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If you manage to get rid of the ich, call the fish store and ask if they will take some back. Although, they do await a worst fate there don't they .

You don't have to loose more, but it will be much more work. Once the tank is cycled, it's a matter of keeping nitrates low enough to not cause problems.

Your best friends right now are salt and something like Prime or Amquel Plus, in addition to the bacterial starter. Now you will likely get what is called a false-positive reading when using Prime or Amquel Plus. This means that there will be an ammonia reading after using it and it could be high, but it won't be as harmful of an ammonia. That reading will likely stay high for 10 days as a false-positive, then come crashing down. All the while, the fish will look like all is ok. The salt will inhibit nitrite uptake into the bloodstream so that shouldn't be a problem.

Feed very, very sparingly. In fact, I'd feed once every other day. They will beg you for food, but it will cut down on waste. Make it a very small meal.

Do partial water changes without cleaning the gravel or filter. However, goldies poop alot (more ammonia). So, do a "hover" vac. Just hover the gravel vac over the gravel enough to pick up the poops. Do it every other day and replace some of the water. You can replace 30% of that water and not really alter the cycle that much.

Think positive and trust me, you are not the only one who is finding out that goldfish do not come in different sizes . There are no "small" goldfish or "angel fish". They are babies. 2 inchers are probably 8 months old or so.

Hang in there, Pop - Think of that compassionate care you're teaching your son.

How old is he?

Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Feb-2005 19:06

Thanks again for the info Cory_Di! You've been a great help and I really appreciate it!

The direction you have outlined is where I was thinking of going - fishless to finish up the cycle. The ammonia is still up there, or at least it was yesterday, and I'm watching it to catch it when it starts coming down. I'm also monitoring Nitrites/Nitrates.

After I've been able to establish a somewhat stable cyle, I was planning on adding 4 White Clouds, after seeing your pictures, and something to help clean the tank such as Cories and Otos.

I'll post again in another week or so as I make progress.

Thanks again!

Heat speeds up the bacteria and at that temp, I would think you would lose some without a constant ammonia source. You could always add a drop of ordinary household ammonia to the tank daily. However, make sure there are no detergents, dyes, perfumes, etc. added. Also stay away from extra strength. Just get the plainest bottle of household ammonia you can find. You could use food too, but that puts bad bacteria into the water column.

Letting the tank run for 7 days at 90F, then letting it cool to the temp your fish are at in the lfs tanks (another day or so), should be ample time to kill the ich. The 0.6% salt solution will kill any costia or other parasites, some bacteria and, also adversely affect the ich.

Since you've got biospira, I'd say that you would do fine to add something like 4 white clouds or danios when the process is over. Verify ammonia and nitrites are zero and nitrates are a good 10ppm. The goldfish probably died before the cycle was over with. What you don't want to do is put any fish at all into a tank with some ammonia/nitrite. I'd finish it off with pure ammonia if that's the case and dump in another bag of biospira for added measure when the fish come home. . I'd only add the drop of ammonia daily for the first few days then back off. I wouldn't want to add it too close to when the fish go in.

Actually, here is some good data on "good bacteria" in the tank. If you scroll down, you'll see what effects temp and pH, among other things, has on its growth rate. At 90 it can definitely still function and I would feed it.



Last edited by Cory_Di at 24-Feb-2005 13:09

The tank is empty now Cory_Di. The last goldfish succumbed last night. I have now cranked the temp up to 90 as that is as high as the heater goes. I've added 2 Tbsp per gallon of salt. I'm planning on running like this for the next 7 days. Will this have any detrimental effect on the bacterial cycle?

Those White Clouds of yours are beautiful. They look quite happy.

Here's a female, but pic is a little off color. Note the whiteness of the dorsal-fin tip. Compare to the creamy/yellow color of the male. I also notice that the yellow intensifies at different times of the year. If you study a tankfull close enough, it will get easier to see spot the difference. I learned in minutes after an lfs store owner showed me. Hopefully, yours is as knowledgeable.

BTW - congrats on the biospira. Its the best. I would still limit it to about 1/4 max stock and go with no more than 4 white clouds to start (1 male/3 females). If males get frisky, the females could get exhausted if there are more males.

