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Sharpix,
To start us off how about answering the questions listed in [link=this sticky note]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/43725.html?200407200128" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link]. A few things come to mind but without a bit more information about the fish it'd be hard to say for sure.



^_^

[hr width='40%']"I'm alright, I'm alright
It only hurts when I breathe"

My goldfish was acting normal three weeks ago but now its sick. I've been doing some extensive research and have found nooooothing that can describe the things are happening.

First, he developed some white bumps right at the lateral line first three scales, then comming off and dissapearing.

After this, in the head soft tissue, showed some white dots similar to those developed when you know the goldfish is male.

But now, there are somewhat bigger white spots on the head and in the place of the cheek pimples. Those are bigger than ich and resemble The RAPID BREATHING was one of the suspects for treating agains velvet.

I medicated the tank with copper sulphate and turned the heat up to 80° F but this morning on one of the sides, he has some reddened scales. Of course the tail's veins are very red and he's resting on the tank's floor.

The white bumps at the gill plates are weird and the red scales found today are even more strange.

What could it be? Velvet or fungus or something else? Should I try with Acriflavin instead?

Cory, and your second name would be 'supportive'?

I did take some measures some hours ago:

Moved the fish to a quarantine tank, a 25g with only 15gallons filled, exact temp of main tank, water conditioner, the .3% of salt, 4 drops of acriflavine per gallon as instruction said, and a 500mg capsule tetraciline on the water (for today, tomorrow is the food medicated)

The fish was BARELY breathing, I really though he was about to die of suffocation...! With some desperation, I used some airline tubing to route some water flow from the powerhead to his mouth to promote breathing....

IT WORKED PERFECTLY! The water moved some slime that was attached to the mouth cavity and gills and 4 minutes later, with the arms tired of having the fish in one arm, the hose in another, he started to breathe better, then by himself he started to spit the sludge and gradually he got better.

After an hour he was breathing really good and started swimming lively! :%) The salt was a big relief! Im sure he'll be sleeping fine and calm today *

Now..... He was spitting some stringy white slime, and the head had others hanging... The stupid slime was blocking the gills and that's why he was suffocated.

So, what could it be... Would those red patches at the scales might be from the fungus? or some infection trying to attack the weak immune system? The white dots at gill openings are completly white and are almost gone by now.

....... Cory you deserve a

If it is not too late, it is least stressful to the fish, if you take 10 gallons of water, or 7-8 for that matter, from the 55 gallon, then transfer the fish. No temp change, and no chemistry changes. Actually, 5 gallons would be better if you suspect high nitrates.

The only problem with the 10 gallons is that the nitrates will rise quickly with a goldie in there.

You didn't mention how many you had in the 55 and how big they all are, including the sick one. I was hoping to gage the nitrates. I know with 2 3.5 inch goldfish in my 36 gallon, I can barely keep the nitrates below 40ppm with weekly 30-40% water changes. The same would be true of 3 goldfish of the same size in a 55. If there are more than 3 fish in that 55 and if they are more like 4-5 inches long, then you likely have very high nitrates on that 2 week water change schedule.

Watch water quality in the 10 gallon carefully. This little guy doesn't need ammonia and nitrite. If you feel you need to do a partial water change on the 10, do so with 50% changes so you'll know to add back in half the salt that you have in there at any given time. The key is to NOT allow the water temp in the tank to change more than 1C in the process. They can handle large water changes quite well if temp issue is respected. I've actually been doing two changes on the weekends, each about 30-40%. I do one in the morning and one at night or one Saturday and one Sunday. I need to get my guys in a bigger tank. Water changes are really the only thing you can do to curb nitrates with these guys. Set a target like 40ppm and do as many changes as required to keep it below that target. I like to get it back down to about 10ppm or less.

Hey - let us know how he does.

I will tell you that "painted" medicated food is not nearly as good as gelatin based. The food easily melts off, even if it is painted on with egg white or oil (and oil is not good to use as it gets in the water, making a film).

Watch your other fish. If costia or another parasite is involved, the entire tank should undergo a 0.3% salt treatment. That is why I didn't suggest quarantine. But, quarantine is usually best.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Mar-2005 18:30

Thanks a LOT Cory_Di... I've got on my hands Tetracyline, and of course acriflavine that I used when I had finrot problems. I have done medicated food (withouth gelatin) that have worked well. Just adding some water drops to the food balls and moving those to pick the tetraciline, then wainting until they dry and thats it.

