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I can't be sure, Mary. We really need pics to verify that it is ich. It's much too unusual and I'm just more suspect that it is something else.

This was an accidental salting by someone else, right? A tank with scaleless fish shouldn't be exposed to a 0.3% salt solution. Even a 0.1% or less I would add gradually over time, so there's no telling if the shredding is related. I do believe that salt will result in excess slime in some scaleless species. If you are only doing 30% changes every 10-14 days, then much of the salt may still be in there, irritating this plec.

So much has been thrown at these fish that at this point I think we oughta just leave it be for a while. Step up the water changes to every 3-4 days just for two weeks and see where that gets you. Any tank experiencing sickness does better with increased water changes (assuming you have a python to make it easy).

Those fish with spots - we may have to watch. The spots are there with or without meds and they have remained there longer than any timeline for ich. It doesn't make sense for it to be ich.

Do you know anyone at all with a digital camera that can try to get pics. Use a flash and don't get too close or it will blur and we need clear pictures to see the spots. The pictures will need to taken from a slight angle to the glass to avoid the flash ruining the picture with a reflection.

Mary...

Continued confusion.

If you are going to continue using the AquaPlus, only do so during water changes. There is no good reason to dose the tank with it in between water changes. If anything, the amount of AquaPlus you are using may be the reason you are not seeing any improvement with your fish. I don't know how to say it any more plain than that.

On March 4th you added the initial dose of Ick Guard at half strength. On March 5th you added the second dose per instructions. It is reasonable to think that the spots will NOT be gone within two days. Today is only the 7th. The medication has to reach therapeutic levels for it to become effective. I can not say for certain what that level is with Ick Guard because I have never used it. Have some patience. I know it has been a long ordeal but you have to forget the first three weeks of this ordeal because absolutely no benefit was dervied from dosing the tank with Coppersafe because of the AquaPlus. If anything, I would add another half dose of the Ick Guard to get it to the recommended level. If the fish appear to have a problem with the increased dosage then perform a partial water change to dilute the medication. Only when doing this partial water change should you be adding back in any AquaPlus *or* another type of water conditioner to remove the chlorine and chloramine that may be present.

Do not add any more additives of any other kind. None. Continue to check your tank daily for ammonia and nitrite. If you see any detectable levels of either of these then you can dose with the Cycle. Once you are through all of this there is no reason to dose with the Cycle regularly. I remember the days when Cycle was absolutely useless. This New Improved Cycle may have some merit with new tanks or tanks where the bacteria colony is not well established but a well established tank never needs a boost of beneficial bacteria. It happens naturally. Why else would millions of home aquarists have been successfully raising fish for decades with never using it? Make sense?

The tank should never be "stinky". Stinking means the water quality is a problem. The smell has to be coming from something organic. Either decaying food, decaying fish, excessive waste, excessive algae or that driftwood. In another thread that you started over a month ago about a tank that was "stinky" you ruled out the decaying food, fish, waste when asked about these things. As of now, the Melafix and other ingredients that you have dosed this tank with could be causing the smell. I originally suspected the driftwood and mentioned that to you in that other thread. I'd remove the driftwood and construct something else for the Clowns to hide in. For now I would get some new PVC pipe and use that until such a time that you can make a rock formation out of slate or something. Any cozy spot or something a Clown can get under will make them happy.

*ahem*

I will still stand by the Coppersafe as a great medication to battle external parasites under the right circumstances. Also, we can attest to the fact that by using the Poly Filter that it is easilly removed from the water.

If it were me.. I'd dump that bottle of AquaPlus. Hey now Ladies... the world would be a boring place if we all held the same opinions...


Last edited by Tammy at 07-Mar-2005 07:01

I'm not going to disagree, in any way . I support Tammy's well thought out statement.

I'm just wondering if any of these spots on the plec are original spots that have been there for weeks, or are they just new spots that keep showing up because ick is so active in the tank. Mary, have you tried looking at a few key spots that are easy to relocate again and again to see if they are new or old?

Tammy, I support your statements as they are well thought out, as usual, especially the AquaSafe and Driftwood. If that driftwood has bluegreen algae on it, then that will stink. If there are other signs of bluegreen algae, then that will need to be addressed eventually.