Here is on more set of pics. If you click on the thumbnails, you'll see that one includes the flare-pose males make at each other. It is so cool to watch. Hit the "More Photos" near the picture in the corner if the 5 thumbnails don't show up.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/photos/gallery.asp?id=whitecloud_profile

Cory_Di attached this image:



Last edited by Cory_Di at 22-Feb-2005 13:34[/font]

In an ammonia/nitrite crisis, give the fish some relief with a good 50% water change. Make sure the salt is in there. As long as it is the same temp, it will be fine. Fish can recover in time once it is down. From there, you could return them if you did not want to accomodate them or, find a friend with a pond that would like to add them

Looking forward at preparing the tank for the next round, you keep the tank running empty at about 92-95F (topping off as needed, if not daily). A good 7-10 days like that would be overkill, but provide an extra buffer for lifecycle variation. The reason is that free-swimming ich parasites must find a host within 24 hours or die. Turning up the heat speeds up the lifecycle and at >90F, part of the lifecycle is disrupted anyway. Before dropping temp, find out what temp the lfs keeps his white clouds at and drop the temp on the tank to that level before picking them up. Then, floating the bag will take care of any variations between the thermometers.

I don't know how parasites like Costia deal with heat. With that in mind and since the Nano-Cubes are also aimed at saltwater, I would make a 0.6% salt solution, or more, and dump it in when you run the heat up. Goldfish are notorious for Costia and could have carried it in. There is a salt resistant strain which can survive the 0.3%. Fewer can survive 0.6% or more. That amount is equal to 2 Tbsp per gallon. I find the Doc Wellfish freshwater aquarium salt dissolves pretty quick in very hot tap water, if you keep stirring it. With no fish in the tank and dumping it in quickly, you would likely shock any parasites anyway.

Before restocking, change at least 80-90% of the water to reduce salinity.

I guess I should ask if you have had, or plan to put in live plants into this nano-cube? If you ever do go to put plants in, ask about sterilization to prevent snails and parasites/bacteria. An ounce of prevention goes a long way......

What I like about white clouds is that they are not moving too fast all the time, whereas danios are dizzying. White Clouds are beautiful when fully grown and mine have very vibrant colors. Males will fully extend the dorsal fin and lower fins in a show of one-upmanship. I highly recommend a perfect ratio of 2 males to 4 females. While young, it is hard to distinguish. But males are more streamlined; females plump. Males have a yellow tip at the top of the dorsal fin, which may look more creamy than yellow when young. Females have a snow white tip to the dorsal fin. There is a golden white cloud variety too.

This is "Jaws" the dominant male - note the red lips from courtship and rivalry with the other male.

Cory_Di attached this image:


Last edited by Cory_Di at 22-Feb-2005 13:36[/font]

I think they were too far gone before I started treatment, plus the high ammonia complicated things. I have been doing daily 20% water changes.

They're just sitting on the problem gasping, so I'm guessing that their gills are pretty messed-up from the high ammonia and Ich.

I was thinking about Zebras as starter fish but I'll look at the White Clouds as a possibility too. I heard they're a good choice for that.

My LFS carries BioSpira so I'll use that. What about cleaning the tank to thoroughly get rid of the Ich?

Gravel recommendations?

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions. I want to get it right this time. Thanks so much for your help!

Last edited by renoharps at 22-Feb-2005 10:09

What is not looking good about the other ones? Have you done any water changes? A water change of even 50%, if it is same temp water can save them and you may need to do so frequently.

If you do lose these two, I highly recommend getting some bullet-proof, good first-time fish, like danios or white clouds. With them, you could get a group of pygmy cories or a smaller variety like julii, and some otos to clean algae. White clouds are fun to watch. They are cool water fish, but do well at 75F - a good compromise for all of the fish.

White Clouds are cycle-hardy and if you can find biospira, starting with 4 of them and adding 2 a week later with another bag will do you well.

Danios are dizzying if you can handle it.

