure your image is a .jpg file type, and that it is not too large. You may need to scale it down a bit. I open mine into the edit program and stretch it down by 50% in both directions.

It is definitely jpeg., but perhaps too big. I will try to send when I get home from work tonight Thanks!

Pleco is moving around a little this a.m. Hopefully that is a good sign. When I moved him to quarantine tank, he didn't even fight me, was kind of rigid. He just rocks like he is breathing hard.

I am dosing PimaFix and MelaFix.

If he has no outward signs of infection, I would skip the Pimafix and Melafix and just give him the cleanest water you could, with frequent water changes of 30% same temp (at least 2-3 times weekly) Just simple, clean water can do wonders, especially after everything that poor things has been exposed to.

I think I have the picture scaled down to proper size now. He doesn't appear to be eating, but he must be, or he wouldn't have lived this long. If he is constipated, I have heard mashed peas work wonders. But what kind of peas to use and how to prepare them?

Here is the pic.



rasboramary attached this image:

I reduced the pic to 100kb. Guess it has to be smaller than that? I thought 100 was max. Oh well.

Go just under 100kb.

Eddie is still not doing well. I did notice a long poo-poo the other day, so perhaps constipation IS the problem. He seems less swollen. But he has only moved about an inch or two from where he was originally placed in the quarantine tank a week ago. Poor little fella!!

What are you feeding him?

How's the water quality in that tank (actual numbers)? What is the pH in that quarantine tank? Is it the same as the main tank?

Last edited by Cory_Di at 19-Mar-2005 09:46