I'll have him in a 10g quarantine tank until he picks up and the rest of the fishes will have medicated food.

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As a side note, Im very grateful with people like you Cory and other that are this helpful. I really appreciate that, for taking part on saving our fishes.
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I'll post tomorrow after quarantining the fish, medicated food and acriflavine on the water.

It's up to you if you want to do this. However, it is easy enough to make and keep in the fridge/freezer in case it is needed. But, if you should see the fish needs it, then go to make it, precious time is being lost.

Knox Gelatin is simply a jello/gelatin that has no flavor. Tetracycline and heat do not mix, so I have edited this recipe to allow the gelatin to cool for 30 minutes before adding the other ingredients. You can substitute any fish foods for foods that you already have.

If you ever come to the US for any reason, you may want to pick up some of the new Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food and their Anti-Parasite Medicated Food.

[hr width='40%']
Medicated Food Recipe
1-tablet Tetracycline tablets ground into a fine powder.
1-tsp. of ground flake food (grind until it reaches powder form)
2-tablets of Nutrafin Spirulina Tablets (grind into a powder)
1/4-tsp. ground freeze dried bloodworms (approximately 1 tsp. before grinding)
1-envelope Knox Gelatine for Recipes (unflavored)
1-cup dechlorinated water

Bring water to a boil and and add Knox Gelatin. Let cool for 30 minutes. Add remaining ingredients, cover and place in refrigerator for 1 hour. After one hour take food out and stir thoroughly. Place back in refrigerator to allow to set. Once food is set freeze half of it. The other half put on a clean well-rinsed plate and mash with fork. Feed fish twice a day what they can eat. (Caution: Food will sink to the bottom right away. If not eaten within 30 minutes take remaining food out.)
Any of the ingredients may be replaced to make suitable for other types of fish. If used as is, it is more suited for omnivores.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Mar-2005 17:25

Goldfish are fine at 75F, according to experts Richard E. Hess and Dr. Erik Johnson, co-authors of the outstanding book, Fancy Goldfish. In fact, the book recommends low to mid 70's for goldfish because it is a temperature that is optimum for beneficial bacteria required to deal with a high waste load, and because of metabolic reasons they cite. I highly recommend this book for anyone keeping goldfish. It covers general housing and care issues, breeding and has a huge section on health care and surgery.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0834804484/qid=1110408211/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6821247-8375161?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Sharpix - hard to see the pics, but are the bumps in the gill plate pink? Scroll down part way on this page until you see a picture of a goldfish with bumps on the gills. Is this what the bumps look like on the gill plate or is it pink and inflammed? If it looks like the picture in the page, then those are simply breeding tubercles that come and go with breeding season. They are natural and often confused with ich.

I'm not liking what I see in the pics. I would immediately get that tank started on a 0.3% salt solution as described above, IF there are no scaleless or sensitive fish in the tank. If you have pet snails, I'm not sure how well they tolerate salt.

The first step in treating suspected parasites/protozoans in goldfish is a 0.3% salt solution. Costia that is salt resistant must be treated with formalin. Copper, malachite, etc. are not useful for this. Salt can not only kill the parasites, if they are not salt resistant, but can hinder infection. DO NOT WAIT!!!. That poor fish needs electrolytes, especially if he is exhausted enough to lay on the gravel. I'm concerned that what you are seeing is a potential costia infection. Doc Johnson, in his book, says that any fish exhausted enough to lay on the tank bottom, provided it is not SBD, likely has a costia infestation. Without microscopy, we can only guess.

Assuming there is a parasite/protozoan involved, it is likely the fish will experience several things aside from the parasite itself. This includes external infections and in worst case, an internal infection. We can address the external infection to some extent with salt. However, I would suggest the Acriflavine as it is effective against columnaris, as well as being anti-protozoan. Don't mix copper with this stuff, or other meds.