I'm going to email Jungle and inquire about the frequency of treatment, given ichs lifecycle. The bottle states that you can repeat a dose in 24 hours if necessary, but that does not seem to comprehend ichs lifecycle and the fact that you can only kill swarmers with any med. Not unless there is something special about this stuff that kills it on the fish. I'd be surprised if any med can do that. I'll report back when Jungle gives me a response in a day or two. They are very good about replying.

Last night: two of three clowns had no spots and pleco looked like he was pulling it back together I know I am not out of the woods yet, but am seeing SOME improvement. Will update later, I am at work now .

Thanks everyone (and thanks for making phone calls and sending emails to the manufacturers. What a help that has been ).

Also, I will try to get pics for you, but if you have clown loaches, you know they don't "sit still" for long.

Their instructions make no sense for a parasite with a lifecycle that can span a week or more, depending on temp. I've asked them for a reasonable redosing, based on the ich lifecycle. Hopefully, they will come through. Being Monday, they may surprise me and get back with me later today. That has happened too. Jungle is one of the most responsive companies I've had the pleasure of dealing with.

I emailed Jungle over the weekend. The just replied. Said to dose every 24 hours til spots are gone then for additional three days after that. Seems kind of harsh, formalin is not delicate. But if that's what they say, I should probably go for it.

Well, formalin is a gas and from what I understand is only in the water a few hours. Did they mention whether water changes should be done between treatments? I'm wondering about the buildup of victoria green, nitromersol and acriflavine that I believe are also in there (see ingredients). Don't hesitate to reply to them with that question.

Two clowns no spots. Can't see the third one, but I did see a bit of her tail and it looks spot free and not edged with white anymore.

Eddie, my Rubber Pleco, has lost spots, but now his sides are bulging. Like I said yesterday, it looks like his body is turning to "mush." What is that from??????

I added another dose of Ick Guard II and some Pima Fix tonight. Pima Fix always seems to muck up the water. Anybody else notice that?

Well, any thoughts on if Eddie is treatable??

Thanks.

With the Ick Guard in now, you really don't need the Pimafix anymore. I should have mentioned that. I didn't know earlier that it had a small amount of acriflavine and some other ingredients which inhibit body fungus. Sorry about that, Patty.

I'm afraid I wouldn't want to add anything else to this tank. We will have to see if "Edie" has it in him to fight what is ailing him, I'm afraid. Not unless Tammy can think of something. The medicine soup can't be helping him and he may also be sick of something entirely different anyway.
[hr width='40%']
Here is my reply from Jungle - similar to yours...

Hello Diane,

Thank you very much for your e-mail. I have seen ick disappear with one
treatment before, but in general, it is best to continue treating a few
more times. My recommendation usually is to treat for another 1-2 days
after you see the last spots disappear.

Jungle(r) Ick Guard II is a soothing conditioner to clear Ick
(Ichthyophthirius), or white spot, on small, weak or scaleless fish
such
as Catfish, members of the Loach family and African imports. Ick is
usually the result of sudden changes in the aquarium temperature or
stress. Left untreated, Ick spreads rapidly and is usually fatal to
fish. Treat every 24 hours until all the spots are gone then treat for
1
to 2 days longer to kill the free-swimming stage of the parasite.

Remove the activated carbon from your filter, but leave the filter
running. Fish need plenty of oxygen during treatments. Be sure to
follow
the directions for measuring.

Thank you for being a Jungle(r) customer. Please feel free to contact
us
again anytime.

Sincerely,

Karin Fairburn
Customer Resource Representative
Jungle Laboratories Corporation

Last edited by Cory_Di at 07-Mar-2005 18:09

Did they mention whether water changes should be done between treatments? I'm wondering about the buildup of victoria green, nitromersol and acriflavine that I believe are also in there (see ingredients).

I have always done water changes while dosing any medication every 48 hours because I think clean water has far greater benefit when treating an illness than any medication. When I have used Ich Guard II in the past I have done as much as 50% water change every 48 hours and treatment was still successful. I would not hesitate to step up your cleaning regimen as Di has suggested. 30% every 3 days would be great if you choose to continue dosing the Ich Guard II. Usually spots are gone in about a week, the longest I have had to dose that was 2 weeks but that was probably just because I was doing such drastic water changes.

