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Hello everyone,

First off, I have not tested the water in the tank yet, which I will do tomorrow and post the results.

But, we started a new 10 gallon tank. It was an old tank, thorougly washed and scrubbed with vinegar before use (all vinegar rinsed out). New rocks, new decoration, new Penguin Mini filter, hood with light. Purified water userd. I cycled the tank before we put any fish in. We got two marigold swordtails (m and f) and two silver mollies (m and f). The female swordtail was injured, which I didn't notice, and died the next day. I noticed some algae bloom activity in the tank in the first couple days.

Within the next week, the female mollie died of some fungus she got, even after two days of treating the water with PimaFix antifungal remedy. So we were left with the male swordtail and the male mollie. I did a 25% water change at this time, putting in purified water. This was about 2 weeks into it.

I put in an old guppy we had that had been in a glass bowl for a long time. About this time (around 3 weeks into it) I did another 25% water change using a gravel vac because I noticed a lot of poo in the gravel.

Then, the guppy started acting weird (floating near the surface for long periods of time) and suddenly died. Another week has passed, and the swordtail and molly are starting to act the same way - decreased activity. The swordtail is now floating near the surface just the way the guppy was, and the mollie is hiding in the decoration a lot - they used to be quite active. I have also noticed a lot of algae buildup on the tank walls and in the gravel.

Anyone know what's going on?

Lots of things might be going on...

First of all, do you add any supplements to the purified water? You should as it's too pure for the fish and lack essential minerals necessary for the fish, and that might be the cause of your problem. There are commerical additives out there especially for purified water or you can mix it with some tap water (after they've been dechlorinated).

You only mention live-bearers in your post. If that is the case, they will do much better with salt in the water on a permanent basis. The recommended dose is 1 tablespoon for 5 gallons, but some people prefer to add less. Add the salt gradually and don't dump it all at once. If you have other fish in there, you can probably still add salt (depends what other fish you have there) and see if things get better.

Try this and let us know how things are going on and what are the test results, once you have them.

Last edited by untitled at 14-Dec-2004 02:56

Thanks for the great info! I come from a state where we can use the tap water - not used to Arizona where the tap water is death.

I will post the water test results later today.

Okay:

pH is around 7.6
ammonia is 0 ppm
nitrite is 5.0 ppm (obviously the problem)

I will treat the water for nitrite immediately. I also added some aquarium salt.

Well nitrItes are not really dangerous till they are around 20. But, what this does say, is your cycle was not complete. As you should have 0 nitrItes, 0 ammonia, and then a slow increase in the nitrAtes. NitrAte levels are why you do the water changes.

I think maybe the ammonia was elevated and this is what might have hurt your fish. But, by the time you have checked it, the ammonia was broken down into nitrItes. I would watch the fish closely, and watch your cycle levels closely as well. Treat them if need be.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Sounds as if your tank is simply going through a nitrite spike which is common in new tanks until the cycle has completed. Just do a partical water change and reduce how much you feed your fish until the nitrites go down.

And in addition to the two posts above, the salt which you added to the water will help the fish during the nitrite spike. You can also add some AmQuel Plus which will detoxify the nitrites in the water until it will be consumed by the bacteria. AmQuel Plus reduces the amount of oxygen in the water, so you have to make sure your water is well aerated. Because AmQuel is also used to detoxify ammonia, nitrates, chlorine and chloramines, I think that adding activated carbon to the filter (if you don't already use it) helps to filter the excess of chemicals not in work out of the water. This will also reduce the effect of AmQuel on the oxygen.

You should replace the dead fish if you want to continue cycling your tank. Otherwise the tank will only mini cycle and when you add more fish again it will re cycle causing more stress on the fish you get.
Now, livebearers really dont need salt in their water at all. That is a myth. Most livebearers are raised and born in freshwater now, regardless of type.
What they do need is, is clean, clear, cycled water in the tank. Mollies are ridiculously weak and sickly these days because of too much inbreeding over the decades. I would suggest cycling with a hardier fish- White Cloud Mountain Minnows are great for cycling! They stay small too. I would get around 6-8 WCMM's to cycle your tank with. Also, You should consider looking into Prime water conditioner, it detoxifies nitrites, ammonia,and removes heavy metals, chlorine and chloramine. 1 bottle will last you a year. You use very little.
Also, adding some live plants to your tank will help. Try an easy low light plant like Wisteria. Livebearers love plants
If you are using purified water make sure it is just bottled water, not reverse osmosis filtered. If it is you will need to buy "Trace Elements" and dose according to instructions!
Good luck, hope this helps some


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I should replace the dead fish? You mean buy more fish right now? I wasn't going to do that until I get the water stablized. The remaining molly and swordtail are showing signs of improvement already - not sure if it is the salt I added, or that the ammonia had been killing them and now it is nitrites.

I will get some water conditioner because it is becoming clear that purified water is not the ideal thing to use. Unfortunately we don't have many more options in Arizona.

Thanks for the great advice everyone!

NO, don't buy any more fish right away. Wait till your water parameters stabilize more. Then slowly add a fish or two at a time, and not a bunch. This will allow the cycle to "catch up" to the increased biological load of the added fish.

HTH....

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There is always a bigger fish...

