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Perhaps it was a matter of trying to find those medications. I found Furan and furan-2. My choice was Furan-2. Look at this, you might already know those:

http://www.petco.com/product_info.asp?web=0&tab=3&SKU=1716300870&cm_ven=nik&cm_cat=82&cm_pla=1716300870&cm_ite=2536958

Each Furan-2 capsule contains 60 mg. nitrofurazone, 25 mg. furazolidone, and 2 mg. methylene blue tryhydrate.

It cures a wide variety of gram-positive and gram-negative bacterial diseases, including gill disease, mouth fungus, furunculosis (aeromonas), black molly disease (columnaris), fin and tail rot, and dropsy.

I removed the salt because he was acting sloooow and used a powerhead to filter the white slime... I was floating everywhere.

Im in a low risk moment, the fishes are not resting in the gravel so, when i match the QT and the main tank temperature i´ll be switching every fish to the QT. Next, dissasembly and cleaning of gravel, filter, wood, plastic plants, etc.

Photos of my 55gal and fishes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Sharpix/AquariumStand1.jpg

And Bib, the younger Goldfish. His body is somewhat bigger than a tennis ball.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/Sharpix/Fishes/BibFish.jpg

Im in the right way now. Im completly sure!

I'll take a look at them, but for now, my island seen in the South Pacific has to stay

Walmart is in Mexico? Shows you how much I know

Sharpix - do you have any vets around that you could get a scraping to. All you would have to do is to get a slide and coverslip. Then, use the coverslip to gently scrape just inside the gills and place the slip over the slide. You could then rush this to a vet for analysis under their microscope. What you are looking for would have to be checked at 400x, at least.

http://www.ntlabs.co.uk/microscope_diagnosis.htm

Scroll through that link above and you'll see a description. I'm not convinced the fish doesn't have a costia or trichodina infection, possibly prompting a gill fungus infection. Fungus often follows parasites, whether it is true fungus or whether it is columnaris or another bacteria. They go hand in hand, very often. A microscopic examination of the slime straight out of the gills is your best bet. Should it be confirmed, you either need to increase the salt to 0.6% to see if it kills it, or possibly up to that risky 0.9%, if you don't have access to formalin. Goldfish are tolerant of 0.9%, but you still have to watch.

Here is another good site, if you can get your hands on a microscope or someone with one:

http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/FishHealth/FlashDance.htm

Last edited by Cory_Di at 14-Mar-2005 10:01

After todays HEAVY research, im almost sure its a fungus outbreak. Acriflavin has not been very useful, the big goldfish its resting on the bottom with casual jumps for searching food/boredom. As for giving any parameters, i don;t have any tests. Water changes have been every 2 days so ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are no problems... Anyway, im thinking after this i'll nuke the fishtank to begin the cycle and left any problem traces away.

Because the slime coming out of the gills with the spams and the uncapability of fixing the breathing aspect of the disease with acriflavin (bacteria) and copper (parasites) administered, Im 90% sure im dealing with fungus.

The red scales are healed, so perhaps the salt was responsible of that success. But, the slime keeps coming -altough slowly - from the sick goldfish.

Too bad at the time im writing this is sunday, and our local walmart hasn't something useful for aquariums.

Costia is said to be microscopic with no traceable evidence unless using a microscope. Weird thing is that 3 gouramies and the angelfish are breathing PERFECT.

After important water changes, i'll be treating the tank against fungus with the help of salt. Oh, im very grateful with you, thanks again Cory.

If you like Goldfish, I've got 2 very nice wallpapers of Torpedo and Bib, up to 1600x1200 of resolution. If you want those, write your email here and your desktop resolution.

I've looked carefully through my books and continue to go back to the very detailed one I've cited before. This time, I'll include two articles in their entirety. I could find nothing else similar.

Here's what Dr. Erik Johnson says in his book Fancy Goldfish, coauthored with Richard E. Hess (see book above in link I provided):

Costia Necatrix (some oder texts refer to this organism as Ichtyobodo necatrix) is one of the most serious pathogens of Goldfish. Costia is very prevalent. Outbreaks of Costia occur most commonly in spring, especially in fish kept outdoors. The organism is very tiny and defies amateur microscopy. Its effects on the gills is profound and an outbreak usually causes losses unless the hobbyist indentifies the cause quickly and proceeds with treatment just as swiftly.

