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I suggest you quarantine them as soon as possible. Also adding rock salt to your quarantine tank would be a good idea.

Pictures are not required for advanced mouth fungus...

The trop will no longer be able to feed and that, of course, is a death sentence.

I've never seen the advanced variety reversed because of the severe damage caused.

--garyroland.

Do you have plants or inverts in this tank, like snails? What kind of scaleless fish do you have (cories, plecs etc.). In fact, list all of the fish you have with quantities of each. What size is the tank?

P - what temperature is your tank at? When mouth fungus (columnaris bacteria) has infected a fish, it is best to make sure the temp is less than 77F. A good target is 75F unless you have some type of fish, like Clown Loaches that requires higher temps. If you are up there, like around 80, target a 1F change every 12 hours until you get to the desired range.

Columnaris does not like salt.

Ideally, the infected fish should be quarantined and any that have lost considerable tissue should be humanely euthanized. I had to do this with a rasbora that lost all it's face all the way up to its eyeballs in under 12 hours from this bacteria. There are rapid forms of it and chronic or slower moving forms. Temp and pH can affect it's virulence, but don't mess with pH.

You can easily quarantine using a rubbermaid bin that has never been used with chemicals or soaps. Transfer as much of the original tanks water into the tank without depleting more than 25 or 30% of the original tank's water. Refill the original tank with freshly conditioned water, same temp (don't alter overall temp more than +/- 1F to avoid ich or causing more bacterial infections). Slowly add water to the bin to make up the difference the same way, but since more freshwater may be needed, do a small amount over several hours. Drop in an airstone, a fake plant, cover and keep in a warm room and you have a quarantine.

Since the bacteria doesn't like salt, you can use this with antibiotic. I recommend switching to Maracyn. For the salt, dissolve it slowly by using a small disposable Glad container with some holes poked into it. Put 1 rounded Tbsp of freshwater aquarium salt like Doc Wellstone (rocks) in the container and sink it. The rocks will slowly dissolve, gradually increasing the salinity.

YOu can do this in your main aquarium, but if you have scaleless fish, you will want to use half the salt. This is why it is better in quarantine. Also, Columnaris is highly contagious. Some strains can kill in an 8 hour work or school day and if a fish should die in the main tank where others will naturally feed on it, they are much more likley to contract it themselves. It can wipe out a tank.

For euthanasia, everyone has their preferred method. I continue to use Clove Oil when all hope is lost. Like Gary said, if a good portion of the mouth is gone, the fish will be unable to eat and will slowly starve to death.

YOu can buy clove oil at any health food store and at some pharmacies. I use a baby medicine syringe to measure 9 mL and I mix that with about a cup of tank water in an oversized bottle so I can shake it vigrously. I put the fish in a container of tank water (about 1/2 to 1 gallon, the slowly pour the mixed solution in. Within about 10-15 seconds the fish will fall to its side. It goes unconscious. Lesser amounts are used to perform surgery on larger fish at this stage, but we overdose to put them to sleep permanently. Since it is used as an anesthetic, you need to follow through by leaving them in the solution for a longer period of time (30-60 minutes), then put them in the freezer with some tank water or sever the head. This is because they can regain consciousness in freshwater (like the toilet if they are not dead from overexposure) .

DO NOT share equipment with the quarantine tank once you transfer fish and always wash hands thoroughly between tanks. Sterilize any equipment when done.

What is the pH? And, are these fish new additions (within the last few days)?

I know this is alot, but I'm the kind of person that needed details. I hope it helps.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Dec-2004 19:51

Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Dec-2004 19:52

I would not put them into the ten gallon with guppies if the guppies are not sick. Otherwise, you'll be exposing the guppies to a horrendous condition.

How big is this main tank? Maybe it is not overstocked.

Many dollar stores sell rubbermaid bins quite cheaply. If you take one from the middle of the pile, it is less risk of having been contaminated with pollutants from the air in the store. Rinse it really well. A cheap 6 dollar air pump, some air tubing with a check valve (unless you place the pump higher than the water line to prevent back flow), and an air stone should do it.

