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Hello everyone, my name is Val...I'm new to the board. :-) I got a Black Lionhead Goldfish about 2 months ago. He's been doing good, and has been very happy in the tank. The only problems I have had with the tank thus far is the ammonia level...no matter what I have tried, the level will not seem to reach the "safe" zone. I have invested a lot of money in ammonia detoxifiers, only to have to add them every day in order to keep the level somewhat down from toxic. This has been extremely expensive, being that I use the detoxifiers quickly by adding them daily or once every other day...
Now I have a much more serious problem. Over the past few days my fish has gotten these white things all over it...I'm not even exactly sure how to describe them! They are literally stuck to him, he is completely covered. He seems to be acting funny as well. Does anyone have any idea what this could be?? I am very worried and don't know what to do. I have changed the water and it does not seem to help. :-( Thank you so much!

Hi Gus and welcome to fishkeeping and to fishprofiles.com . You landed in the right place.

What you are experiencing is a cycling tank or one that is too small for the fish. What is cycling?

When you put fish into a tank they produce ammonia (pee, poop, food, respiration). A good bacteria develops in new tanks that eats ammonia and we want that. When the good bacterial colony has grown big enough to eat ammonia as fast as it is made, we get a reading of zero - the only "safe" level.

However, that ammonia eating bacteria then makes a waste product called Nitrite. Nitrite, like ammonia is toxic to the fish. We want a second good bacterial colony to develop so that the nitrite is eaten as fast as it is made too. This makes it zero. Once that is achieved, you begin to see the waste product of that second good bacteria - NitrAte. Nitrates are not really toxic provided they are kept to reasonable levels. For goldfish in non-planted tanks, the target is less than 40ppm. Ideal is less than 20.

So, the question becomes how big is your tank? How long has it been running?

The white spots are likely a parasite called Ich. The problem now is that any meds we use will kill off the good bacteria you are trying to grow. Ammonia detoxifiers will also slow the cycle somewhat so it is good not to use them too much. Also, many of those ammonia detox products will give you very high "False-Positive" numbers. So, you may not have ammonia even tho it is reading so. YOu may be more into your nitrite phase if it has been going on a while.

Dealing with the ich, if you have no snails, I consider a product like Rid Ich Plus. It has formalin in it which is a gas, so you don't want to change the temp any higher. The higher the temp the less o2 there is in the water. Add a gas and it gets worse. Fish with ich often get body fungus infections. Rid Ich has something in it to address that.

Water changes are important, but you must keep the water temp the same after the change as it was before. A drop of 3-5 degrees even can bring on an ich attack. Try to stay within 1-1.5 F.

So, answer my questions and we'll get back. If you have a goldfish in one of those tiny tanks they sell like 2.5 gallons, you really need to consider upgrading. Even a 10 gallon is only temporary. For this reason, they don't make good desktop fish - it is a fallacy that they can live will in bowls for very long. Goldies can live for 10-20 years in proper tanks.

If you should lose goldie to ich, please don't give up on the hobby. We can teach you some things, including what kind of fish to get for the size tank you can handle at this time.

Lets start there. I'll be back later.

Diane

Last edited by Cory_Di at 26-Mar-2005 13:11

Hi Val welcome to the board!

First I would like the know the size of the tank.
Second What are your readings? eg. Ammonia/NitrIte/NitrAte
Third What other fish do u have in the tank?
fourth do u have a filter?

Seems to me like u haven't cycled your tank.
Here's and article that might make u understand morehttp://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/begin-cycling.asp
U shouldn't be only worrying about your ammonia levels because there is also nitrIte(ammonia breaks down to thisless toxic) then nitrAte(nitrIte breaks down to this even more less toxic. Afterwards water changes or plantes would removes these "nitrAtes" This is what we call a cycle.

The ammonia detoxifiers don't really get ride of your ammonia it just detoxifies it. The ammonia is still there after the detoxifiers nullify.

For the white spots; mosty probably ICH/ICK
http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/disease/ich.asp
It's probably from your poor water quality. Ammonia normally weakens your fish's immunie system and bang he is sick.