However, the larger concern is internal infection. I would try to make a medicated food, if you can at least find tetracycline. Any antibiotic you can find at all to mix with food, let us know what it is and I'll post a recipe you can make with gelatin. In fact, I will add a second post with the recipe so you can use it at any time. IMHO, preventing the internal infection is easier than curing it. Once it goes into the bloodstream, things go downhill fast and you will see the fish hemorrhaging with streaks and blood pools within hours or a day of death. Oxytetracycline, terramycin, or a blend of sulfas/nitrofurazone are often used in foods here.

Another question from the picture....are there unusual red spots at the base of the fins, that are not ordinarily there? That would concern me as being early signs of an internal infection - possibly your only opportunity to nail it with medicated food.

Sharpix - how many fish are in this tank and how big are they. Are they all goldfish?

If you have one goldfish in a 55 and do 30% changes every two weeks, then nitrates may be fine. Typically, you would see green algae in a high nitrate tank, provided there is light. Brown algae often grows in new tanks where there is not much nitrate, but it also grows in low light tanks. And, it grows in tanks with an abundance of silicate, which comes from overfeeding.

Before doing the salt treatment, if you have a python, I would recommend two water changes about 2 hours apart, each about 25-30%, then add the first dose of 0.1% salt solution. If water changes are done with buckets, then at least get one more 30% water change done.

Just to clarify that 1 US teaspoon = approximately 5 ml. So you would put in an equivalent to 5 x 55 US teaspoons. I used an online calculator which converts that to approximately 1 US cup of salt for a 55 gallon tank and it is almost = to 1 metric cup. Predissolve that much every 12 hours and add it to the tank. You can dribble it in over several hours if needed.

I think you'll see the goldie pick up a little after the first dose.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Mar-2005 17:28

Wait, why was your temperature that high? Goldfish should be in cold water.

Red veins along the tail tend to mean water quality-- red, bloody looking streaks could be an illness like septicemia.

Definitely lower your temperature! Slowly, though. Goldfish are coldwater fish, not tropical! Their water should be -below- 75 degrees. Even if the fish had ich the temperature treatment wouldn't be a good idea for him.

I can't help you much otherwise, since I haven't had goldfish since I was little and kept them in goldfish bowls.

Last edited by Mogmog at 09-Mar-2005 16:21

This is what Im talking about, check this photos...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Sharpix/SickTorpedo2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Sharpix/SickTorpedo1.jpg

Sorry for the quality, those are phone cam photos...

The white dots are very well defined, definitely its not ich.


I do a 30% water change every 15 days. As for the tank, the water has been recently changed 30%, but i suspect the nitrates were high because brown algae appeared constantly 7 days after a water change. I don't have any test kits yet, but im almost sure the trigger was high nitrates because some overfeeding.

This problem has been developing from three weeks ago with the 3 white bumps at lateral line scales, right at the marks. Those are of the size of a needle ball tip (those that have plastic tip). The bumps are just in the tubercules and near the eye in the soft tissue.

Most medications such as Maracyn and things like that are not available. There are acriflavin, copper sulphate, malachite green, methylene blue and some capsules that are broad spectrum. Human medications such as chloromycetin and penicilin-based have been used succesfully against finrot... Other might be useful but unless im sure what is the problem, i shouldn't take too aggressive action.


He is 3 years old and its just the first fish I was given. I had lots of problems when i started, and were 2 years with no problems. The tank is 55g, with fluval 304 and a powerhead with AC quickfilter

The temperature is raised but Im concerned about the rapid breathing... should i lower the temperature slowly until 75°F and quarantine the fish with daily water changes and salt baths only?

Last edited by Sharpix at 09-Mar-2005 15:08

Hey Sharpix!

Bumps on the gill plate are a normal sign of a male who has come into his breeding season. They are called tubercles.

Whiteness in the wen - the soft tissue is a normal sign of wen growth, but should be watched to ensure it is not infection.

The redness around the scales and the red streaks in the tail are more of a concern, not that all of it isn't somehow possibly related.

Now, before dosing any medications, water quality must be really good. This means zero ammonia, nitrite and nitrates under 40ppm and preferrably for a sick fish, less than 20ppm. The last part is important as goldfish are often subjected to very high nitrates which can dilate blood vessels and give that veiny appearance in the tail. It appears to be an infection, when in reality it is high nitrates. High nitrates can cause the immune system to decline. I'm leary to suggest an antibiotic at all until we see what those nitrates are.

