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[font color="#000080"]Ok, so I lost Hope. She sure tried hard to recover though....:~ however, she was just too tired to keep on fighting. I still would like to know that the heck happened.... [/font]

[font color="#C00000"]1. I bought 20 fish (to be placed in 3 different tanks) for breeding purposes. 10 were large oranda pandas (4-5 inches) and 10 are small ranchus.

2. The idiot ]:| that sent them to me put everybody in one small bag w/no evidence of Bag-buddies, nor adequate insulation. ]

3. When I got the fish, they were almost all dead.

4. Before I passed out at what I saw, I separated them into the three tanks I had readied for them: all three tanks had been used with prior fish I recently (a few days) had sold. Their gravel and fake plants were still there, so I assumed the tanks were cycled. The fish that were there were very healthy.

5. I was sure I would see a bunch of dead fish by the next morning, but they seemed to have recovered once I put everybody in clean water!!

6. One fish, my daughter named her Hope, seemed to be a bit in trouble. I added salt (made tank to 0.3%) and added Melafix and Pimafix. I also fed them Medi-Koi just in case. Eventually, I saw some ich so I added Rid-Ich.

7. Hope developed fin rot . I kept on treating with the same and changed the water every other day (about 30%). I was afraid that the other fish had been exposed to whatever was bothering Hope, so I treated everybody.

8. Hope developed the "cottony appearance" of a true fungal infection. I started her on MarOxy, but it was too late. She passed away this morning.[/font]

[font color="#000080"]I know that her overcrowded conditions in the bag burnt her with the ammonia and left her immune system unable to cope with pathogens in the water (which under normal conditions, she probably would have fought them off with no problem). But... if the others recovered, why didn't she? I feel terrible I wasn't able to save her. I tried so hard...!! [/font]

[font color="#008000"]The other 55 gallon tank has 5 of the pandas. They looked good, except I've noticed two fish are rather quiet and hanging on the bottom of the tank tonight. They did eat though! I added the first dose of salt tonight (I need to add about 16 tablespoons x 3). What else can I do? I fed them Medi-Koi to them tonight and will probably keep them on that, right?? It's too dark right now to check the water parameters so I will do that tomorrow, but the water should be fine: I change my water every week (about 30%) at the very least - sometimes twice a week. [/font]

[font color="#BF791F"]Don't want to lose any more of these precious fish. They ARE beautiful, albeit, their shipping was soooo poorly done!! :#( And this guy was in business supposedly for over 10 years.... ]:| makes me crazy! ?
I'd like to slap him and make him lay in his own urine/ammonia for a whole day! ]:|

Somebody tell me: was there anything else I could have done?? Where did I mess up?? What could I have done differently??

Patty :#(

I don't think the chemical cocktail you have described would have done anyone but the chemical companies any good. If fish shows signs of illness, then my first instinct is to isolate them from the healthy fish. Yes, i've had fish develop finrot through stress from transportation and new tanks, nothing that involved 24hours of miss handling, but they where suceptible. The cure in my experience with mild finrot due to stress is regular water changes and making sure you do everything to keep the fish 'comfortable' - lots of hiding holes and no other fish to bother it, good water conditiohns and lots of airation.

The addition of salt for fin rot is, in my experience, an old 'wifes tail'. It does nothing once the finrot has started. It can help prevent it and ich in some fish species, but in general it's not necessary. As for the addition of Melafix, why?? It's not anti-bacterial, so it also would have done nothing. It works by irritating the fish's skin to increase slime coat production. That does not help fungal fin rot.

I think the key to treating this fish successfully might have been isolation with no treratment for a day or so, and then treatment if the fish survived or showed signs of the symptoms getting worse. It might also have been an example of "survival of the fitest" in that this fish was already unhealthy prior to shipping and so the whole episode was just to much. I certainly don't think that your 'reach for the bottles first' approach did anything to help. But, thats just my opinion.

[font color="#000080"]Thanks for your honesty. I tried to give her every bit of opportunity to make it. Live and learn...

Patty [/font]

You can't dwell on it Patty - you had your heart in the right place. But too much in the tank at once, can be a problem. That's not to say it caused the death - we'll never know.