If you are going to continue with the Ich Guard II, it will need to be dosed every day according to the instructions. It sounds harsh but it is really one of the least irritating ich medications out there. I usually combine it with melafix because I have found that the fish seem more "comfortable" with the addition of it, I have a feeling that is just because of the sedative effect that has been reported by a lot of melafix users. Any time I have used it, the fish stopped flashing after just a few days, maybe about 3 days if my memory is accurate, with NO spots at all after about 7-10 days at most. It really depends on what temperature you're treating the fish at, and any other factors at play.

Tammy, I understand the reccomendation of coppersafe, and yes I think it is a great med. I used to use copper based treatments and they worked very well, but that was a long time ago and ever since I tried the Malachite Green/Formalin/Acriflavine combination I've been a fan. I'll probably never go back to copper just because it seems to stress the fish more than meds like Rid Ich + and Ich Guard II, is deadly to inverts, cannot be pulled with simple activated carbon (I'm not sure if polyfilters are available here, I have never seen them in stores but maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough ), also there are very very few water conditioners on the market any more that don't neutralize heavy metals. Everyone has their own opinions and preferences in this hobby.

As far as AquaPlus goes, I took a whiff of mine in the bottle and it really just has a very faint smell that you don't notice until you get really close to it. I can't imagine it would make the whole tank smell bad. I wouldn't write it off either, honestly it is the same as most other water conditioners out there... neutralizes chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, and has some "herbal" additive to reduce stress. I think the problem in this case was more likely overdosing and misuse of the product than anything else. I have been using AquaPlus (mostly because it's cheap )for a few years now with no problems at all.

The presence of BGA would have a definite smell. I think BGA smells disgusting and have even got to the point where I can smell the stuff before I see it. It smells really musty and gross, I actually remember visiting Disney World last year and could suddenly smell BGA in the air. I looked down and I was walking on a bridge over an infested stream. I hate BGA, it's a pain to get rid of and the smell always makes me want to be sick!

If the driftwood is rotting and making the tank smell I would definitely remove it. A bad smell isn't good because the chemicals that your nose is picking up as "bad" smell are gross and offensive for a reason. Most of them are toxic and we're wired to recognize them as offensive or disgusting as defence mechanisms to get us away from them. As Di pointed out, cycling tanks always have the definite ammonia/nitrite smell, other examples are hydrogen sulphide (which forms sulfuric acid when combined with water, the cause of pH decline in "old tank syndrome" that is a product of anaerobic bacteria, BGA is toxic to humans as well. There is a chemical in BGA that is an irritant and can cause a serious nasty rash if you're ever swimming in it, not something I would suggest. Anything that smells bad is not something you want your fish swimming in.

Anyway, I second the motion to remove that driftwood. Boil it in vinegar or even throw it out and get a new piece. be very careful when you remove it because there may be pockets of anaerobic bacteria lurking under it and it can be harmful to your fish if it is suddenly released into the water. Keep your siphon ready as you remove it, poke the gravel vac under it and move it slowly so any accumulation of toxic chemicals can be guided into the gravel vac.

You mentioned that the tank has a single Fluval 404 on it. If you have a spray bar you probably don't have a lot of current on that tank. I would recommend additional air pumps to get that water really moving until the smell is gone. You may also want to place a smallish powerhead on the bottom of the tank permanently to keep the water moving and aerated. All of the fish you mentioned will be fine with a bit of extra current on the tank, and I personally like to keep the water column moving as much as possible. BGA and other algae has a harder time getting a grip on anything if you have a lot of current in the tank, and there are mamy other benefits to as much current as your fish can handle. If you still have that AC 500 you may even want to put it back on the tank, I am a big fan of overfiltration.

Plecos also poop a lot, check the tank for any "piles" that might be lurking behind or under your plecs' favourite hiding places.

I'm just happy the fish are recovering.

I was starting to itch myself..

The fish are doing very very well. Two clowns are spot-free, the largest clown has one spot from what I could see (those clowns move so fast and hide). Some flashing still going on, but nothing like before. The last two nights the clowns have had voracious appetites, eating like little clown pigs!! They hadn't eaten, in my presence anyway, for about 2-3 weeks.