Another concern is a costia infection, if parameters are as described above. Costia is big in goldfish and some strains are salt resistant. Your guy is not doing well and at the very least, he would be in a 0.3% salt solution, if you have no scaleless fish or other fish in the tank with him. Otherwise, he may need to go into quarantine. 0.3% is divided into three 0.1% solutions, each dosed 12 hours apart. This is easy to do as 0.1% is equal to 1 teaspoon per gallon. It must be predissolved before being added and should be a freshwater aquarium salt, not a table salt with lots of additives. If it is costia or another parasite, the 0.3% solution can kill it off in many cases. The salt alone will probably help your goldie lift off the gravel as it replaces electrolytes lost through open skin.

If it is an infection, he will likely need some kind of medicated food, if at all possible. We can type you out a recipe if you have none available in Mexico. Waterborne antibiotics are ok, but don't get absorbed nearly as well. If you can find any kind of antibiotic with something like nitrofurazone in it, that would be your best bet. We have brands like Furan-2, Nitrofura-G, Fungus Eliminator, Furacyn that all have this. It is easily absorbed into the blood stream. However, if that is not available, use what you can.

I finished the Furan2 4-day treatment. The salt was removed before the treatment because some raised scales were frightening me to be Dropsy, but at the end of the treatment those got completly fine. Then, 2 days after the treatment, a red patch raising the scales at the tail was appearing.

Here are the pictures: (the head has some red spots because he hits things because his blocked vision, nothing to worry)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Sharpix/TorpedoSickAgain1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Sharpix/TorpedoSickAgain2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Sharpix/TorpedoSickAgain3.jpg

Even the aquarium guy that sells Furan2 watched the photos and told me it was Dropsy... I almost yelled at him like 15 times "The scales were brought back to normal state, 99% of the time this doesn't happens with Dropsy"

What do you think it is? Im 95% sure that is costia but its better to have a second opinion from somebody moooooore experienced (like you!)

The treatment apparently cured the gill slime problem since there are no more slime strings floating around and the smaller goldfish its actually cured and perfectly fine -calm breathing and perfect fins and scales-

Everybody is going to the 55g again except the big Goldfish. The bleaching was complete sucess with just some rocks remaining to be 'microwaven'

The water was changed when needed, but it seems something is STILL messing with my fish. I restarted the use of antibiotic medicated food the way you suggested.

Im only waiting to allow some rest between medications with pristine water conditions and if the tail problem gets back, i could at last be happy. If not, a water medication with local medicine dabs would be my best bet.

Whats your opinion on this?... Im like "Noooooowwww whaaaaaaat!"

Last edited by Sharpix at 22-Mar-2005 23:28

Well, have fun at the wedding

I'm still convinced that boy has a costia infection or similar in the gills. Do you have him at 0.3% salt solution or have you brought it down?

He looks very good but the breathing remains somewhat faster than normal. I'm at the 3rd day of the treatment. Everybody else, including the other goldfish are doing fine -if not Perfect!-

My permanent concern is the big goldfish eyes are blocked and he hits things sometimes with reddening of parts of the head protrusion. I'd like him to have a surgery to unblock the eyes but if that ever happens, it will be when perfectly fine and in the summer when the tank is at 80°F. (and my house is not known to be hot)

At least, for now he's doing well, eating better and its way more active than anyone else.

There is some family coming to my house this weekend, because one of my sisters is getting married. Too bad the main tank would be clean -of diseases and fish-... the quarantine tank doesn't look any attactive

Im switching everybody to the 55g 'till monday. Im thinking in adding two days more to the 4-day-treatment but at 50% dose.

]:| I dont want any more troubles for now I'll keep you updated, perhaps in 2 of three days more, until I recover from my sister's party

2 year old Cycle? And, it's not the New and Improved?

Not , at least imho. Sorry. I have several bacterial starters I've been testing and most of them expire in one year, some even less, like BioSpira. It is good for so many months (I think 6) sitting at room temp (classified as 70F or so, if I recall), and up to 1 year in the fridge.