I'll disagree on the salt because of the fact that Costia is a really big killer in the goldfish arena these days. A 0.3% solution can kill costia in incoming fish, but there is a salt resistant strain that requires a 0.6% solution. The problem is that breeders here and in asia are keeping their fish in a constant salt solution, which is unnecessary. It is one of few prophylactic treatments I believe in when recieving goldfish. Many parasites can be hindered with a 0.3% solution or higher and goldfish tolerate well, unlike others.

In some cases, the tail can shred, which may appear to be finrot, when in actuality its a Costia infection. It's been said that fish laying on the gravel, who do not have swim bladder disorder, are likely suffering from costia. I would subject any newcomer to at least a 0.3% salt solution, especially one with symptoms. The salt not only combats the parasite, but replaces lost electrolytes brought on by stress and wounds. In extreme cases, I'd go up to 0.6%.

Melafix and Pimafix - used as directed, should not cause an issue. I have used them on many occassions when fish have been netted or when fish have injuries from fighting and have never experienced an issue.

Patty, here is something very interesting on stress in fish. I hope you will see that the real culprit is the one who shipped them in an unacceptable manner. Once a fish is stressed to that level, some just can't recover and the immune system just drops too low. All sorts of things can happen at that point.

I hope you have contacted the person who sent them to provide feedback. He needs to know what happened.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/General%20Freshwater/55519.html

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Mar-2005 22:15

[font color="#000080"]Oh yes. I most definitely told him what happened and how his method was so very wrong. His reply was simply "So sorry-so sad, I guess I'll replace your fish...". Which irked me, because of course I cared that I lost my money on the fish, but it was more than that! These fish were alive! We can't just play carelessly with live creatures. They are more than objects that can make money for some people. That's just my personal belief, anyway! He later told me that he would send me free fish, but that I had to pay for shipping ($44.90). I told him where to put his shipping charges, and how to put it and how many times. I told him I would tell everybody in my circle (since I am a goldfish breeder) about his poor business manners and he backed off and gave me a refund. IT WAS NEVER ABOUT THE MONEY. I just wanted him to give a darn about his fish!

Incidentally, I don't make money on the fish I sell. I do it for the fun of it. You know how expensive they can be (maintenance, foods, medications.... you name it!). It's a challenge to see them grow from itty-bitty little 1/4 of an inch string with big eyes, into 10+ inch beautiful creatures...

sheesh.... the nerve of some people!!

Patty[/font]

I know exactly how you feel. I've had some terribly shipped fish too-- and bad feedback. It's so annoying... they're just as alive as anything else. People think that because they're so far from human, it's okay to abuse them. They think "they're just fish."
You sound like you have real compassion for them, and that you really care. I sympathize, and it's good you know about the chemical thing now. I used to dump in chemicals at the first sign of trouble, too.
How are the other goldies doing, though?

[font color="#BF791F"]The other goldies? So far so good. I cleaned everybody's water and just tried salt. I really believe Diane's approach is the best: salt treatments are natural and effective. My plants may not like it, but so far they are still alive! I won't touch the water for another couple of days just to give everybody time to heal/adjust. They are beautiful fish!! Pandas are just breathtaking...! I won't sell anybody until I stabilize everybody for at least three months. Then, I'll only sell their offsrping. Can't wait to see what we get!

Yes, fish are beautiful creatures and they ARE alive: they feel pain and probably feel "good" when they are healthy. I am a goldfish breeder and I sweat it every time I ship my fish out of town. I don't rest easy until I know they've made it alive and well. I am very careful on how I ship them. Once the Post Office lost my box with a goldfish in it. It was found 9 days later and my goldfish was alive and well.... that goes to show ya how good careful shipping can really make a difference.

Thanks for your comments!

Patty[/font]

the thing you have to rememebr is that fish are like people, and all living things. Why can some people recover from meningitis given the correct treatment, and others fail to respond and die? Why do some people just get a cold one winter, others develop bronchitis and pneumonia?

genetics, past history, an undetectable weakness, who knows..


It's the same with fish. Some of them we'll never save, no matter how hard we try. And we'll never know why.

-------------------------------------------------
I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

Excellent point, Tiny.