Fish infected with Costia develop slimy patches about the head and gill covers. Some fish die suddenly without any external symptoms. In other cases, the fish gasp desperately for oxygen as the organism destroys their gills.

Costia is extremely miniscule and will evade detection at magnifying powers less than 300x. Under microscopes of that power and higher, you will see a translucent, colorless, comma-shaped organism that is rapidly motile (they swim like crazy) in a corkscrew fashion. In most cases, a biospy of the gill or one of the white, mucus-laden areas of teh fish will reveal swarms of thousands or millions of individuals.

Costia is a quick killer, but can also be carried through the summer by healthy fish that are somehow able to carry the parasite without expiring. Costia can resist drying, which means that nets and other equipment that were previously in contact with teh infected fish can carry teh pathogen even if they are now dry.

The most commendable remedy for Costia Necatrix is salt. A concentration of 0.3% is usually effective, but there is a new strain of Costia that may be resistnat to this salt level and even survives a salinity concentration of 0.6% or higher. In these cases, we must resort to formalin. For the treatment of Costia, use formalin at 25-30ppm for two hours, followed by a water change ranging from 50-95%. This is repeated daily for four to five treatments.

And, you mentione him laying on the bottom. Read on from the same book; different section:

SYMPTOM: SITTING ON BOTTOM

Causes: Goldfish that rest on the bottom of the tank can be divided into two categories, each requireing different treatment. The first category includes fish that have to struggle to swim to mid-water or to the surface. They have a swim bladder problem, sometimes due to bacterial infection and sometimes due to defects in the swim bladder (Necropsies show that some of these fish have water in the air sac instead of air).

The second category is fish that swim fine when disturbed. These fish usually carry a massive fluke or Costia burden and are being weakened by the parasites. They rest on the bottom, which further assists the parasites in proliferating on the skin and gills, and the fish eventually dies.

Electrocution can cause this symptom as well.

Solutions: Check for bacterial infection and parasites and treat as necessary. Also check for electrical current in your system.

I find that last one interesting given your broken heater. I'm assuming it has not run in the tank in such a way as to possibly cause mild electrocution.
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I have a few thoughts on possibilities, in light of this information:

A) It is salt resistant costia (regardless of where you purchased them as it has begun to sweep around the US and Canada based on what I read in other websites).

B) It is flukes. If so, there are several remedies suggested in the book:

-Potassium Permangenate (very complex/dangerous procedure if not performed accurately and much too long to type out unless you actually have the stuff and want to use it)

-Droncit (brand name for cat/dog dewormer praziquantel) sold in US for fish under the name Prazi-Pro, also included in Parasite Clear Tank Buddies, and in the new Anti-Parasite medicated food by Jungle. Prazi is highly effective and very safe.

-Fluke Tabs (also a specific procedure). This was the leading treatment before Praziquantel became so easily available.

-Formalin

The book also goes on to say that Copper, chloramine T, and acriflavine have been used with success.

Note that many of these things cannot be mixed. So, you need to pick one and go with it, then do a series of water changes (in the case of copper, it is the only way to fully remove it since carbon does not fully eliminate it). Some conditioners will deactivate copper, but several water changes (heavy) are the surest way without a copper tester. Tank may no longer be suitable for inverts once copper is used (if you keep snails or shrimp) unless you run something to continously pull copper out of the gravel bed, like our cuprisorb or polyfilter.

C) Gills infected from infestation, possibly already killed by salt??? Antibiotics would be required.

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This is the best I can offer for now, Sharpix. Keep us updated on what you figure.

Just as a sense check can you please give us Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH and temp readings, if you were able to get them?

Last edited by Cory_Di at 13-Mar-2005 17:33

Well... I haven't found the problem yet, the disease we are trying to get rid of its no costia. The scales of the bigger goldfish have cleared. His breathing is good, just a little faster than the normal rate.

The real problem are some kind of white slime that eventually gets in the water when the goldfish (both) have spasms when they breathe. The thing looks like white slimy strings.

For example, today the smaller goldfish was resting at the bottom of the big tank. One of his gills wasn't opening when breathing, but after some light knocks on the glass -I do that for calling the guys for feeding- he went up and with a deep breathing he spitted the white thing. It comes out of the gills.