I have found that NO bacterial starter can fully keep ammonia and nitrites down, even on a tank that is 1/4 max stocking level (think one 3 inch goldfish in a 55 gal). Bacterial starters work best with low fish loads that are gradually increased, not all dumped into the tank at the same time at full load. I found BioSpira to control ammonia and nitrite to 0.25 or less with about 1/4-1/3 stocking level and nitrates somewhat visible within 3-4 days and fully robust within 6-9 days. I've not seen this with N&I Cycle, nor with Stress Zyme. I think you can expect to see 3+ppm of ammonia within a few days and at least 3+ nitrite a few days later with a fully stocked tank.

The seeding you get is hopefully a really good handful of surface gravel somehow stuffed into the filter media itself. Hopefully, you can get seeded filter media from your friend, if he has had no parasites. I have placed surface gravel in biobags, corner filters, and I have cut open cartridges with activated carbon and stuffed the seeded gravel in there. with all of this, you can probably expect around 0.25-0.5ppm (and I'm guessing here). I hope you'll post your numbers. Please check daily because it is easy to "assume" all is well, until fish start showing signs of stress 5-10 days into the process.

Good luck Sharpix. I hope all goes well. . How is the sick goldie?

I will get some cycle along with colonized filter media. Im hesitant about going to a LFS considering they deal with lots of diseases in every tank. Basically that's what i should avoid.

Im building a natural rock background. Im planning to install it in the outside of the tank and flooded with water SEPARATED from the main tank. Certainly i want to upgrade my tank to 90g, same 4' width and depth 2' but from thickness of 1' to 1 2/3'. That would help to the big goldfish to crash less with the surroundings because his eyes are blocked with the same kind of tissue of the head protrusion -not rare for an Oranda-.

To avoid the NTS syndrome, frequent water changes will lower any spikes... my garden will thank me a lot for it and i'll be asking for media with bacteria to a friend that received 3 BIG black angels from mine a year ago.

By the way, what changes does Cycle has in the label to recognize the New Improved Cycle? Is there any difference or it looks the same? My last bottle of Cycle was purchased 2 years ago

You are basically starting a new tank. How are you going to address new tank syndrome with all the fish.

Glad he seems to be doing better.

UPDATE: Going halfway medication so far, everybody seem fine but the breathing of the big goldfish has gotten slower but not as normal as it should be. The gills might be in the healing process, so im not very worried.

The 55 is bleached, wood ornaments were removed and then they'll be boiled. Rocks will be cooked on the microwave oven hope they taste better next time

So far, so good. I'll be updating when things get normal /:'

Im in Mexico, really! That's why some things are not as easy to find. For example, a Fluval 304 like mine is not a common thing on aquariums. Common people doesn't even buy hang-on filters. Sometimes a powerhead with a quickfilter its enough for them.... and I find really amazing how some fishes get old in those conditions. One of the friends of my dad, had a one-tailed goldfish grown in a 15 gal being feed with rotten flake food -somebody just gave him like 15 pounds of it- and the Goldfish got 8 years old until Dropsy took in


There are no characins in the tank, just three gouramies, an angelfish and the two cassiatus auratus The gravel in the big tank has white things, debris, and stuff i'd not want to have it in the future.

I have heard good thins about Furan-2. The red patches are almost cured, the breathing is what im concerned of. Today all fish were introduced in the quarantine tank. Im just concerned that the 4 day period of the treatment could not be enough... Im SERIOUSLY thinking in add 2 days more at 50% dose to ensure a goooooooood kill of the disease.

Then, when the 55 is restarted, im using new ceramics, the current has lots of slime that was appearing about 4 or 5 months ago?!?!?! Cycle will help the process, with normal feeding this time, and 4-day 20% water changes to avoid spikes in ammonia and nitrite.

Anyway, Im happy that the desperate situation I was has turned out well. Nobody is resting more on the bottom of the tank, and im much calmer than before

Nice tank.

The only concern I have is that you'll be killing off good bacteria by nuking the tank. With that bioload and recent illness, the last thing anyone in that tank needs is exposure to any ammonia or nitrite. Without testers, you are going to be making assumptions that everything is ok, when in fact, it may not be. Add to that the antibiotic.

The Furan-2 is very good, but scaleless fish and certain characins may have difficulties with it. I have treated cories with full strength furacyn (furazolidone) without a issue, but was afraid to use full strength furan 2. The methyl blue can stain.

Just so I understand, are you really in Mexico or are you in the US, just displaying a Mexican flag as a matter of nationality?