Pleco is still "iffy." He is losing spots but stays in one place and appears to be breathing hard. His sides are bulging.

I am going to do a water change tonight. Will continue with Ick Guard II for a few more days.

Thanks to Miss Moppet for the info on the driftwood. I would have never known something so pretty could be so vile. But I think that is what the smell is coming from. The tank has smelled weird (algaeish)for almost a year.

And, yes, I was beginning to itch too!

Thanks everybody

I don't know that I would redose something like Ich Guard 2 without a partial water change first. Stuff accumulates. The gas dissipates, but the other stuff is still in there.

I am doing a water change tonight. Clowns look just great. Their tails were fully restored after just two days of treatment, believe it or not.

Eddie, the Rubber Pleco, still not looking too hot. Has some spots still, but worse, his sides are bulging. He is pretty much staying in one spot.

What scares me is this: Can ich live inside a fish? Like major infestation?? If Eddie dies and disintegrates will I risk ich going all over the tank again? I am worried that the "bulging" is a whole big bunch of ich.

Well, I'm wondering if something has happened to him internally. Any parasite - internal or external - can cause systemic infections which are very difficult to cure. If you see any redness - streaks, spots or otherwise, on the belly, at the vent, the base of any fins, especially the pec fins, then some condition, likely parasites, caused a systemic condition.

However, if he is bulging more towards the back half, then I would suspect an issue with the kidneys. They would be swollen. There are bacterias that invade the kidneys as well as parasites. Usually, it is not quite symmetrical - one side may bulge slightly more than another.

I'm afraid if he has not moved in some time, he will likely expire. He may have been too sensitive to the meds, as well - afterall, he and the others have been through alot. But, your other fish did ok, so he just may be more sensitive.

He is bulging near the middle and toward the front. He hasn't moved too much. He has a few spots left too. I am thinking they are not ich. I planned on stopping ick treatment after tonight since the loaches are looking great for about three days now. I don't know what to do.

At this point I doubt that those spots you're seeing on the plec are ich. If you feel comfortable stopping the Ich Guard 2 then it should be ok. Keep it handy in case you see any of the ich symptoms return. I am with Di on the plec's condition, he does not sound good at all and at this point I think you may lose him. You never know though, plecs are known to be tanks and recover when things look really bad. Do you have anything you could use to separate him? Those white spots could very well be columnaris or fungus, which has a habit of rearing its ugly head in a bad ich outbreak. I have also seen bulging in bad bacterial infections so IMO there is a good chance he has picked up some kind of secondary infection. As long as it is confined to just the plec, I would get him out of there ASAP to reduce the risk of it spreading to the others.

If you don't have a specific QT tank, a rubbermaid bin with a heater, air pump and sponge filter will do. Use as much tank water in the quarantine tank as you can to save stressing him out by moving him to different conditions. If you have spare fake plants around, put those in there with his favourite cave to make him feel more at home. The QT tank should be dimly lit and only disturbed for feeding and maintenance.

Treat him with nothing but clean water and a lot of aeration for a few days, I would probably add some melafix/pimafix because they are so gentle. If he worsens or doesn't improve at all you may need to treat with something else, probably antibiotics/antifungus. Test the QT tank often, perform frequent water changes of about 20% and remove any visible waste or leftover food from the bottom of the tank as soon as you see it, because any ammonia or nitrite in his condition could easily be fatal. Feed him sparingly if he will eat at all, because bloating means something is definitely not right internally, and a big feast could cause some serious trouble.

You may also want to dose him with some epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to see if it will help relieve the bloat. Normal dose is 1/8 tsp per 5 gallons of tank water but for sensitive fish it is better to start with half that, see how he's taking it, and increase the dose if there are no signs of additional stress. Try 1/8 tsp per 10 gallons first. The epsom salt needs to be predissolved in some tank water before you add it to the tank, just like aquarium salt is, and only add more when you remove water from the tank. Because epsom salt is dosed in such tiny amounts, I like to mix a stock bottle up for easy measuring. Take 1/8 tsp and mix with 10 tablespoons of distilled or dechlorinated water in a bottle or jar. If you do it that way, it is much harder to overdose and easier to measure since each tablespoon of the stock bottle solution will treat 1 gallon of water. If he takes that well, double the amount you're adding. When you do water changes, estimate the amount of water taken from the tank and add the correct amount of epsom salt to the new water before you put it back.