If your tank is small and has too many fish (if it is truly overstocked), you really don't want to pile in a bunch of meds. However, if it is slightly understocked you may want to treat in the tank. You can use salt, but I would use only half strength with cories. Do like I said above for a slow dissolve. However, if you don't have a container, you can dissolve the salt quickly in about a half cup of conditioned/dechlorinated hot water. I do this in a used water 16 oz water bottle. Once dissolved, I add cool water. Then, I dribble in some of the solution throughout the day to raise the salinity slowly. All water chemistry/salinity changes that occur gradually are easiest and safest on the fish. Abrupt changes in temp, chemistry, or salinity is stressful.

Gradual is important. If cories and other fish tolerante the half dose of salt well, then you may be able to add a little more the next day. I would go less than full strength. Full strength would be one rounded Tbsp per 5 gallons. Don't use table salt. Use freshwater aquarium salt from the fish store. YOu don't want the iodine in the water from table salt.

Your pH is working in your favor against the columnaris, but not entirely. I have nearly 8.0 pH and columnaris moves fast in that high of pH. Columnaris has a hard time surviving in less than 7.0 pH. But DO NOT mess with the pH. It's just good to know that the columnaris won't move as fast as it would in my water.

However, your temperature is helping the columnaris. You can slow it's progression down by dropping the temp the way I said - 1F every 12 hours. This may be difficult with heaters, but just be gentle and give an ever-so-slightly turn down. Repeat again every morning and night until the tank is around 75-76F. They will do fine. I keep my tanks at around 74-75 year round. The trick is to never expose them to a rapid change of several degrees during water changes or by exposing the tank to cold or warm air in a way that would alter temp rapidly.

Give us the gallons of your tank and tell me how long the tank is (inches if possible) and how wide it is. We can do some simple calculations to see if you are overstocked.

I just looked at your profile and spotted the 29 gal tank. That should be 30 x 12.

The basic formula for the type of fish you have is (L X W) then divide that number by 12. Your's is easy if one of the dimensions is 12. You can have 30 inches of fish.

I've calculated about 44 inches give or take an inch or two. So, definitely overstocked.

While you may be able to keep parameters in check, the crowding situation can cause stress. Stress leads to illness because their immunity drops. There are alway pathogens in any tank, even the least crowded and cleanest of them. However, infection requires a fish's immunity to drop before it can grip them. Temperature stress, overcrowding, starvation, improper tank mates can all do this.

Nets should be thoroughly sanitized before using between tanks or use separate nets for different tanks.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Dec-2004 21:50

OK - what are you medicating them with, maracyn?

Keep that temp lower by dropping 1F every 12 hours and keep it below 77F (76 or 75 are good targets). This will help them to combat it.

Ability to eat is an important consideration. It's good they are eating.

Keep us posted.

Most likely they have a true fungus, Diane, not Columnaris.

--garyroland.

Sounds like it's responding to the meds. True Fungus wouldn't respond to an antiseptic and an antimicrobial and dropping the temp certainly wouldn't help true fungus. My money is on Columnaris. The the Fungus Clear may have started to work and just needed to be treated longer. Follow instructions for a second round if you see any evidence of it still there.

Make sure you check ammonia and nitrite in the tank they are in. I would let them settle from the infection if they don't look stressed in that tank, then transfer them. And, here's how I would do it....

Target a day next week when you want to move the fish. A few days before, do a gravel vac on the quarantine tank removing about 15% of the water. Replace that water with water from the main tank (without doing a gravel vac). Repeat this process daily, and do one more change about an hour before you move them.

This may seem overboard, but it's a less stressful way to move back to the home tank where the water "tastes" differently. Even if you don't have pH differences, every tank is unique in it's flavor . It also brings them out of a salinity situation, back to the main tank salinity, whatever that is.

Match the temp of the two tanks and, whatever you do, don't subject them to a sudden rise or drop in temp of even a few degrees. Using the same temp gage, you can easily see when the two tanks are within 1F of each other. Try to limit changes to 1F every 12-24 hours.

The bottom line: All changes gradual yield better results.

Make sure you soak your nets thoroughly in a supersaline, hot water overnight, especially if it was used to remove them when they had the infection going. Then, I would do up to 3 days of melafix after the transfer in case they get net -scrapes, which can restart the infection. The melafix will work as an antiseptic.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Dec-2004 17:38

The "mouth falling off" description was a little dramatic and most likely not accurate...

True mouth fungus that advanced does not respond to Melafix or the other concoctions on the market.

The fish cannot eat and starve to death.

--garyroland.