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Before I started meds I lost 5 fish in two days. The med does seem to have stopped the infection from spreading further.
I'll go for the 10 day treatment so I still have another 5 days to go. I'm keeping an eye on the water incase the cycle gets put out.
The food was very easy to make, i've put that page into my favourites. The only problem I had was crushing the tablets and stopping them from flying across the room!

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Lindy, a vet check is about $70, cheaper than restocking if it turns out to be treatable, and if not, at least you will know. i'd suggest if it happens again, you high-tail it to the vet for a liver biopsy and culture. I am unsure of what procedure they use for virus detection, but yo could discus this at the time.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Thanks for the reminders and tips everyone.
I've given the first dose of food. The didnt seem to sure of it, but its slowly being eaten. How long should I keep treatment up for? Also wondering should I keep lights off for the whole treatment?
My lfs doesnt even sell UV sterilizers but I will try and hunt one down that I may be able to borrow.
Calla, great idea! We have 2 vets that deal in fish nearby now so hopefully they can help if this doesnt work.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Well another cherry barb is gone. Do you think an autopsy can be done on one of these?

Just spoke to my lfs, he told me to "whack" some epsom salts in the water to raise the GH. My GH is at 10, KH at 6. Thoughts?

Last edited by Lindy at 08-Nov-2004 00:08

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

I'm a flunky in the gH/kH dept, but can answer the medicated feed question: 7-10 days, minimum. That should be the only food for that period. If you have algae eaters and it is a challenge or impossible for them to feed on this, then put some veggies in there for them or an algae water in total darkness.

I'm glad you chose the one made in gelatin. It will retain the antibiotic better than mixtures that "coat" flakes or pellets. This easily washes off.

Epsom salts make fish poop, but I know when used with bettas, we have to watch how much and how fast. It is magnesium sulfate, not a true salt. It can also help pull water from their system when they are in dropsy, but usually only keeps them alive for a few days or a week longer, if underlying problem isn't fixed. Not sure what effects it has on gH/kH.

Never heard of gH or kH alone causing fish deaths. Usually, it is when the pH swings about because the water isn't buffered. I wonder if he thinks your pH is swinging during the day.



Last edited by Cory_Di at 08-Nov-2004 07:23

Just thought I'd pop in and clear some confusion up, even though there's not a whole lot else i can tell you. Your GH and KH is fine, don't bother with the epsom salts, they really won't do anything for you IMO. Your KH is high enough that you really shouldn't be seeing pH swings either, looking at your numbers, it looks great to me. The LFS might have just been grasping at straws, really not sure what else to tell you.

I second calla's motion to get an autopsy done. I've seen bent spines a few times, always in cases of rapid muscle tissue degeneration, and I've only been able to save one fish with it. IMO, a bent spine is always a sure sign of something really nasty making the fish sick, at least with an autopsy you'll know what it is and what you need to do for sure. Some vets will laugh at you if you want to get a cherry barb autopsied, most GOOD vets will at least give it a try. Some university science departments might do a post mortem for you for free, best thing to do is just call around and see what's offered locally.

Well, I hope it works out for you, sorry I couldn't do more to help. Good luck.

Lindy - how are the fish doing? Anyone else sick or dying?
Is the medicated feed working out?

Everything seems to be doing okay right now. No more deaths since I last posted.

It took a couple of doses of the medicated food before the fish realised what it was but they now happily eat it. Must be a bit strange to them eating jelly.
I'll finish the course of antibiotic food and hopefully all will be okay.

I did try to get one of the two vets to do tests on that cherry barb. One is away on vacation and the other gave me a price that was certainly not cheaper than restocking. If I had the $$ to go ahead I would of, mainly out of curiosity, but I really cant justify the money for it. Especially now that the fish appear to be improving.

I'll keep you updated on progress, and thanks again to everyone who took the time to post advise. Much appreciated!

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

I'm so glad you are using the gelatin version of the medicated food. I often promoted that recipe, but most opted to coat food with a mixture of egg yolk and antibiotic powder or some other substance to make it stick. Once it is wet, some of it will come off rather than get ingested. However, the gelatin food will always have med within. To me, it's the next best thing to milled-in medicated feed.

Consider posting that on this site as an article so we can link to it, if it's not there already.

How often were you losing fish prior to the treatment?

I would definitely feed 10 days minimum since that was such a nasty killer bug. On the purchased feed I have that is medicated all say minimum 7-10 and some say 14 days minimum, with a second round optional if things are healing, but still not gone. Last thing you need is a resistant superbug if it isn't completely killed off and starts back up again.

The other thing I remembered wondering about with that particular recipe for medciated fish feed, was the heat and the tetracycline. I have recommended that the antibiotic be added once the gelatin mixture has gotten only warm to the touch, but not yet thickened. It's great to see it works as is.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 11-Nov-2004 19:52

just a few points to be aware of - tetracycline causes photosenstivity in humans, and if you have ever had a reaction to the "cycline" drugs, you must use latex gloves when handling it. It can and will cause reactions through skin absorption.

I'm sure you know you must keep lights off whilst dosing, as tetra breaks down when exposed to light.

Something I'm also thinking is, do you know anyone who could lend you a UV sterilizer for a few days - actually, about 2 weeks? I have found that it can work very well at knocking diseases out if antibiotics are unavaliable or not working. I've got a spare, unfortunately, that's not much help

Maybe your LFS will have a demo one you could borrow?