If you don't want white clouds or danios, then I would suggests fishless cycling, unless you are in to livebearers. I don't encourage it as many are surprised to learn they have to figure out what to do with a million and one fry before long. They don't call guppies millions-fish for nothing

With biospira and 4 white clouds or danios, I would not expect ammonia to go over 0.25, maybe 0.5, but they will tolerate that well for a short period.

Watch any tank you get the fish from. Spend 15-20 minutes just inspecting all of the fish in there for signs of illness that could spread to your fish. Consider purchasing a net if you see them using the same one over and again. Have them use the net you are going to purchase.

Hope this helps.

Well Cory_Di, it doesn't look good for the last two fish. After they're gone, I'm planning on cleaning out the tank and starting over. What way would you recommend for starting over? Fishless or with BioSpira? I was also planning on pitching the gravel and maybe going with something like Eco Complete because I want to eventually get to a planted tank. Recommendations?

My son just turned 9 and he was pretty broken up after the first fish passed away but he has been ok after the other ones died.

Does Coppersafe kill nitrifying bacteria? The instructions say that it doesn't harm the bacteria. Just looking for a second opinion.

Wow! I didn't realize that 6 two-inch feeder goldfish would be too many, but again I went with what the LFS recommended. Makes sense now though that the ammonia went so high. Well, I'm down to 5 now and I'm pretty sure some more of them won't make it. Sounds like they're prolific ammonia producers!

I also read in one of the beginner articles that feeder goldfish are a poor choice for starter fish because of all the diseases they carry, just as you said.

Well, I'm going to start work with the salt and bacteria starter as well as continuing the CopperSafe to see if I can clear the problems up. What a way to start back into aquaria! I don't think my son has any clue of what I'm going through to make this right, although I try to explain everything as I'm learning it.

Thanks for all you help! I'll post an update as things change dramtically for better or worse, hopefully for better!

BioSpira is tops.

I must say tho, that there are many misconceptions about goldfish. I actually thought you had only one goldfish in the 12 gallon nano-cube, which for that size tank would have been perfect.

As much as it may hurt, I would really encourage you to return all but one, as soon as the tank is healthy enough as it would be unfair to the fish to transport them sick and to anyone who might inherit them.

Why? Goldfish get huge and they do so fast under correct water quality. They can live very long, but often die within months or a few years do to poor water quality. Weekly water changes of 50% won't be adequate for 5 goldfish in a 12 or 10 gallon. A 55 gallon may buy you 2 years with 5 goldfish, before they would really need a 90 or 125.

To give you some perspective....If one target is to keep the nitrates below 20ppm for optimal health, I cannot keep up with my 2, 3-inch goldfish in a 36 gallon bowfront. They have 18 gallons each and I cannot keep the nitrates down, even below 40 without doing 30% changes several times a week. Imagine if I had 5 or 6 in a 36 gallon. I now do those several changes a week and hope to move soon so I can get them into a bigger tank so I can enjoy them with less work .

Worst case scenario is that not only will the nitrates be astronomical, but the filter may have difficulty keeping up and you could end up with ammonia and nitrites down the road. And, in such cramped conditions, the pH will likely decline quickly between water changes, and overall. The water quality issues, we now know, leads to a condition called stunting. That is, the fish ages and does not increase in size. It lives a much shorter life - like months or years, instead of decades.

Check your ammonia and nitrite daily and look for signs of nitrates. Bacterial starters are best added with the fish so it is definitely not too late. Continue testing. I would also get a product like Prime or Amquel Plus, but don't dose more than 1 drop/gal every 12 hours for 1 or 2 days, rather than one big dose. It robs the tank of oxygen. These fish will also need that salt to help them through the heavy nitrite phase.

Anyway, if this puts perspective on the goldfish issue, here is an example of a fish that may only be 3 or 4 years old. Common goldfish - typical feeders - can grow to well over a foot long in no time.

Cory_Di attached this image:



Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Feb-2005 12:44[/font]

Thanks! I appreciate all the info.