Just a thought: The bloating may also be a reaction to the rapid change in salinity of the tank water, especially in a plec because they are quite sensitive to salt. We can only hope it's something that simple. If the change in salinity has made his osmoregulatory process get out of whack, he could be having trouble ridding his body of excess fluid, causing him to bloat. If that is the case, the epsom salt should make a difference.

Mary...

Check out the picture of the Rubbernose/Bulldog Pleco in the profiles here and tell us if the shape of your fish looks like that one.

I can see where someone who has gone through what you just have may be a bit paranoid when it comes to the fish at this point. The natural shape of a Rubber Pleco would tend someone to believe they are bulging a bit.

Have the texture (or appearance) of the spots on the Pleco changed at all leading you to believe that this may be something else?

This type of Pleco isn't necessarilly overly sensitive to salt. He may not have liked the level of salt in the tank when your son added it but they can tolerate salt just fine at regular levels. My regular level is 1 tablespoon to 10 gallons of tank water.

I checked out the picture and my fish definitely has protrusion. It's between the two sets of fins. Eddie just sits near one area and looks almost like he is "rocking" (breathing hard, probably). I have not seen him eat lately.

His spots are gone now. But he still doesn't look good. I have a ten gallon quarantine tank. I tried to catch him before, when all this ick business was going on, but he and the clown loaches were way too fast and too smart for me. Maybe now that he is sick he won't be able to get away so easily.

Do you think it would be even more stressful for him if I go chasing him around the tank and move him to another one? I know, it's a last resort and I should probably do it.

I'll report back. The other fish are looking wonderful.

Another nice little surprise: yet another baby panda cory He's been hiding!

PS: Is this green background obnoxious on the eyes or WHAT???

I think I am going to change it!

Here is a picture of Eddie. It is somewhat blurred, but I think you can see how swollen and bloated he looks. He is now in quarantine. 80 degree water temp, aeration, Pima Fix and MelaFix.

rasboramary attached this image:

Let's try again:



rasboramary attached this image:

One last try:



rasboramary attached this image:

i can't see your pics?

is it possible he is constipated? sorry i know i haven't seen the pic but i just wondered simplest first?

if the fish knew how much effort all the people in this post where putting in to getting them better i am sure they would be grateful.

"off to check out her pleco - her fave fish!"

good luck
GFG

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 13-Mar-2005 14:28

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Mary, make sure your image is a .jpg file type, and that it is not too large. You may need to scale it down a bit. I open mine into the edit program and stretch it down by 50% in both directions.

It is definitely jpeg., but perhaps too big. I will try to send when I get home from work tonight Thanks!

Pleco is moving around a little this a.m. Hopefully that is a good sign. When I moved him to quarantine tank, he didn't even fight me, was kind of rigid. He just rocks like he is breathing hard.

I am dosing PimaFix and MelaFix.

If he has no outward signs of infection, I would skip the Pimafix and Melafix and just give him the cleanest water you could, with frequent water changes of 30% same temp (at least 2-3 times weekly) Just simple, clean water can do wonders, especially after everything that poor things has been exposed to.

I think I have the picture scaled down to proper size now. He doesn't appear to be eating, but he must be, or he wouldn't have lived this long. If he is constipated, I have heard mashed peas work wonders. But what kind of peas to use and how to prepare them?

Here is the pic.



rasboramary attached this image:

I reduced the pic to 100kb. Guess it has to be smaller than that? I thought 100 was max. Oh well.

Go just under 100kb.

Eddie is still not doing well. I did notice a long poo-poo the other day, so perhaps constipation IS the problem. He seems less swollen. But he has only moved about an inch or two from where he was originally placed in the quarantine tank a week ago. Poor little fella!!

What are you feeding him?

How's the water quality in that tank (actual numbers)? What is the pH in that quarantine tank? Is it the same as the main tank?

Last edited by Cory_Di at 19-Mar-2005 09:46