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

There's no way of knowing whether or not the med actually did anything...

Remember I said that the malady can suddenly stop as quick as it started.

Bacteria invasions take the weakest fish first while the others avoid the onslaught because of immunity responses.

--garyroland.

The food was very easy to make, i've put that page into my favourites. The only problem I had was crushing the tablets and stopping them from flying across the room!

Hey, this is the kind of thing everyone needs if they crush pills for fish or themselves. I have this one and it is awesome. YOu just put the goods into the container and screw the cap on. With each quarter turn the stuff gets smaller and smaller and can be ground to a powder. I use it to crush fish food pellets on occassion.

http://www.dynamic-living.com/pill_crusher.htm

There's no way of knowing whether or not the med actually did anything

Well, Gary this is true, however, the medicated food won't hurt them. With those kinds of losses I think its worth a try if the only alternative is to wait out more possible losses or breaking down the tank.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 11-Nov-2004 21:26

Gary you are correct in what you say. For all I know the deaths could of stopped without it. It wasnt a risk I was prepared to take though. I also couldnt and still wont euthanaise a healthy appearing fish. They are all eating and look in good condition. It seems wrong to me to not give them a chance to live out a healthy life.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

The choice was a personal one...

My point was if the sickness and death stopped, then of course you'd be the winner.

Actually I'm thrilled you got a break from the dilemma. Some others I've known didn't fare as well.

--garyroland.



Last edited by garyroland at 12-Nov-2004 09:34

Lindy is it still going ok? Have you finished the med and is everyone looking healthy?

Yes they are all looking great!

I stopped medicating a couple days ago, did a water change yesterday and popped some carbon into the filter for good measure. I was worried about a mini cycle after the antibiotics but that doesnt seem to be a problem. I'll be feeding lightly for a week or so to make sure nothing goes wrong.

Sorry I havent been back to update for a while. Things are a little hectic here right now.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Good to see it is finally done. While it's possible it would have stopped on its own, I think you gave added insurance against it.

We love good endings

Was just heading to bed and looked over at my 55g tank to discover my female bolivian ram dead in the plants. The body looked perfect except for the spine bent, almost to 90 degrees.
Its rather odd because I'm sure I saw her eating at food time tonight.

Ammonia, nitrite are 0, nitrate at 10. pH 7

Anyone have a diagnosis for me? Should I just keep watch of the others? If I should be getting ready to treat something let me know so I can try and find meds, they are tough to find here.

Other fish are:
6 cherry barbs, 1 bn plec, 2 SAE's, 1 RTB and a male bolivian ram.

Last edited by Lindy at 13-Oct-2004 08:31

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

The fish are all eating well, I was watching becasue I figured if there is any one in particular that has stopped eating they may be the next to die off. Their poo seems to be normal to me. I did lose one cherry barb and a panda cory, both bent like the others. I wouldnt of picked them for sick.
Theres no nasty algae, only a bit of green which i'm not too worried about. I am always very careful with my foods. Frozen foods are defrosted on demand and I buy small containers of dry food to ensure that they stay fresh. Food is kept in a cupboard away from the tank because of the risk of small fingers getting to them. I caught Ryan actually unscrewing the lid of one container once! Dont want to go down that disaster road!
Tonight I decided to hunt down a recipe to make my own medicated food which I will start using tomorrow as its late now. If anyone wants to reference it the link is below.

[link=http://aquariumhobbyist.com/artoffishkeeping/disease.html]http://aquariumhobbyist.com/artoffishkeeping/disease.html" style="COLOR: #004040[/link]

Thanks for the help so far.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Aww, Gary - I'll take that as a compliment . It is true, I'm reluctant to destroy all the tank's inhabitants in such cases, as opposed to a wait and see.

I went through something similar with my nephews tank and was almost positive I was dealing with TB. All of the white clouds my nephews mother had purchased at a large chain store went slowly downhill, one by one - and with bent spines. Then, a cory mysteriously died, but its color hadn't been looking good. In each case, I had him wait and the drop-off occurred about once every 4-6 weeks. I did dose the tank with Kanacyn after the Cory died figuring if it was bacterial it may help. Kanacyn is "rumored" to help with TB, but I don't necessarily believe it. I dosed it on the basis that some type of infection may be invading the tank.

We have not lost any more fish. This all began about 6 months ago with the last fish dying about 2 months back. I told him we could not get anymore fish for that tank until we went a good 2-3 months with no further deaths. We are almost there and the fish are looking reasonably healthy. However, I'm going to wait another month to make sure.

I don't know how tetracycline is on plants.

Additional questions:

1) Have you had any blue-gree or red slimey algae in the tank? This can be toxic, especially when it dies off.

2) Any chance the food came in contact with water or moisture and molded. While moldy bread won't kill us (other than the thought of eating it), moldy food is very deadly to fish.

3) Frozen food...have you thawed, then refigerated uneaten portions to re-feed later? If so, this can cause deadly infections according to Hikari USA.

If you decide to watch like I did with my nephews tank, I would make sure they get the best of food that is less than 60 days opened to boost their immunity. Anything open more than 60 days has lost much of its good "stuff".

Best wishes - and, beautiful tank. I hope it slows down.

More reading on Aflatoxicosis and Aflatoxins: [link=http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA095]http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA095" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]