I always laugh when people say that all fish in a tank of a particular species should react to ammonia or nitrite. When I first started in the hobby, I was cycling my tank the old fashioned way - with fish - specifically, white clouds. They are typically cycle hardy. Well, I was waiting a while for the nitrite phase and kept checking. Then one day when I hadn't checked, a lone female white cloud was swimming down through a column of bubbles. I knew, right then and there, my nitrite phase had begun. It wasn't until the nitrites had gone higher days later before the other white clouds started diving through the bubble column too. She was my "canary in the mine" and tipped me off to the nitrite phase. I lost none of my fish in the process, but would never cycle just with fish again.

I too believe all fish are individuals, much like we are.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 07-Mar-2005 16:59

This whole salt issue... i gues it polarises people. But, i'm inclined to think about it this way: Whats natural for my fish is where they originally evolved. So, if my fish is fresh water, then the concentrations of salt most hobbiests speak off is not natural. I understand how hard it is to replicate large ecosystems in one's house, and though i try my best, i'm sure i'm not a total success. Surely one can see that in preference to adding salt to a tank, you might concentrate more on cleanliness and water quality. I just don't understand how fish can survive in the wild with relatively low examples of some of the illnesses salt is used to treat, yet it's the first response in our tanks.

Just my 2c, and i certainly tryed salt when i started out with Cichlids... but i've found there isn't much improving my water quality wont cure. So, now i'm a member of the "church of healthy water", and religiously practice cleaning and water changes. Oh, and i recycle all of my water onto potplants in my garden, so nothing goes to waste And they love nitrates and posphates, so it's win win!!

[font color="#000080"]but you see..... I do weekly (if not bi-weekly) water changes in my tanks. I am a firm believer of pristine water conditions and yet that alone did not help this particular fish. Granted, her shipping conditions were horrible, but if all of the other fish recovered once they were put in my tanks, why didn't this one?? Ok so maybe she was ill prior to being shipped, who knows... I still believe in the wonders of salt treatment. I've lived by the ocean all my life and when I cut myself, I found that the salt in the ocean would make the cut heal faster than if I put neosporyn or anything else. Why? Maybe there's something else to the salt topic...

Thanks for your input. It's great that we can get together and chat.

Patty [/font]

Sorry to hear of your loss.

As Cory_Di said above, fish are individuals. And Tiny_Clanger's point above is apposite here too.

When I wrote the updated version of the Otocinclus article (which is now permanently in the Articles section of the board - Yay!) I wrote that even with the best TLC in the world from the aquarist, it is possible that some of the Otocinclus will die if they have already been stressed by bad holding and maintenance conditions at the wholesaler or retailer. Even ones kept in good conditions may keel over simply because of an undetected genetic weakness, or possibly some environmental trauma that affected the eggs, and attacked the dying individual more than the others. Hope may simply have been more inherently susceptible to going downhill rapidly under bad stress, which the bagging you described certainly didn't help. And as for that store, well, I'd be tempted to educate the staff with a pickaxe handle ... grrr.

If I ran a fish store, and had a customer like you come in, who was knowledgeable and cared about fish, I'd make damn sure that any fishes that were shipped out to you were done so in decent conditions. Hell, a big order like that and I'd probably have driven them to your home in a 24 inch aquarium on the back seat just to make sure!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

There is no denying that a lot of Bacteria can not survive in a salty environment, Patty. I'm just trying to suggest that in a river, there is little to no salt, yet fish get cuts and the like all of the time and heal. The difference with the river is the flow of water, clean water. By keeping their wounds clean andtheir environment, they heal quicker and their body fights off infections naturally. I don't think it's accurate to start comparing the effects of treatments between species. I'm sure you wouldn't give your fish asprin...

I'm not trying to say your water conditions are bad, or you're anything but religious about water changes, but i suspect there are people reading this thread who don't subscribe quite so closely to the standards we do. I just thought it was important to draw attention to the fact that a lot of problems in our tanks can be cured by proper care of water rather than addition of chemicals, even if they are 'natural'.

I'm sure after reading this thread and your responses there was simply nothing you could have done for your ill fish, and it was most likely a genetic flaw in this fish and not the others. I'd gladly buy fish from you with such a great attitude toward their care and breeding!