The salt helped both goldfish on preventing diseases but the problems is the white thing. If this can help, sometimes there is a white gunk coming out of the canister hoses just when I flex them after a filter cleaning, but that white gunk its very different.

What could it be, fungus or gill flukes? I've been trying to find fluke photos but havent got any luck. Any advice on this? Im sorry to ask too much but even though im the kind of scrientific guy who does research when something interests me, this time i don't have success... and im good at finding files and things with goggles and yahoos...

The key with salt and the other fish is to watch them. You don't have to put the entire 0.1% solution in all at once. Spread it out over several hours if you are home. The 0.3% does not have to be added every 12 hours. It can be daily or stretched out longer. Watch your fish.

Good luck with the heater. You're braver than I am and much more handy apparently

UPDATE: The youger goldfish at the main tank is showing little signs of the same stuff, im believing its costia. I'll treat both tanks separately, gradually dosing the salt in .1 increments in the biggest.

The sick goldfish its in calm but breathing well. At 5pm im doing a 50 water change. Replacing Acriflavin and salt as needed.

-----> The salt kind of 'grabs' the dissolved tetracilin powder and it ends in bubbles at the top of the tank. Its not very useful there i think. Im adding the antibiotic in the food as you suggested.

As for the temperature in the main tank, its there becase the main heater glass broke when i was doing a water change. I was thinking 'unplug it, cause it might broke'... and you know what happened then.. ] Im using a 50w heater for the big goldfish in quarantine.

Im in the process of fixing the big 250w heater. I bought 2 chemical test tubes (pyrex glass) and with a Dremel I cut the lower part of one, because the lenght of it is about two tubes. Then, im glueing those with hi-temp silicone and a 1.5" long aluminum tube around the joint. I'll left in water with heat to make it cure quicker and let it leech any chemical out.

When the summer gets in, the temp in any tank gets to 82°F, remains there even with all the windows opened. ]:| not much i can do. Perhaps the goldfish are used to that. Even the water at local lakes is very warm, at the point that some 10" 'Tilapia' hang around showing the back above the water when there's not much wind.


I'll update tomorrow. Thank you again for your tremendous support.

- the whole fishing aspect is funny. I fish, but haven't been able to bring myself since I see what stress can do to a fish. I liked catch and release because I didn't like eating much that I could catch around here. I'm a trout and salmon eater and there's not much of that in my area. But, I wonder what happened to many of the fish I caught and released after they were so deeply stressed. I haven't been able to bring myself to pitch out a line just for the sake of "fun" at the expense of some defenseless creature. If I was going to eat it, that would be a different story. Using what we catch is ok, but I'm changing my feelings on catch & release.

I'm so glad your fish are doing well. The tricky thing with salt is to be aware that goldfish and koi are very tolerant of high levels of salt. Not so with scaleless fish and even some other, non-scaleless fish. The key is to dose it incrementally - preferrably over days. When scaleless fish are involved, those increments would be no greater than 0.05% and rather than dumping that solution in all at once, I would spread it out over the course of the day.

Many fish can tolerate things provided it comes so gradual they don't notice it. Case in point is temp. A fish that normally lives in a 78F tank can handle a tank at 72F. But, if you drop that temp in one day, you'll like end up with ich. Drop it gradually over 4-5 days and they won't notice. Ditto with pH or salt.

Is that 67F a true temp or a mistake? Seems quite cold for some of the other trops. Is there a heater in there? Typically, we don't mix goldfish and trops as they have different needs and goldies are much bigger waste producers. According to goldfish experts Dr. Erik Johnson and Richard Hess, goldfish should be kept at low to mid 70's because it is the ideal temp range for beneficial bacteria to handle all the waste. They also state that it is optimal for goldfish metabolism.

I've asked before - is it possible for you to get this book in Mexico? It details things like salt treatments, among many other handy things, in addition to general goldfish care.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0834804484/qid=1110550106/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6821247-8375161?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Last edited by Cory_Di at 11-Mar-2005 08:10

UPDATE:

The Goldfish its been doing well. There are few white strings floating but that tells me those are being thrown from his mouth and skin. Some of the red scales are being healed and Im expecting to look them almost cleared perhaps in a day more. I'll be doing a 50% water change every two days , replacing the part of Acriflavin and salt im removing in the process. I will keep him there about a 7 days and another 3 for removing the salt to normal levels.