I was always told when you are cycling tank, you should keep the number of fish up to where you want it (adding slowly of course), otherwise the nitrobacter and nitrosomonas will stop dividing at that point.
When I cycled my tank I was told if I wanted to keep 30 fish of medium size in my tank, I should cycle with 30 medium size comets, adding 5-7 at a time in one week intervals, and if a fish dies, replace it ASAP, so the bacteria doesnt die off. Otherwise say you had 30 comets, and 20 die off, the bacteria dies back down to support the bioload of only 10 comets. This will cause your tank to recycle every time you add more fish, and when you transfer out the comets, again 5-7 at a time, you replace them with the stock you desire. I was told this by several people who have been successfully keeping fish for over 4 decades. It worked well for me.
All that happens once your water stabilizes and you add more fish is another cycle, though smaller, but harder on the fish you already had live through the first cycle.


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When adding fish, the cycle does not die off and start again, it just increases. And starting off with a large amount of fish to cycle a tank, is cruel to the fish you use. As you will be placing them in an extremely hazarous environment until the cycle is started and grows to meet the needs.

Pete, if this is the way you beleive, then that is fine. But, as for the number of people that beleive it is wrong, there are thousands that have been keeping fish for decades and decades, that will disagree with you. As well, there are tons of books and literature, as well as studies done, that will disagree with you. Why place a fish in a hazardouse environment and risk illness and even death, to get the cycle where you want it. It is not right. Also, the big concensous these days is the fishless cycle. Wether it be with a dead piece of shrimp or fish, or instant cycle. This way you get they cycle started and completed without harming any fish.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Andy, I think you are making a wise decision to not add more fish and letting things stablize. Have you added freshwater aquarium salt? If you have some Doc Wellfish Aquarium Salt, you can put a half dose in if you have cories. The salt needs to dissolve slowly. There are two ways to do this. 1) Predissolve it in a bottle of pre-conditioned, warm water and slowly dribble the solution in over the course of 1-2 days. 2) Put the 1/2 dose into a disposable container (like tiny Glad containers), and poke a few holes into the lid. Sink it. The salt will dissolve slowly over days. This will help restore electrolytes due to openings in the skin from infection.

I agree with Acid.

I look at it this way Pete - All things gradual in fish keeping will keep you out of trouble. If one doesn't have patience, they will learn it with this hobby.

My belief in stocking a new tank, is to use some type of seeded media if you already have tanks. For example, run an extra filter on another tank for 3-4 weeks, then transfer the filter. I have even bought cheapo sponge filters to run in one of my main tanks that would later run on a new tank while the primary filter gets seeded. If I had no seeded media availabe, then I would stock the tank with 1/4 the number of max fish allowable for my tank size and I would dose the tank with Bio-Spira, which has now been coming back into the market. Or, I would use another bacterial starter. I would trust Bio-Spira with more sensitive fish than I would others, just based on experience.

When I see a good steady rise in nitrates, I add another 1/4 of the stock. I usually wait a few weeks in between stocking just to let the biofilter grow. I took my time and didn't finish stocking my 20 long for about 3 months. This allowed my biofilter to grow slowly, stabilize, and to ensure that my fish were settling in with no unexpected problems. The process involved quarantining, which made up some of the time too.

I always tell people that when a fish dies in their tank, unless they know it was old age, the worst thing they can do is to go out and buy more fish. This is exposing existing fish to something new and the new fish to potential illness in a tank where a fish had died. I made my nephew wait one month after a death because of the circumstances. It was a good thing. Everything was fine until about 4 weeks later when another one suddenly had the same symptoms, then died two weeks later the same way. 3 weeks after that a cory succumbed to a similar condition. Parameters were all in line, but I suspected some severe bacterial infection from new fish he got from an unreputable store. Now it has been a couple months of no more deaths and I will take him to the store for new additions. Some infections just work slowly through the tank picking off one fish at a time and it's not worth spending money on new fish only to expose them and kill them off.

As for using goldfish to cycle tanks, then getting rid of them, I personally have a problem with it, but that's me. It's unnecessary in an age when we have Bio-Spira, NIC, Stress Zyme, among others. We also have advanced to the point where we can do fishless cycling with ammonia (unless you live where you can't buy ammonia). Those strategies of "using" fish for cycling, just are outdated, imho.

Here is a really good article by Fritz, the maker of Fritz Zyme, another bacterial starter. I've seen similar numbers and data from other sources, so this is just as good. It is data on nitrogen cycle bacteria including growth rates under various conditions. Interesting stuff!

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html


Last edited by Cory_Di at 18-Dec-2004 23:56

Thanks for the great advice everyone, the two remaining fish are doing much better. They are more active and the swordtail is regaining some color that he had lost. I did add aquarium salt, 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons.

One other question - I am seeing lots of algae growth on the back wall of the tank. Should I clean it off, or look at getting an algae eater, or just leave it?

It is purely up to you, clean it, leave it, or get an algae eater. It does no harm to your fish or your tank, and in fact, it increases the oxygen in the tank, as well as helps keep the nitrAtes down. Seeing it growing is a good sign for knowing your cycle is working. I have several tanks that have algae growing on the three back sides, and no algae eaters of any kind in the tank. It can actually make a nice look to some tank setups.

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There is always a bigger fish...