Right now i would concentrate on water changes every day probably 25% and get some meds for ICH/ICK at your lfs.
We can help u further if u provide us more info.

Gee

EDIT: Diane beat me to it

Last edited by BigGee168 at 26-Mar-2005 13:26

Gee

!!I think I just learned somthing new!!

First of all welcome to FP!

Now what size of tank is it we are dealing with? Keeping in mind that any and all goldfish need at least 20 gallons of water.

Was your tank cycled when you first added you fish? If not that in itself can be the problem...If you haven't cycled your tank, then you an by bacteria starter and this will help get your tank there a bit faster, while keeping the water safer for the fish involved. Also adding the Ammonia Removers that you have been adding to your tank are just going to be wasting your money and giving you false readings, I'm sorry to say So take care of your cycling, and you're going to have to be doing water changes while doing so, so it will take a bit longer, but will be easier on your fish than it is now.

Now getting to the white spots that appear to be stuck on your goldie...do they look like white grands of salt stuck to him? If so it appears that you have Ich. Ich is caused by the temperature rising and falling in a tank too much, too often...you will need to get a thermometer, and heater for the tank (think 5 watts per gallon of tank) The meds you are going to be needing to get rid if Ich Rid +...

That should help...let us know what else you need to know...Best of luck, heidi

Last edited by heidi at 26-Mar-2005 13:28

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Thank you guys so much for replying so fast!! You've already helped me tons. :-) Alright, to answer some of your questions...

My tank is 20 gallons. My goldfish is the only fish in there as of right now, I am planning on adding another fish once I get this problem sorted out. When I first got the tank, I let it "cycle" for approximately 2 weeks. Throughout those 2 weeks, I had 2 comet goldfish in there. The workers at the pet store told me that having regular comet goldfish in a starter tank will help to cycle it faster.

I do have a filter, it came with the tank. So you think I should do 25% water changes daily? I have only been doing them weekly, but I can see how doing them more often will help. As for the white bumps, they do look a little like grains of salt. The odd thing is, this happened once before, but not as drastic. They only covered a small area of my fish, and disappeared after a water change. This time he hardly even looks black! :-/ I will check out the Ich medication, but will it harm the pH, nitrite, nitrate, etc. levels too much?

Thank you all so much again, you have no idea how much this helps!!

Ok you need to get the ich meds- do a water change Before adding, then follow the directions on the bottle.

If you have a common goldy- he needs a pond as he can get 18 in long

If you have a fancy- a pond is still best- but at minimu needs a 76 gal tank- after this is over- you need to 1- get your fish a MUCH larger tank, or 2- find him a pond

Hey gus, 20 gallons is not too bad of size for a temporary home to one goldfish. Fancy varieties like fantails, black moores, orandas, ryukins don't get as big as common goldfish.

Two weeks is no guarantee that your cycle finished. It is a process. Lets not add any more detoxifiers into the tank and just use a regular conditioner for chlorine/chloramine. If it is something like Prime or Amquel Plus, then just dose as much as needed for the amount of water you add. Again, it is highly critical to keep that temp within 1-1.5F when doing a water change.

Your goldfish can pull through, but ich can also kill, especially if it gets into the gills and the fish is covered massively. Here is a KPD sheet from Kordon on their Rid Ich Plus

http://www.novalek.com/kpd38.htm

At the bottom there is a link that explains ick and its lifecycle. There is something important to know about ich - the spots on the fish cannot be "cured" with any medication - none. Those are embedded and with time - generally a few days, they will fall off of the fish to the tank bottom where they will eventually evolve to many more like themselves. Each one will hatch out many more swarmers that will look for a host (namely your goldie). . So, it is critical to have the med in the water for up to a week after you see the last spot.

A tank is fully cycled when ammonia is zero, nitrite is zero and nitrates are rising. 10ppm is a good indication. Once again, the ammonia you see could simply be the result of a false positive test from your ammonia detoxifiers. Amquel, Amquel Plus will do this, Prime is capable, as is Ammo-Lock, among others. I got one using Bio-Safe for conditioning.