The 55g is been doing fine. Im doing a 40% water change to remove some of the copper sulphate i added. It should be unactive by now. The fishes in the 55 look healthy with no signs of any infection. Its at 67°F right now and everybody seem to be calm.

Perhaps the best way to be sure everything will be fine, its using salt in the big tank, too. I did some research at koivet.com and to say the least, im very impressed with the healing power of it and the prevention methods against some important diseases.

....... Im feeling like there's a never ending in learning about fishes. Even though I started fishing since I was 10 (now im 27) without any aquarium, the weird part comes from this lessons that have proved very useful when picking the best moments to go out to fish, their metabolism, and such...

The worst part is the bad feeling I've got when I capture a fish and some have to be sacrificed with a big remorse of causing death to the animal... One day I care a fish, other day I fish them, ending as meal. Pretty ironic, isn't it?

I'll be updating in one or two days.

Last edited by Sharpix at 11-Mar-2005 01:57

Well, since you have other fish in the tank, you'll have to watch them individually. I don't know how well the other species will do on 0.3%. I know those fish can tolerate salt, but I just don't know how much. The key when you are not sure, is to proceed slowly - say less than 0.1% daily, like 0.05%. Each day you watch for signs of stress and be prepared to do a partial water change. Doing less than 0.3% may not kill the parasite in the tank and on other fish, and may even lead to resistance to salt.

My intent with the 55 was to kill off any parasites within the tank, and on other inhabitants.

Glad he's looking better. Maybe that antibiotic food won't be necessary if the salt has done that much good for him.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 10-Mar-2005 07:17

All fish i've got: Two fantail goldfish -one mature, other 1.5 years old-, one peaceful Angelfish, two dwarf gouramies and a pearl gourami. Nothing else.

Now, in the quarantine tank is the mature goldfish "Torpedo", being medicated. He seems to be ok by now (11:55 pm) but im removing the 30% of the water by dilution, taking out every time 3/4 of gallon and replacing with same temperature water. I don't think the salt would be a problem.

He is very aware and lively by now. The scales don't look rough, some are just red but not like scratched or bleeding blood vessels.

As for the 55g, what should I do... to switch the inhabitants to the 25g about 3 days until I clean the big tank or medicate the big tank too? I read about salt resistant costia... I don't think that'll be a problem since all the fishes are locally breed (contry-wise)

Too bad the fish has to stand my stupidity but im learning fast i think.

Last edited by Sharpix at 10-Mar-2005 00:15

Oh no! You dosed the entire 0.3% in one shot? Please watch him or do a partial water change to dilute it. That much salt at once could cause osmotic shock. It is suppose to be dosed in 0.1% solutions 12 hours apart.

Sharpix - I think with your description of mucous shedding from the gills, we nailed it as a Costia infestation, or similar (Trichodina, Chilonodella, etc.). One of the things this causes is excess slime, hence, the nickname - slime-disease. If the infestation is in the gills, the slime covers the gills, thus suffocating the fish.

By putting him in the 0.3% solution you may have killed off the parasite already and allowed him to shed it.

However, I'm concerned for him in such a heavy salt solution. Please watch him carefully and if he looks stressed, reduce it with a 50% water change, then boost your salt again in 12 hours by another 0.1%. This is one US teaspoon per gallon. We want to kill the parasite with the salt, not the fish

If he is ok after such a huge salt dosing, I would feed him some medicated food, however you choose to do it, to ensure any infection hasn't gone in. But once you begin with any antibiotic, you are committed to one week, otherwise a resistant strain of bacteria can develop.

I've seen some rough looking pictures of goldfish with advanced cases of costia and even the scales and fins can look rough, so maybe that is what you are seeing. Of course other pathogens can attack the damaged/dead tissue once parasites are involved.

Sharpix - please tell me what fish you have in the 55. If that fish has costia, and all you have is goldfish in the 55, then I would stronly encourage you to do the salt treatment on that tank at 0.1% daily for 3 days. You can do it every 12 hours to make the 0.3% or just span it over 3 days. I say this because obviously Costia or something similar is active in that tank. It's best that it is killed off now, before another fish has to deal with it.

However, not all fish can tolerate a 0.3% solution. That is why I keep asking for the stock list of the 55, including any inverts you may want to keep.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 09-Mar-2005 23:43