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That's an awful scenario...

But you've been around long enough to understand, and determine, what exactly has to be done.

Unfortunately this particular dilemma has nothing to do with water quality, or for that matter, with nutrition or gravel either.

We, as fish lovers, are determined to stop what is killing our fish and take all kinds of measures to stop the carnage.

The only encouragement I can offer is if the killing stops and all life goes back to normal which I've rarely seen in other tanks.

Diane is the eternal optimist, always trying to save what she believes can be saved and that scenario, I'm sure, has its place in this world.

Watch the tank, Lindy. If the die-off continues, nothing in the medicine chest, I believe, will remedy the situation.

--garyroland.

Last night I did a good clean and ever so gently stirred the gravel incase there were any pockets of bubbles. There werent any. This tank is planted and has 2 pieces of wood and a couple of rocks. Photos can be found [link=here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Photo%20Booth/48117.html" style="COLOR: #004040[/link]. I've been running through all that is in the tank, the rocks have been used for years in other tanks so I dont think they could be causing a problem. I've had no blackouts here since the tank was started.

Gary, are you suggesting I euthanase all my fish now? Clean the tank out and start again? What about plants? I've just completed stocking this tank and alot of thought went into it. Not to be difficult or throw away your advice, because I do value it, but I feel I want to try fight whatever this is. (even though we have limited meds to do this with)

Di, I'm pretty sure you are aware of the awful lack of fish meds here. I do however have some tetracycline. I'll have a look at my fish today, follow what you have said if I think its needed. No medicated foods are available that I have ever seen unfortunately. I might do another small water change before I start treatment.

Lindy

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

"I don't think the curvature is related to death, as opposed to what happens to the body during or after death in the tank."

In this case, Diane, a rapidly bent spine and immediate death and dropsy-like bloating in other species, as reported, is a sure sign of contageous TB.

The disease will run through the tank uncontrolled and probably kill most, if not all, trops.

--garyroland.

I have seen post-mortem bent spines when dying or dead fish are sucked to the intake. If they should come lose (other fish picking at it) and float around they are permantely bent 90. In fact, one poor sucker was bent 90 while he was still alive - barely. Found my nephews fish stuck to the intake and shut the pump off and found him still breathing. We euthanized. His mother had gotten him fish from a large chain store and all of those fish slowly died off. If they were bent in all different directions when you found them I would think otherwise. I don't think the curvature is related to death, as opposed to what happens to the body during or after death in the tank.

Lindy, I have to ask if you have suffered any kind of power loss to your pumps in recent weeks. If a pump has been off for 1 hour or more and the stagnant water is not dumped, it can spew anaerobic bacteria into the tank. The result is one such as you describe with fish slowly being picked off and, it may not start for a few weeks. It can continue for months.

During the big blackout, the fish store across the street, and another I frequent said that many people's fish survived the blackout, but they failed to dump the stagnant water in their pumps. They allowed them to simply turn back on with the power rather than unplugging them so they could be cleaned out when power returned. The end result was a steady rise of fish deaths in the area for several weeks following the outage. The one fish store with undergravel filters had severe losses in the weeks that followed the outage. There was nothing he could do. Most survived the outage only to die of severe internal infections brought on after the pumps came back on. He lost two large, georgous oscars about 2-3 months after the outage, but they started to deteriorate a week or two after power returned.

Marineland states right in its filter lit that 1 hour or more of power loss requires the water to be dumped and the filter go through a regular cleaning. UGF's need to be hooked up to battery operated pumps to keep oxygenated water flowing through the system during outages.

Anyway, it is just a thought.

Similarly, I would inspect the tank for any pockets of gravel that may be compacted (hard to reach). Aeromonas can develop in areas that are devoid of oxygenated water. I also have suspicions of some of these fancy decorated caves that have small holes in them where water can get in, but well oxygenated water can't circulate. I epxerienced this with a cave that had a hole in the bottom for water to help sink it. When I went to move it 2 months later to gravel vac good around it, this smelly sludge came out. I heaved that cave out into the snow. I believe these things can harbor anaerobic bacteria which grows in the absence of o2 and can cause severe sickness.

Watch the feces of your fish - what color is it?

If I were experiencing a loss like that, I would at least give something like tetracycline a shot or whatever you can get in AUS. If it is a virus, it won't respond. If it is an internal parasite it won't respond. But, if it is a severe bacterial infection, maybe it will stop it. I would suggest medicated feed if you can get it in AUS. Internal infections don't usually respond too well to waterborne meds so you may continue to lose some. However, for those who are only lightly infected, it may boost their immunity. Kill th lights with tetracycline as it renders it ineffective. Watch ammonia and nitrite closely throughout and up to 3-4 days after a round of treatement.

If for some reason you have nitrates that are really up there (i.e., 300-400ppm), some of the newest fish disease books discuss a steady die off. It dilates blood vessels and causes a deterioration of their immunity - so we now know.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Nov-2004 12:08

I can understand one case of bent spine and sudden death but when others occur there's a definite problem and it's not good...

In fish, "Mycobacterium marinum" causes systemic tuberculosis.

Anorexia.
Weight loss (to emaciation).
Bulbous eyes (exophthalmia).
Skin defects.
Spinal deformities.
Distension of the abdomen.
Sudden death. Sometimes occurs before other signs are seen.

This is also a freshwater trop problem.

No antibiotics are effective with fish that contract this disease and the disease spreads quickly, as evidenced by the deaths your trops are experiencing.

Be cautious when handling fish or water to prevent transmission.

I don't have to tell you the action that's required.

--garyroland.

10 nitrate is good.

FW fish can live peacefully in up to 60ppm of nitrate.

ok, i think u said ur nitrate was 10.? well i think that was ur cause, nitrate is dangerouse too ya know, try doing a water change, thats all i can think of at the moment, and sorry for your losses

I need help again guys. I've lost a glass catfish and 2 cherry barbs, all found with bent spines after death.
Ammonia and nitrite are 0, pH at 7.2. Cant find my nitrate kit.
I also have 2 cherry barbs with dropsy. I'm not sure they will last long, nor that there is anything I can do for them now?

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

I considered that too fishman, but the tank is lightly stocked and apart from the fish dying in the position it was it looked perfect. No torn fins or battered scales.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your fish..

Shock is another cause of bent spine, such as when a fish gets attacked etc..

The Amazon Nut...

Viral attacks in trops will show the same symptoms...

The heart stops quickly, the fish pulls inward and rigid and dies.

I don't believe that happened to your trop, Lindy, at least I hope not.

There's no known cure for virus attacks in trops.

--garyroland.

--Vero Beach, Florida.





Last edited by garyroland at 14-Oct-2004 16:30

That is interesting. You dont think it would be anything else Gary? I'm worried my fish will be taken one by one by something nasty. I guess I will have to watch and hope that it was just a heart attack. Poor fishie.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

It's always been a mystery to me why some fish that suffer heart attacks are pulled into a fetal position while some others are not...

I would guess it all depends on the severity of the attack and the suddenness of the event.

--garyroland.

--Vero Beach, Florida.