Exactly what products have you been adding?

EDIT: You stated above that the fish is a black lionhead so that is a fancy variety.

Many people keep them in home tanks but you need to be prepared to get him into something bigger in time. I have two in a 36 gallon bowfront and my nitrates rise quickly. Therefore, I am faced with water changes of about 40% twice weekly to keep them below 40ppm. It's possible in smaller tanks, but more work and less comfy for a large fish. Sorry to say that a 20 gallon is no place for two goldfish. He can get very big.



Last edited by Cory_Di at 26-Mar-2005 17:33

To put it in perspective here you go. Below is an oranda.

They will grow very rapidly inside of two years. 20 gallon is the minimum size required for a single fancy goldfish and is still not optimal.



Cory_Di attached this image:


Last edited by Cory_Di at 26-Mar-2005 17:31[/font]

What else can I add....Diane

Good luck val

Gee

Gee

!!I think I just learned somthing new!!

Yikes. That is one HUGE Oranda. NEVER seen one that big before.

Thanks for the pic Cory_Di, you've managed to educate me /:'

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

That pic is from the net and I should cite the source. Granted, this is a real competitor for guiness . But, the point is that goldfish get big. Maybe they don't get as big as Bruce, but they will come close, and grow fast. I can barely keep up with water changes on the 36 gallon with two fancies. I have had to go to twice weekly at about 50% to keep nitrates below 40ppm.

Story of Bruce



Last edited by Cory_Di at 27-Mar-2005 22:00

Well, I took a trip to the pet store today to get some meds for Gus. I looked at two places and could not find the Rid Ich Plus...but I did find a med called Nox-Ich. It seems to be about the same thing as Rid Ich Plus. I put the first dose in today...the directions on the back of the bottle say that I should add one dose per day for 3 consecutive days and then stop. I'm hoping this will work! I'm a little confused though...if this product works, will the the problem be completely solved, or will it just be cured for a short while? I saw another product at the store that you use to prevent Ich. Then again, they have those for everything...ammonia, pH levels, etc. so I wasn't sure if I should buy that to continue adding after this current treatment.

I also bought some aquarium salt, which some of the workers recommended. They said it helps overall, but especially when fish are being treated for a disease...it helps speed up their recovery. Thanks for all your help!!

Last edited by gus1221 at 28-Mar-2005 15:07

Nox-Ich should be fine for a goldfish. If you ever buy an ich med that does not address scaleless or sensitive fish and you have them, then use half dose to be safe. But goldie should be able to tolerate half strength.

Either way, watch for signs of stress. Severely infested fish can have trouble breathing already, then when we add a med with formalin in it, it makes it even harder to breathe. Just don't raise the temp right now. Keep it steady. If you see him swimming erratically, disoriented, darting, or gasping after dosing, do a partial water change to dilute it some.

What you will need to do is use it for 3 days, then probably break a few days then start up again. Remember, you cannot kill spots on the fish. SPOTS ON THE FISH FALL OFF NATURALLY WITH TIME. It is what happens after they fall. ICH MED NEEDS TO BE IN THE WATER FOR UP TO 7 DAYS AFTER YOU SEE THE LAST SPOT, especially if your temp is around 70F or so.

Does it list ingredients? The salt is good. In fact, salt can be used alone. I would advise using a 0.3% salt solution. VERY IMPORTANT: Measure just one level teaspon per gallon and predissolve it. Add it gradually throughout the day. This is equal to 0.1%. Do this again tomorrow and the next day. Three times 0.1% = 0.3%. We must increase and decrease salinity gradually. By having the 0.3% salt solution in the tank, you may not need to dose Nox-Ich after 3 days. Goldfish are tolerant of even higher doses of salt, but this is how we start. If it is the rock type, it will predissolve easiest in very hot tap water. Just keep stirring it, then let it cool. Make sure you add dechlorinator when adding it to the tank.