Yes, I believe I went through all I could at the time to minimize stress when introducing the goldfish, but I have learned a lot since then as far as trying to minimize the temperature and pH differences. I went with the advice from the LFS and realize now that it left something to be desired. For example, they told me to just increase the tank temp to 85 degrees to get rid of the Ich. Before doing that I researched on this site and learned that high of a temperature would most likely kill the cooler temperature goldfish. I went to another LFS and got some better advice and that's when I decided to use the CopperSafe after raising the temperature gradually to 79 degrees to speed up the lifecyle of the Ich.

I started with 6 feeder goldfish but lost one last night. The multiple stresses of Ich, ammonia and a newbie were too much for him. The other five seem to be doing ok. The Ich spots are not getting any worse taking into consideration the Ich lifecyle. If they make it through, I was planning on transferring them to a new smaller tank such as a 6g Nanocube or a small Eclipse tank since my son has grown attached to them.

I appreciate the advice on the salt. I was going to add that after reading other posts on its benefits, but your advice made feel confident enought to use it. Should I also use BioSpira to help reduce the ammonia level until my tank starts cycling? It consistently tests between .5 and 1.0. Is NIC the same as BioSpira? I've seen a lot of posts from users that have had good luck with that. Don't know which one will be carried at my LFS. I've read about the fishless cycling process, maybe I'll try that with my next tank. I think it would be more humane, plus it would reduce running into these kind of problems.

Last edited by renoharps at 21-Feb-2005 12:07

A few more comments after hearing back from you.

First off, you made a great choice with a 12 gallon nano cube for your son. What a great way to enjoy time with him and that is really a great setup. I'm jealous. I've got my eye on the new 6 gallon they just came out with for a planted nano betta setup.

Something good to know about ich is that yes, it can be transmitted into your tanks water through the bag, but it only takes a drop for just a few parasites to end up in the tank. The key is keeping the stress level for the fish down - something that is difficult for newly transported fish.

How can we lessen that? I'm sure you floated the bag for a good 20-30 minutes to acclimate. It's also good to ask the lfs for a sample of the pH out of the tank from which the fish come and compare it to your tank, which hopefully ran at least 2-3 days before fish was added. It is best to check the pH at least 24 hours after the filter has been running because tap water can contain compressed gasses, as can well water, which make the pH seem low at first. Once the gasses equalize with the atmosphere, the pH can change. Mine comes out of the tap at 7.0 and rises to 8.0 after 24 hours of water movement.

Aside from pH changes causing stress, I'd like to go back to temp stress. Since fish don't self regulate their body temps, it is governed by the environment. When they have to go from a store tank whose temp is say 78, to a tank that may be 74 or even 70 if it is unheated, that is an awful huge leap in temp in such a short period. Floating the bag certainly drops the temp, but 4 or 8 degrees over 30 minutes can be very stressful. Consider your body temp dropping from 98.6 to 95.6 in that amount of time. This increases the chance that parasites in the water, or disease, can get a grip on your new fish.

I often ask lfs people for parameters a day or two ahead. If the store tank is much warmer than my 75F tank, then I have actually temporarily raised my tank to meet that temp part way, beginning a few days ahead. I increment 1-1.5F daily to get to say, 77 or 78 to meet the lfs 80F. When I float the bag, the temp is only changing 2F in 30 minutes. Its still a leap, but not as harsh. The fish in my main tank don't even notice the gradual climb.

Transport is another issue. Chilling is a big stressor. I use a lunch cooler with a towel inside, year round, for fish purchases. I like to keep the bag temp very stable for the trip home, regardless of how short that trip is.

I would also recommend not buying from any feeder tanks unless you can quarantine a fish for several weeks. Those tanks are pathogen soup, chock-full of bacteria and parasites. It is interesting to see the practices of some fish stores, who will net a dead or dying fish, then simply return the net to a bin where it is later used to net your fish . Believe it or not, I have spent the 99 cents several times when buying fish, to get a new net for them to catch my fish with. Then I sanitize it when I get home.

I don't know how long you've been out of the hobby, but one really great thing is that the cycling process for new tanks has really evolved. There are bacterial starters now with live bacteria which consume ammonia and nitrite - those two toxins responsible for killing fish with new tank syndrome. Some are better than others. I've tested BioSpira by marineland and found it to be superb, keeping ammonia at no higher than 0.25 on one day. The tank fully cycled within 4 days.

There is also fishless cycling where you can use ordinary, scent/dye/detergent-free ammonia to cycle the tank. No fish get sick or die in the process and you don't have fish that need to be returned to the fish store.

About the salt....

With Ich, I highly recommend using salt. Doc Wellfish is a really good brand. It takes time to predissolve it tho and it does so easiest in hot water. I use a drop of conditioner in a cup of water and stir it while it takes time to get to room temp.

If all you have is a goldfish in the tank, then you have a highly salt tolerant fish. A 0.3% solution will help not only with the ich, but kill off protozoan infestations, and help keep infection at bay from the ich bites. It also helps inhibit nitrite uptake into the bloodstream, which, if your tank is cycling, is likely present. 0.3% is equivalent to 1 Tablespoon per gallon. However, it is not all dosed at once. That could cause osmotic shock. Rather, you dose it at a rate of 1 teaspoon per gallon, three times, 12 hours apart. So, I would use 3 cups and predissolve all 36 teaspoons now, then dose each cup every 12 hours. Watch the fish for any signs of stress and do a partial water change if you see it. It is important to predissolve the salt tho or it can burn the fish.

I would take one added precaution or keep one other med in your medicine chest just in case the salt doesn't keep infection at bay. That is, get some Pimafix. It is a botanical that does not hurt good bacteria in your tank. Infections like Columnaris (aka, body fungus) can arise from ich bites and if caught early, Pimafix can help. In fact, it is perfectly safe to dose while the coppersafe and salt are in the tank.

Activated carbon would need to be removed tho.

Sorry for the long winded post. Let us now how he does. Is the goldfish a permanent resident, or will you be returning him?


EDIT: Hadn't noticed your request for a copper test kit. Good idea. Here's the one I used...

http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/copper/Class//T1/F73+1044+0403/EDP/43950/Itemdy00.aspx

It's fairly new and I had to buy it from this place.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Feb-2005 10:02

Thanks so much for the info Cory_Di and Tammy! This site is a great source of info.

I'm just getting back into freshwater aquaria after a long hiatus. I bought a 12g Nanocube for my son for his birthday and had just added starter goldfish when I had an outbreak of Ich. I did a lot of research on this site and talked with LFS people and decided to go with CopperSafe. I learned my lesson on dumping LFS water into my tank, although the fish were probably already infected. I figured I needed to deal with the infection otherwise I would get very much farther in the tank cycling.

Should I also use aquarium salt to help the infections? I've read many posts in this forum about the benefits of salt use. Some members have even said they keep a level of salt in their tank at all times.

I'm also looking for a good test kit for Cheleated Copper so I can maintain the proper levels beyond using the recommended dose.

Also, thanks for the welcome Cory_Di!

It says it doesn't and I have never had a problem with it doing so when I have used it.

Alot of what you will find is people pass on information that they have heard. One person tells five that Coppersafe (only using this as an example) is bad to use and can do all sorts of nasty things. Those five people tell five more and so on. Alot of fallicies get started that way and it is unfortunate.

The two biggest concerns when using Coppersafe should be using it in a tank where invertebrates are housed (it will kill them) and not exceeding the recommended dosage.

I've heard the same thing about Coppersafe for a long long time. Truth be told, I believe it is probably one of the most effective treatments for external parasites there is.

I would bet that if the bacteria colony in a persons tank is harmed after the use of Coppersafe that it wasn't the use of Coppersafe that caused the problem as long as you follow directions. That would be true in any case with any med. Manufacturers can not afford to mislead the public in what their products do when used. That opens them up to all kinds of issues.

Aquarium salt is another one. I think it is great stuff. It doesn't cure alot of diseases but it is a tremendous "aid" when used with other products in healing alot of conditions.

I have used it at half strength and did not notice any ill effects on my biofilter. But, I have not used it at full strength for any length of time.

I have PM'd one of our members who may have to see what her epxerience is. If she doesn't catch my PM today, maybe you'll see a reply tomorrow.

BTW - welcome to fishprofiles.com

Diane